Gio/Theon vs Moby - NT Peak draft

Who would win based on players performances in the listed tournaments?


  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
Which team would win based on players solely rated on their listed tournament performance?

-------------TEAM GIO/THEON------------------------------TEAM MOBY




TEAM GIO/THEON

PLAYER PROFILES

PETER SCHMEICHEL, EURO 1992

Regarded as the most influential goalkeeping performance of all time, Schmeichel dragged a workmanlike Danish side to success in the unlikeliest of circumstances. Having dispatched France and England in the group stages, he became increasingly unbeatable as the tournament wore on, producing two man-mountain displays against holders Holland in the semi-finals and world champions Germany in the final.

MATTHIAS SAMMER, EURO 1996
In what was perhaps the greatest libero tournament display of all, Sammer was Germany's best defender, midfielder and attacker all rolled into one package at Euro '96. Sammer's organisation saw Germany keep three clean sheets to stroll what had been coined the 'group of death' as a stacked Italy squad tumbled out of the tournament. The libero stepped up another gear in the quarter finals, almost single-handedly dismantling a brilliant Croatia side, winning the penalty for the opener then scoring the winner - both goals coming after trademark bursts forward to cut open the opposition like a hot knife through butter. His performances saw him fend off peak Ronaldo to earn the 1996 Ballon D'Or later that year.

GUIDO BUCHWALD, WORLD CUP 1990
A strong performer at Italia '90 illustrated most notably by shackling Diego Maradona in the final. Buchwald shone throughout and was an all-action hero in the crunch second round clash with Holland. Grizzly and physically dominant man-marker who played on the side of a back three and enjoyed great success at club level complementing Sammer for Stuttgart. His showing in the summer of 1990 was rewarded with an impressive 10th place in that year's Ballon D'Or, remarkable for such an unfashionable player getting into the top 10 of such an attacker-focused award.


FABIO CANNAVARO, WORLD CUP 2006
The Berlin Wall drove Italy to the title with an impeccable series of flawless performances throughout the tournament. The highlight was a man-mountain display in the famous semi-final to overcome hosts Germany. But Cannavaro's overall tournament portfolio is arguably unmatched in its defensive prowess. Joins Sammer as one of only three defenders to win the Ballon D'Or.

ROBERTO CARLOS, WORLD CUP 2002
Twice in the team of the tournament, it is the 2002 version which is on show here. That Roberto Carlos played in a 3-5-2, liberated to own the flank in the same way he did every week alongside Zidane for Real Madrid. Called El Hombre Bala - the bullet man - in Spain for his searing pace, tree-trunk thighs and cannonball shot.

JAVIER ZANETTI, COPA AMERICA 2004
Argentina's most capped player started off his international career scoring the best set-piece goal of the 1998 World Cup in a rollercoaster match against England. His best international tournament though was the 2004 Copa America where his endless stamina, power and poise dominated his right flank in every game, gaining high praise:


BASTIAN SCHWEINSTEIGER, WORLD CUP 2010
The man who made it a personal crusade to win the World Cup as ultimately shown by his man-of-the-match efforts in the 2014 final. Went very close in 2010 where he dictated games with aplomp, using his brilliant passing range, physicality and positional discipline to give Germany a solid platform to go forward. Special mention to his second-round performance in making mincemeat out of Maradona's wayward Argentina while marking Messi out of the game. An obvious choice for team of the tournament with 3 assists to his name.

LOTHAR MATTHAUS, WORLD CUP 1990
In what was surely the most influential central midfield performance of any World Cup, Matthaus was in dominant form in 1990 scoring 4 goals from the heart of midfield (the 3rd top scorer in the competition). The apex was the 4-1 demolition of pre-tournament dark horses Yugoslavia, as the box-to-box dynamo netted two bristling goals from outside the area. A step ahead of the game throughout as he not only won all those little battles that are the bread-and-butter fare of the proper central midfielder, but also made repeated match-winning impacts.

ZINEDINE ZIDANE, EURO 2000
In the summer of 2000, Zidane reached a tournament pinnacle that in the modern era was only clearly bettered by Maradona 14 years earlier. At the peak of his powers, he married that characteristic elegance with the decisiveness that he occasionally lacked during his domestic league career. His mastery of the ball was thrilling to watch and he delivered the knockout blows to both Spain (a 30-yard free-kick) and Portugal (the golden goal penalty) in the knockout stages.


