Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)

[Pogue Mahone]

It's really not. The problem we're specifically complaining about today is directly to do with the PL's interpretation of VAR as opposed to VAR as a concept, as proven by the other competitions where subjective referee decisions like the various penalty calls we've seen actually do get overturned. Hell, even the contrast between PL VAR and the VAR system we initially got at the WC makes that clear.

I get that the anti-VAR crowd want to crow a bit but there's no need to dumb down the argument by pretending VAR in one league isn't substantially different to VAR in another league, or that the PL's version doesn't have its own specific problems.

But your solution to VAR really is more VAR.

Opponents to all this nonsense are primarily motivated by the way it’s ruining the flow of the game, grinding to a halt every time there’s a significant incident in the box, while confusion reigns on the pitch and in the stands. We never gave much of a shit about this burning sense of injustice VAR proponents used to feel over human error.

To end up being told - just two weeks into the season - that the only thing stopping VAR from being a success is that there’s not enough of it is fecking hilarious.

 

[giorno]

The man in charge of it all has confirmed himself that the referee won't be overruled on his decision by var, if his reasons ''replicate what VAR is looking at''. It's there in black and white above.

"What did you see?" "I saw the defender rugby tackling martial. Good tackle for me, got me in the mood to watch england smash those irish pricks" "it checks out, also yeah, we look amazing. Think we'll win the world cup?"

As someone else pointed out, the PL can not change the threshold now as it would make the season hilariously inbalanced. So we either have a year of this shit or a year where the league is more unfair than ever. Cheers VAR.

Well no. It's still going to be fairer than ever because there won't be offside goals

Opponents to all this nonsense are primarily motivated by the way it’s ruining the flow of the game, grinding to a halt every time there’s a significant incident in the box, while confusion reigns on the pitch and in the stands. We never gave much of a shit about this burning sense of injustice VAR proponents used to feel over human error.

To end up being told - just two weeks into the season - that the only thing stopping VAR from being a success is that there’s not enough of it is fecking hilarious.

This really is a case of "damn foriners ruining our game!"

You brits maybe never gave much shit about refereeing mistakes. I assure, here in southern europe it's all we've ever talked about

 

[Pogue Mahone]

"What did you see?" "I saw the defender rugby tackling martial. Good tackle for me, got me in the mood to watch england smash those irish pricks" "it checks out, also yeah, we look amazing. Think we'll win the world cup?"

Well no. It's still going to be fairer than ever because there won't be offside goals


This really is a case of "damn foriners ruining our game!"

You brits maybe never gave much shit about refereeing mistakes. I assure, here in southern europe it's all we've ever talked about

I’m not British.

But yeah, maybe there is a cultural difference in being unable to accept that mistakes happen and repeatedly seeing corruption instead of human fallibility. Hence Fergie got annoyed over referees being physically unfit, while Mourinho preferred to allude to dark forces working against him.

 

[Wumminator]

"What did you see?" "I saw the defender rugby tackling martial. Good tackle for me, got me in the mood to watch england smash those irish pricks" "it checks out, also yeah, we look amazing. Think we'll win the world cup?"

Well no. It's still going to be fairer than ever because there won't be offside goals


This really is a case of "damn foriners ruining our game!"

You brits maybe never gave much shit about refereeing mistakes. I assure, here in southern europe it's all we've ever talked about

If you can watch this weekends fixtures and say that the refs are better than ever, you’re mental.

There have been at least four penalty decisions not given this weekend that were blatant.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Thing is var isn’t even going to change that feeling many feel when a ref gives 50/50’s all to the home team for example. That’s always still going to be there, now you have inconsistencies with var every single week as it’s another ref looking at a replay each game & every goal is more of an anti climax for me now knowing var is checking them all incase of a 1mm offside In the build up.

I think people who supported it on the beginning didn’t realise it’s just never going to work in football & have been sold a lie

 

[RochaRoja]

I don't even know what is the point of VAR if Martial wasn't even awarded that blatant penalty.

So goals can be disallowed for a striker’s shoelace being offside of course.

 

[giorno]

If you can watch this weekends fixtures and say that the refs are better than ever, you’re mental.

There have been at least four penalty decisions not given this weekend that were blatant.

Who said refs are better than ever?

Yeah, there were a number of horrible decisions, none of whom saw VAR's intervention. So those bad decisions are still happening and will keep happen, same as it's always been. Nevertheless VAR has corrected a number of bad decisions already. All relating to offside/handball, but those are initially wrong decisions that were corrected thanks to VAR. So yeah, even just with that we can expect this season there will be fewer refereeing mistakes than ever

 

[sullydnl]

But your solution to VAR really is more VAR.

Opponents to all this nonsense are primarily motivated by the way it’s ruining the flow of the game, grinding to a halt every time there’s a significant incident in the box, while confusion reigns on the pitch and in the stands. We never gave much of a shit about this burning sense of injustice VAR proponents used to feel over human error.

To end up being told - just two weeks into the season - that the only thing stopping VAR from being a success is that there’s not enough of it is fecking hilarious.

Right, so I wouldn't expect people who are anti-VAR to care about the differences between PL's VAR and VAR elsewhere. It's all bad as far as ye're concerned.

The post you quoted was reframing the pro-VAR argument though, which is different. The majority in this thread do care about the lack of fairness on the pitch, which makes the specific flaws of the PL's version of VAR relevant to our complaints. Especially when the particular incidents we're complaining about this weekend stem directly from those flaws. The idea that we're only blaming the PL because we don't want to blame VAR generally is silly given we can readily point to other less shit versions of VAR elsewhere.

It's not really about more VAR either, it's smarter VAR. As it is you're still getting delays for penalty incidents like yesterday's, you're just not getting the right decison either. It's the worst of both worlds instead of at least giving those who want VAR what they want.

 

[montpelier]

The best thing thing it's done so far is confirm Michael ''Big Decision'' Oliver as the incompetent toolbox we knew he was already.

But now supported by a 2nd bloke who says, ''we'll carry on, but did you not see that, Mike?''

Or so it seems.

 

[bleedred]

Who said refs are better than ever?

Yeah, there were a number of horrible decisions, none of whom saw VAR's intervention. So those bad decisions are still happening and will keep happen, same as it's always been. Nevertheless VAR has corrected a number of bad decisions already. All relating to offside/handball, but those are initially wrong decisions that were corrected thanks to VAR. So yeah, even just with that we can expect this season there will be fewer refereeing mistakes than ever

Yeah, we will get fewer mistakes. But the problem is that the way these mistakes are rectified is creating a bias in each game.

For example, without VAR a ref makes 4 mistakes, 2 for team A and 2 for Team B.
With VAR, 2 mistakes are corrected for Team B, but VAR intervenes only for 1 decision of Team A. So,your argument still holds, with VAR corrected three mistakes in the game."Hail VAR". But the net result is not fair by any means and its creating a bias. Also its not a hypothetical scenario, its happening every week.

No matter how shit a ref is, human error in a game is acceptable. But with tech, assisting the ref, they got to make a better system so as its not biased.

 

[hasanejaz88]

For people asking about VAR implementation elsewhere, in the BL on Sunday in the Berlin vs Wolfsburg match there was an incident where a penalty was awarded to Berlin but the referee reversed his decision after being notified by VAR that it looked like the defender touched the ball, after which the ref went and saw that it was indeed the case.

The decision was rightly reversed, I was watching highlights so I can't exactly say how long the process took.

EDIT: apparently it took around one and a half minutes to make the decision. Which is barely 30 seconds more than a normal penalty so it's perfectly fine.

 

[giorno]

Yeah, we will get fewer mistakes. But the problem is that the way these mistakes are rectified is creating a bias in each game.

For example, without VAR a ref makes 4 mistakes, 2 for team A and 2 for Team B.
With VAR, 2 mistakes are corrected for Team B, but VAR intervenes only for 1 decision of Team A. So,your argument still holds, with VAR corrected three mistakes in the game."Hail VAR". But the net result is not fair by any means and its creating a bias. Also its not a hypothetical scenario, its happening every week.