DRAGAN DZAJIC, EURO 1968
Player of the tournament lighting up an otherwise fairly drab and defensive Euros. Dzajic was in rampant form, clocking up 3 goals and 3 assists out of 8 goals Yugoslavia scored against France, England and Italy for Euro '68. Those defences boasted some top class personnel - he ghosted in behind Bobby Moore and lobbed Gordon Banks to knock out the world champions - and Dzajic combined both productivity and the dazzling dribbling we fame him for in unlocking them. Top scorer in 1968 and again in the team of the tournament in 1976, this time giving Berti Vogts the runaround, Dzajic has a strong case for producing the best tournament performances of any left-sided attacker.

RONALDO, WORLD CUP 1998
Golden Ball winner thanks to a number of electric displays from the Brazilian at the peak of his powers. Scored 5 goals in 1998 on his way to 15 World Cup goals, he created countless chances for himself and was the very definition of a one-man attack who tore a generation of great defenders to bits.

WHY WE WILL WIN:

  • Our midfield is well set up to contain and stifle Moby's tidy ball players to exercise meaningful control. Lothar Matthaus and Zinedine Zidane at their absolute tournament peak will be too hot to handle. Schweinsteiger is a serial tournament performer who is a perfect fit to get the best out of both players. Throw in a well-timed overload run from Sammer and it should be decisive.
  • The better attack, illuminated by some sensational tournament showings from Zidane, Dzajic and Ronaldo, which should cause all sorts of problems for Moby's defence, particularly through the Ferri/Scirea axis.
  • Exceptional tournament defence marshalled by Matthias Sammer, Fabio Cannavaro and Peter Schmeichel, each of whom have a strong case to have delivered the greatest tournament performance in their respective positions.
  • Clear tactical fit with players well versed to the 3-5-2. Sammer reprises his libero role from 1996, Buchwald renews his side-centre-half spot from 1990, Carlos and Zanetti in their swashbuckling wing-back gigs from 2002 and 2004, while Matthaus is in the same 3-5-2 set-up he shone so brightly in 1990. Every player is fulfilling the same function they had at their tournament best.


Team Moby

Basic Player Roles & Tournaments
Goalkeeper - Walter Zenga - World Cup Third Place 1990, Italy
Attacking Left Back - Giacinto Facchetti - Uefa Euro 1968 Winner, Italy
Playmaking Right Back - Carlos Alberto Torres - World Cup Winner 1970, Brazil
Sweeper - Gaetano Scirea - World Cup Winner 1982, Italy
Stopper - Riccardo Ferri - World Cup SF 1990, Italy
Dynamic Defensive Midfielder - Luis Monti - World Cup Winner 1934, Italy
Creative Central Midfielder - Xavi Hernandez - Uefa Euro Winner - 2008, Spain
Flamboyant Attacking Midfielder - Luis Suárez Miramontes - Uefa Euro Winner - 1964, Spain
Adventurous/Goalscoring Left Wing Forward - Rob Rensenbrink - World Cup Runner Up 1978, Netherlands
Goalscoring Right Wing Forward - Grzegorz Lato - World Cup Third Place 1974, Poland
Center Forward - Marco van Basten - Uefa Euro 1988 Winner, Netherlands

Tactical Brief
The team is playing a quick tempo, attack minded possession brand of football. We will look to rely on several mouth watering combinations from front to back and across the pitch and play a highly creative and flamboyant free flowing style with the emphasis on constantly bringing the ball forward.