No matter how shit a ref is, human error in a game is acceptable. But with tech, assisting the ref, they got to make a better system so as its not biased.

Absolutely

But your point here is "more mistakes are fairer". Two wrongs make a right.

The clubs or the PL or whoever has the power needs to step up and tell the FA that the current "ref decide when he needs to review a play" is arse backwards bonkers and implement VAR the way it is *meant* to work, with VAR telling the ref to review a situation when they feel he might change his decision

I haven't checked hard numbers, but from what i've seen the majority of the time when VAR tells the ref to review an action, the ref ends up changing his call

 

[bleedred]

Absolutely

But your point here is "more mistakes are fairer". Two wrongs make a right.

The clubs or the PL or whoever has the power needs to step up and tell the FA that the current "ref decide when he needs to review a play" is arse backwards bonkers and implement VAR the way it is *meant* to work, with VAR telling the ref to review a situation when they feel he might change his decision

I haven't checked hard numbers, but from what i've seen the majority of the time when VAR tells the ref to review an action, the ref ends up changing his call

Nope. That's not what I said. I meant to say, "Less mistakes doesn't mean the game is fair".

 

[RK]

With the evidence so far, there's an argument that VAR has led to referees being less likely to make critical calls to intervene. Maybe their subconscious logic is "VAR will catch it if I'm wrong" or "VAR will back me up if it's questionable". It's always easier to not make a decision and play on than to make the hard call.

So there's an argument that VAR is actually making refereeing worse in its current form.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

With the evidence so far, there's an argument that VAR has led to referees being less likely to make critical calls to intervene. Maybe their subconscious logic is "VAR will catch it if I'm wrong" or "VAR will back me up if it's questionable". It's always easier to not make a decision and play on than to make the hard call.

So there's an argument that VAR is actually making refereeing worse in its current form.

I agree with this, big calls they are pussying out. Is this actually the worse weekend in memory for obvious penalties not being given? The city one blatant, the martial one obvious, Kane for me was but I’ve seen others disagree. There were others.

Problem is no one at stockley park is reversing anything.

 

[sherrinford]

With the evidence so far, there's an argument that VAR has led to referees being less likely to make critical calls to intervene. Maybe their subconscious logic is "VAR will catch it if I'm wrong" or "VAR will back me up if it's questionable". It's always easier to not make a decision and play on than to make the hard call.

So there's an argument that VAR is actually making refereeing worse in its current form.

It does look like this from the outside, but surely it can’t be? Referees not making decisions under the impression that VAR will address what needs to be addressed, while the VAR ref refuses to intervene and overturn an on-pitch refereeing decision, is a disaster.

 

[awop]

There's just no way it stays like that for the whole season. Games are going to come fast + European games where PL clubs will have a completely different experience + Boxing day. An uproar is inevitable if they keep avoiding making calls. As inept as they are it's clear as day that they've been told not to do anything. Wether it's a veiled boycott or plain idiocy don't matter. I fear that a blunder in a big game is needed so somebody speaks up. I don't think Guardiola or Klopp will manage to keep smiling if those situations happens again.

 

[Thunderhead]

There's just no way it stays like that for the whole season. Games are going to come fast + European games where PL clubs will have a completely different experience + Boxing day. An uproar is inevitable if they keep avoiding making calls. As inept as they are it's clear as day that they've been told not to do anything. Wether it's a veiled boycott or plain idiocy don't matter. I fear that a blunder in a big game is needed so somebody speaks up. I don't think Guardiola or Klopp will manage to keep smiling if those situations happens again.

Was the pen not given in the city spurs game not high profile enough? Var as it is, is now in for the season they can't change anything now

 

[Rafaeldagold]

I’m glad all my ‘scaremongering’ about VAR turned out to be just that.

 

[Verminator]

Apologies for the source but...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/9801754/premier-league-var-penalty/amp

"Yet fans, managers and players were left shaking their heads, and Gallagher’s explanation summed up the apparent confusion.

The issue is that refs’ chief Mike Riley’s determination to avoid “re-refereeing” on “subjective” — or judgement — calls appears to have been viewed as a cop-out option for the VAR teams.

Top-flight clubs, worried by the rash of harsh calls when VAR was rolled out in European competitions, were strongly in favour of the less interventionist approach.

But changes are possible if they lobby for action."

 

[Mb194dc]

I was hopeful VAR would improve the refereeing in the premier league and make it fairer. So far it's been a total shambles though and done the opposite.

When you look at City so far this season, having had two clear penalties denied already in 3 games, plus having two goals chalked off for tiny infringements. Then you watch the Utd game from this weekend... and compare the penalty Salah got for a minor shirt pull which didn't even interrupt his play to Martial incidents. In our game against Norwich, Azpilicueta got taken down by Stiepermann and was also a clear penalty, plus he'd already been booked.

The "disappearing" offside decisions, where flag is raised by the linesman and then the broadcaster just never show it again and it's never mentioned again, by anyone?.... Happened to Maddison for Leicester in our game against them, and to Martial against Wolves.

Granted I only watch Chelsea games, and the other top 6 sometimes. So many bad calls in the few games I do watch, VAR has made it worse, given there is a way to sort these issues and they just deliberately don't use it?

Then you read the media who cover the premier league, they just mainly ignore it too. Nothing on ESPN, BBC, football365 at all. It's all just airbrushed out of existence.

VAR in the premier league is abysmal and no point in having it unless they're going to use it properly.

I watch lots of European football as well and it seems to work fine.

Just baffling.

 

[Flying high]

I was hopeful VAR would improve the refereeing in the premier league and make it fairer. So far it's been a total shambles though and done the opposite.

When you look at City so far this season, having had two clear penalties denied already in 3 games, plus having two goals chalked off for tiny infringements. Then you watch the Utd game from this weekend... and compare the penalty Salah got for a minor shirt pull which didn't even interrupt his play to Martial incidents. In our game against Norwich, Azpilicueta got taken down by Stiepermann and was also a clear penalty, plus he'd already been booked.

The "disappearing" offside decisions, where flag is raised by the linesman and then the broadcaster just never show it again and it's never mentioned again, by anyone?.... Happened to Maddison for Leicester in our game against them, and to Martial against Wolves.

Granted I only watch Chelsea games, and the other top 6 sometimes. So many bad calls in the few games I do watch, VAR has made it worse, given there is a way to sort these issues and they just deliberately don't use it?

Then you read the media who cover the premier league, they just mainly ignore it too. Nothing on ESPN, BBC, football365 at all. It's all just airbrushed out of existence.

VAR in the premier league is abysmal and no point in having it unless they're going to use it properly.

I watch lots of European football as well and it seems to work fine.

Just baffling.

I suspect there's been some level of agreement to give it a couple of months, then assess where we are.

Fair enough I guess. I just wish this had all been sorted before putting into important competitions.

A big part of my own concerns was that reading up on how the PL planned to implement VAR left many questions and scenarios unclear. Now we can see that's because they actually hadn't planned properly. So any benefit of the doubt appears misplaced.

 

[RochaRoja]

Interesting read for those who believe the technology in other sports is flawless and definitive: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/ben-stokes-was-out-or-was-he-20190827-p52lbo.html

But, yeah, those millimeter offside calls VAR is making are definitely 100% accurate, right?

 

[Dennis_Law]

Here are my views on VAR three weeks into the season: it is essentially a good thing, but these are early days and it needs tweaking - with a standard set system used in all leagues and all tournements. For example, does anyone know: in the 2018 World Cup when VAR was used it was the on-pitch referee who went to a telly at the side to view the replay. Whereas in the premiership it is done somewhere else (Heathrow I heard on one commentary). Is this to make it speedier? because that is important, but the downside is this: if the VAR referee is one of the other regular premier refs, in more cases than not the original decision will not be changed, because in effect it would be like a co-worker undermining a colleague and I think we saw that in the Wolves vs Utd game last week. Is the VAR ref a current referee? perhaps they could use older ex-refs who have plenty of experience but are too old to keep up with the play.