Outstanding Defensive Foundation
At the back guarding the goal is Walter Zenga, who set the record for consecutive clean sheets in 1990 which still stands. In defense we have combined no nonsense defensive astuteness with the required ability on the ball to fit in this design. Gaetano Scirea will be operating the leader of that defense, marshalling the unit and starting attacking with his creativity and vision on the ball. Partnering him would be Riccardo Ferri, a pillar in the standout Italian defense of 1990 who brings in tons of strength, combativeness and physicality to compliment Scirea perfectly, not to mention he rejoins his no.1 Zenga in goal. Out wide is the captain of the greatest national team ever, Carlos Alberto Torres, who will be adding his tremendous defensive nous and intelligence to the back four while providing an excellent outlet going forward, particularly with his passing and vision. That amount of greatness and tournament impact is matched well on the other flank by none other than Giacinto Facchetti, making it a sensational duo out wide. One of the greatest left backs of all time, Facchetti will have the license to play his natural game, providing width on the outside with his trademark attacking forays with immense pace and stamina, something that would be complimenting Rensenbrink brilliantly while being at the heart of an incredible watertight backline next to two other Italians.

Game-Changing Midfield Domination
Anchoring the midfield is Luis Monti, known for his world class two-way game, he will be shielding the back four and provide the required technical ability to instantly take the ball forward, not to mention a further Italian presence at the defensive core of the team. Next to him is Xavi in his flamboyant playmaking version of Euro 2008, pre tiki taka yet still technically flawless on the ball, the heart of every move, spraying the ball forward with massive intent and controlling the tempo of the game. The third midfielder is Luis Suarez Miramontes in his attacking incarnation that he performed for Spain in 1964. He will form a beautiful partnership with Xavi here, with both of them combining constantly to provide an array of unpredictable, swift and penetrating passing which will be a huge task to handle for any opposition.

Flying Down the Flanks
The team uses quality width in the form of Rob Rensenbrink and Grzegorz Lato, both of whom shone brightly in 1978 and 1974, respectively. Lato was the World Cup top scorer, combining blistering pace, dribbling and goalscoring into one scary package. With the service from central core as well as the back four, he will be an incredible outlet here. Four years ago Carlos Alberto made a fantastic partnership with Jairzinho down the right flank and a similar outcome can be expected here with Lato being devastating getting at the end of CAT's passes.

On the left would be Rensenbrink, who would be more creative and penetrative than the counterpart, as a change for this game we are calling upon his 1978 incarnation, which was in a post Johan Cruyff Netherlands team and required someone to step up as the leader of that attack, which was none other than Rob. He finished with 5 goals, one behind the top scorer Kempes and he came as close as hitting the post in the final to not only gifting Netherlands their maiden World Cup win but also likely ending the tournament as top scorer and the Golden Ball.

Not only are both the wingers extremely capable of breaking down defenses on their own but here the combination of Facchetti + Rensenbrink and Carlos Alberto + Lato will combine down both the flanks while going forward and can be expected to overwhelm the opposition. It's one of the most important weapons of this team!

The Focal Point
Lastly, the man to lead the line for this team is none other than Marco van Basten. If there is one iconic image from all the European Championships, it is that of van Basten hanging in the air at an atrocious angle from goal about to smash the ball past the Iron Curtain Rinat Dasaev with a bicycle kick. One of the greatest tournament performances as a #9, he would be the primary goal scorer and the focal point of the team. With the two wingers out wide, his physical frame and ability in the air will be of immense value here, but more importantly his elite technique, awareness, movement will combine beautifully with the rest of the team in terms of keeping the ball and moving it around. He is a complete center forward who can both score and create for others, which will be very important in bringing in the goalscoring ability of the two wide players.

Multi Dimensional, Beautiful, Effective and Complete Football
The team is clearly based on the foundations of technique, creativity and fluidity along with complimenting that with the required width, pace, goal threat and strong mentality throughout. The key players occupy the most important positions and would be in their element here, all of Scirea, Xavi, Suarez are natural leaders and would form a spine that would give up a fight, work hard for the entire match and provide quality at both ends while having the apt support system. Van Basten will be the star of the team and convert the possession dominance and technical and creative prowess into end product, however there are no characters who would let down their teammates, and can be expected to work well together. The likes of Ferri and Monti bring the required steel to not make this a lightweight outfit and they will be prepared for any physicality that can be thrown at them.