I have noticed 2 positives though so far, although one may actually be a negative - a caller rang one of the phone-in shows exasperated with VAR because it meant he felt he could no longer celebrate his team scoring when the ball hit the net, he had to wait for confirmation, this is a particular problem at certain grounds where some seats don't have a view of the large screen(s). The counter argument to this is fans get to celebrate twice, I noticed this with one of the games at the weekend - once as the goal is scored and again when VAR says "OK"....

Finally, I did notice one big plus from VAR in I think the second week of fixtures. I can't remember the game but a defender committed a foul in the box and unlike previous years, there was no screaming, shouting, gesturing to the ref etc. he just accepted that there was no point as VAR would show it for what it was: a definite penalty. This could help change the way football is viewed as a sport in general - we often hear how rugby players, cricketers, golfers and women football players show more respect to the officials, compared with our game.

 

[sullydnl]

I’m glad all my ‘scaremongering’ about VAR turned out to be just that.

The key difference between your scaremongering and what's happening in the PL is:

I watch lots of European football as well and it seems to work fine.

There's a difference between being against VAR and against the PL's VAR, the latter of which should be a unifying position to hold.

 

[MikeKing]

Don't see the point of VAR if we can't overturn blatantly obvious decisions. It seems there's a bias towards the referees initial call which renders the video evidence a bit pointless. It shouldn't be to correct some facts the referee missed but also be capable of correcting his poor judgment. Who takes the VAR call - a different ref or the main ref?

Because the Martial penalty was clear and obvious in any way possible. At every part of the ptich that's a foul. He absolutely killed the CB with his touch and was pulled to the floor. Seemed obvious they didn't want the referees call to be officially deemed incorrect.

They simply have to intervene in those situations. One ref gives a penalty for a pull against Salah, another one is not quite at the same level of refereeing and doesn't manage to spot or make a decision like that, even when it is right in front of him. VAR's main focus should be on working as a tool to correct the inconsistencies of how the rules is applied. Refs have to be out on that pitch, and run around. They are different persons who'll have different interpretations and at the same time can be affected by the crowd. VAR team can have papers, guidelines, rule-books, history of similar incidents, video and the whole shebang. They can work up a catalogue of how to interpret similar types of situations when they occur and follow it repeatedly, as closely as possible. By mastering this, they will have quick access to the right decision, and will confidently and rapidly report it to the ref. It is the only way of making it work.

By not being very specific in its nature and purpose, it does lead to confusion which impacts the game negatively for all parties. They need to go all in on this and be consistent, that way the public can adjust to it. People aren't going to adjust to a change that has proven to be inconsistent. It is really stupid to intervene one week then next week don't because of public outrage. Like how is that going to do anything else than cause more confusion.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

The key difference between your scaremongering and what's happening in the PL is:



There's a difference between being against VAR and against the PL's VAR, the latter of which should be a unifying position to hold.

So do you think it’s fair to have a system that works differently in different countries? When teams meet in European competition they’ll be used to different versions.

A system where it has all these inconsistencies isn’t a good system. And it always will as it’s just another ref looking at a replay. Unless you have the same guy looking at every match..

 

[R'hllor]

Haha wow you’ll never admit it’s not working will you. Pretty sad.

So what you’re saying is it’s not working so double down on it? Genius. It’ll still be those same ‘pricks’ looking at a replay.

The tide is turning on opinion once people see how awful & inconsistent it is each & every week.

You need to get some professional help, for real.

 

[MikeKing]

I do feel like too little is being made of the penalty incident against Crystal Palace. That whole hysteria of the marginal offsides really fecked up their perspective. They probably adjusted VAR after those marginal situations caused hysteria and doubt, to the point where they didn't want to use it on obvious fouls.... For one week only? Like... If it continues like this, then you'll basically have a panel of people that from week to week randomly is deciding who is going to win the league. Because no way in hell that it evens out. They can do it perfect from here on out and we'll not get those points back. We'll have to accept that, but they can't keep screwing teams over on purpose based on god knows what. Makes no sense and they need to be held accountable for decisions like that. Explain them, or admit they were mistakes and actually assure us that you're going to fix them.