Building from the Back
The amount of elite quality on the ball flows absolutely throughout the team - in defense all of Scirea, CAT and Facchetti are far above the average of what a defender would be able to provide and would be setting the platform beautifully for the rest of the team. Not much needs to be said about the midfield trio. To complete the theme, all three attacking players are going to add to the technical genius. Both Lato and Rensenbrink played as proper wingers and not as modern day wing forwards who only contribute in final third. Both of them dropped to the midfield line time and again, especially Rensenbrink was a very dynamic wide midfielder and picked up the ball at various positions before driving it forward. Similarly, Lato would use his immense pace and direct dribbling to create constant inroads. And if there is a #9 to bring this all together and finish the chain, it is van Basten.

Containing the Opposition
A quick word for the defensive foundation and that the team isn't solely all about pretty football and can very easily compliment that with ruthless defending at the back - a unit of Walter Zenga, Carlos Alberto, Gaetano Scirea, Riccardo Ferri and Giacinto Facchetti shielded by Luis Monti [I'd like to refer to it as the Italian Death Trap] comprises of immense mental toughness, no nonsense discipline, years of experience of defending against the best players the game could throw and a virtually error-free backline that can be expected to hold to fort for 90 minutes without getting their shorts dirty. 4/6 of that backline won their respective tournaments while Zenga and Ferri together formed one of the meanest defenses in WC history in 1990, and are being marshalled by another fantastic defensive leader here in Scirea. They would be further encouraged by the fact that the team is playing a brand of football where they would not lose the ball often and defend through possession at the back, and in the events of either being in a 1v1 scenario or covering each other against surprise runs or opposition movement, they would be called upon to deliver without making many mistakes, if any. It's not just great defenders but also great footballers all of whom are regarded for incredible intelligence, leadership and would take responsibility against the most dangerous scenarios.

There isn't any one particular inspiration for this effort however the players are all familiar with this style and approach, have had similar players around them at their respective tournaments and can be expected to recreate that while being more than the sum of the parts. Teams like Spain 2008, Netherlands 1974, Brazil 1982 and the likes contribute to a lot of the background here, basically all those who prioritized dominating teams while being entertaining, free flowing, allowing players to express themselves and getting the reward for that. That's the biggest motive here.[/QUOTE]
 

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,469
Been waiting so long for this thread, and then two come along at once!
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
Right off the bat - my wing combinations of Faccheti - Rensenbrink and Carlos Alberto - Lato look well set to have great games here, against a narrow formation. They will not allow those wingbacks to contribute much offensively, both the fullbacks are capable of going forward meaningfully while supporting two wingers who both are a massive handful on their own. That wing-play is going to enormous here.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,530
I don't know if they'd win this match, but I love Aldo's team.

Lovely combinations all over the place - and the team is loaded with personal favourites to boot.

Out of all these choices, I probably like Ferri the best, odd as that may sound. No fannying about with CB pairings that would probably work (because the players are top class) - but a proper combo, Scirea partnered with a rock solid side kick whose role in the setup is 100% clear.
 

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,469
@Moby

any gifs of Ferri in action and Rensenbrink, just so I can get a feeiing for them in action?

@Gio

same re: Buchwald.
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,241
I don't know if they'd win this match, but I love Aldo's team.

Lovely combinations all over the place - and the team is loaded with personal favourites to boot.

Out of all these choices, I probably like Ferri the best, odd as that may sound. No fannying about with CB pairings that would probably work (because the players are top class) - but a proper combo, Scirea partnered with a rock solid side kick whose role in the setup is 100% clear.
Agreed, Ferri had a brilliant '88 Euros and was part of an exceptional backline in 1990. Think he complements Scirea very well too, like you've mentioned. Rather underrated but was a mighty fine defender who managed to keep the likes of Vierchowod and Ferrara out of the Italian side.

Regarding favourites, particularly like the use of Suarez and the FB pairing is top-notch with only Nilton Santos being someone whom I'd take over Facchetti in that role.
 

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
I don't know if they'd win this match, but I love Aldo's team.

Lovely combinations all over the place - and the team is loaded with personal favourites to boot.

Out of all these choices, I probably like Ferri the best, odd as that may sound. No fannying about with CB pairings that would probably work (because the players are top class) - but a proper combo, Scirea partnered with a rock solid side kick whose role in the setup is 100% clear.
I agree. His side looks spot on and van Basten together with Rensenbrink and Lato would be such a fluid attack with moments of brilliance coming from all three of them. They can play extremely direct counter attacking football with Carlos Alberto, Scirea, Xavi and Suarez fantastic passing and vision. But they look almost as good when they'd face an organized defense and Xavi would play a star role here at dictating the tempo and that could prove to be the winning formula if they get a lead.