 

[MikeKing]

You need to get some professional help, for real.

This VAR thing seems to have given his life a whole new meaning. Well, I'll applaud it if anything, no matter what keeps you ticking it is surely a healthy thing.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

You need to get some professional help, for real.

Ok ha. What a condescending knob

Want to actually answer any of the points though as your post was ridiculous- it’s not working so let’s have more of it with the same ‘pricks’ (as you nicely call refs) looking at the replays.

 

[R'hllor]

Ok ha. What a condescending knob

Want to actually answer any of the points though as your post was ridiculous- it’s not working so let’s have more of it with the same ‘pricks’ (as you nicely call refs) looking at the replays.

You are not well. Take care.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

This VAR thing seems to have given his life a whole new meaning. Well, I'll applaud it if anything, no matter what keeps you ticking it is surely a healthy thing.

Thank you good sir. I welcome your applause

You are not well. Take care.

I’m not well says the guy who can’t admit var is shit - that’s insanity.

Take care R’hllor, I hope you see the light one day

 

[sullydnl]

So do you think it’s fair to have a system that works differently in different countries? When teams meet in European competition they’ll be used to different versions.

A system where it has all these inconsistencies isn’t a good system. And it always will as it’s just another ref looking at a replay. Unless you have the same guy looking at every match..

Actually I don't, it irks me that there isn't a more standard interpretation for best practice with VAR. Even more so when you have a league like the PL (late to adopting VAR) not learning from mistakes other leagues have already made.

The counterargument I saw being made was that the likes of the CL and PL have always been reffed differently anyway (the classic idea that some challenges will get bookings in the CL but not the PL, for example) but I don't think that holds with a system like VAR.

 

[RedFish]

You are not well. Take care.

You're not winning the friendliest poster of the year award!

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Actually I don't, it irks me that there isn't a more standard interpretation for best practice with VAR. Even more so when you have a league like the PL (late to adopting VAR) not learning from mistakes other leagues have already made.

The counterargument I saw being made was that the likes of the CL and PL have always been reffed differently anyway (the classic idea that some challenges will get bookings in the CL but not the PL, for example) but I don't think that holds with a system like VAR.

I thought var was supposed to make things fairer though?
It’s funny that VAR gets all the excuses under the sun & referees get none.

 

[MisterLupus]

VAR is useless as long as the assistants operating it aren't allowed to overrule the ref - not even when his decisions are so obviously shite it's almost inconceivable. That was a cynical foul and a clear red card - last defender deliberately fouling someone who was through on goal in order to sabotage play - there are no "buts" of "ifs" there only a sending off - and Martial was wrongly denied an even clearer penalty despite the referee being positioned brilliantly.

Both times we got screwed by an incompetent ref - and both times VAR proved impotent. So why even bother with it at all? I'm as pro-VAR as we come I was sick of weak refereeing deciding the outcome of games already three decades ago - but it has to be consistent otherwise it's worthless.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

This version of VAR is absolute gash.

If blatant penalties can't be awarded as penalties then whats the feckin' point?

I think it was @noodlehair that said it feels like games are now going to be decided on whatever arbitrary reason that VAR people are going to decide to get involved in and what not to get involved in... which is spot on really. VAR has somehow managed to make games less fair then they were previously... which is quite remarkable when you think about it.

 

[fergiesarmy1]

Apparently the premier league are asking for feedback from clubs, don’t think they are going to like what comes back from Manchester

 

[romufc]

VAR has been absolutely shocking, I am all for VAR if the correct decision has been derived. But it is not correct if a similar occurrence happens in 2 different games and the decisions are different.

Salah v Arsenal = Penalty
Martial v Palace = No penalty

Because it is not clear and obvious error?

Was the City handball V Spurs Clear and obvious?

Was the Kane penalty appeal clear and obvious?

The only way it works is if there is a screen for the referee to go over and check it for himself.