On the other side Gio and Theon has an incredible spine and as long as they don't concede first they'd be electric. Not much to comment, it is a perfect side more or less.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Well this is tough. Splitting hairs really.

Love Aldo's team, Ferri should've started in the previous game as he had a better tournaments(both 88 and 90) than Stam. Xavi/Suarez works pretty well as a shade of Iniesta/Xavi.

Lato/Rensenbrink in all time sense wouldn't probably started(not that they aren't personal favorites and one of the best wingers historically) with many other shiny goalscoring names out wide but in terms of theme make perfect sense.

On the other side a 5-3-2 doesn't necessarily mean that won't have width. Especially with mobile forwards like Ronaldo and Dzajic up top.

To me it's a one goal difference in this one and a bit personal preference going for one way or another in terms of vote.
 

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
Well this is tough. Splitting hairs really.

Love Aldo's team, Ferri should've started in the previous game as he had a better tournaments(both 88 and 90) than Stam. Xavi/Suarez works pretty well as a shade of Iniesta/Xavi.

Lato/Rensenbrink in all time sense wouldn't probably started(not that they aren't personal favorites and one of the best wingers historically) with many other shiny goalscoring names out wide but in terms of theme make perfect sense.

On the other side a 5-3-2 doesn't necessarily mean that won't have width. Especially with mobile forwards like Ronaldo and Dzajic up top.

To me it's a one goal difference in this one and a bit personal preference going for one way or another in terms of vote.
Yup.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
@Moby

any gifs of Ferri in action and Rensenbrink, just so I can get a feeiing for them in action?
Will dig some stuff. To start with, here's the moment I talked about in the OP. 30 seconds were left on the clock with the score 1-1, Krol picked him out beautifully, it was basically the last chance and he had to give it to the main man, and he latched onto the pass reacting quickly and beating the defender to the ball - only to hit the post. That was the game, and the World Cup for Netherlands and that would have pretty much handed Rensenbrink the recognition Kempes ended up getting - who of course also had a fantastic tournament. Fine margins, really. I know hitting the post is still off target but that's as close as it gets.


Will get around posting footage on that Italian backline that Ferri started every game in which conceded a solitary goal in the semi final in the entire tournament, 1 goal in 6 matches. It's true he had a fantastic Baresi playing as a libero in that tournament which isn't far off from having Scirea in his 1982 World Cup winning form. Here's what the opposition manager has to say about him:

Inter's late 1980s team is retrospectively under-rated. Even the lesser lights like Berti and Ferri were outstanding players.
One of the finest and highest-performing defenders in Serie A during the 1980s. Ferri was an Inter and Italy stalwart who kept the likes of Vierchowod and Ferrara out of the national team. Formed a key component of perhaps the greatest international defence of all time - Italy's bulletproof World Cup 1990 back-line - which didn't concede a single goal throughout the tournament until deep into the semi-final. Quick and strong.
On the 1990 World Cup, I rate that Italy defence as perhaps the greatest of all time. Baresi was at his peak and completely dominated the tournament. He was supported by other world-class defenders like Maldini, Bergomi and Ferri, with other world-class defenders like Vierchowod and Ferrara largely stuck on the bench. No wonder they did not concede a single goal all tournament until deep into the semi-final against Argentina (and even that was a feck-up by the keeper rather than the back line). Importantly though all those defenders continued to excel as the game slowly opened up in the 1990s with the changes to the passback rule and the shift to three points for a win.
 

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,469
Don't worry about Rensenbrink, dug out some footage myself and remembered I'd watched him before.. the 'human snake'.

Ferri, will admit - never seen him play, so if you can get footage - would be much appreciated.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,336
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Right off the bat - my wing combinations of Faccheti - Rensenbrink and Carlos Alberto - Lato look well set to have great games here, against a narrow formation. They will not allow those wingbacks to contribute much offensively, both the fullbacks are capable of going forward meaningfully while supporting two wingers who both are a massive handful on their own. That wing-play is going to enormous here.
There's nothing narrow about a 3-5-2 with Roberto Carlos and Javier Zanetti as wing-backs, especially with an attacking duo comprising a winger-cum-inside-left in Dragan Dzajic and a one-man frontline in Ronaldo. IMO it would be naive to place such an emphasis on your wing-play when we've got such a side well placed to exploit the spaces left in behind.
 

SirMattBugsby

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2016
Messages
1,537
Location
In the house!
@Gio @Theon Would like to know your tactics here on and off the ball. It seems like a deep-block, counter-attacking system but will the build-up be similar to, say, Italy vs Spain in Euro 2016 or more direct?

Also @Moby will your wingers be operating more in wide areas or as auxillary goal-scorers?
 
Last edited:

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,469
There's nothing narrow about a 3-5-2 with Roberto Carlos and Javier Zanetti as wing-backs, especially with an attacking duo comprising a winger-cum-inside-left in Dragan Dzajic and a one-man frontline in Ronaldo. IMO it would be naive to place such an emphasis on your wing-play when we've got such a side well placed to exploit the spaces left in behind.
Gotta agree with that assessment, one thing I wouldn't be able to say about your side is that it lacks width. That Carlos, Dzajic combo looks frighteningly good.

Nevertheless, I'd say balance wise Lato/Alberto edges it, but yours has more flair and oomph.

Would be an interesting battle down that flank.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,336
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
@Gio @Theon Would like to know your tactics here on and off the ball. It seems like a deep-block, counter-attacking system but will the build-up be similar to, say, Italy vs Spain in Euro 2016 or more direct?

Also @Moby will your wingers be operating more in wide areas or as auxillary goal-scorers?
I think our midfield is too strong for a bus-parking job. Matthaus and Zidane should really be running the show. Inevitably Xavi and Suarez will want to get on the ball, so to a point we will let them do that - by being compact and defending tightly. There is some pace on Moby's flanks, so we will acknowledge that with a balanced line, with the added insurance of Sammer's sweeping. That should allow the midfield to be compact allowing us to strike hard on transitions. The likes of Matthaus, Zidane, Ronaldo and Dzajic, as well as the two wing-backs would all thrive on turnover of possession. We want to get the ball to Dzajic, Zidane and Ronaldo early to allow them to isolate defenders 1v1.

Crucially for the outcome of this tie, I don't see too much defensive resistance to stop Matthaus when he gets going. Xavi and Suarez were never passengers off the ball, but I can't see either stopping Matthaus in 1990 form.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,170
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
My first thought is that this is a battle between an elegant midfield (Moby) and a midfield with a bunch of nutters (Zidane, Sammer and Lothar).

Ultimately this looks like a battle of two very different approaches . Moby probably has the strongest flanks in the tournament. Facchetti-Rensenbrink and Alberto-Lato for tournament peaks is about as strong as it gets. Particularly I see that Alberto-Lato causing some serious trouble for Roberto Carlos who is going to definitely be overwhelmed defensively and require a lot of help and I am not sure Schweiny and Buchwald are the best for that role. I can definitely see that flank giving Moby a lot of joy.

On the other hand that midfield of Gio/Theon is not cuddly. I have a hard time seeing Moby's Spanish duo able to maintain any sort of consistent control. I can see Xavi getting a lot more frustrated than against any opponents Spain faced.

The Zidane-Monti match up is also interesting in that they both completely lost their shite in World Cup finals. Zidane goes on tilt and gets ejected famously while Monti spent the match helping up Uruguayans every time they fell down due to being afraid of threats. Of course, neither manager selected that tournament incarnation so those incidents are irrelevant to this game I just find the pairing interesting historically.
 

SirMattBugsby

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2016
Messages
1,537
Location
In the house!
I think our midfield is too strong for a bus-parking job. Matthaus and Zidane should really be running the show. Inevitably Xavi and Suarez will want to get on the ball, so to a point we will let them do that - by being compact and defending tightly. There is some pace on Moby's flanks, so we will acknowledge that with a balanced line, with the added insurance of Sammer's sweeping. That should allow the midfield to be compact allowing us to strike hard on transitions. The likes of Matthaus, Zidane, Ronaldo and Dzajic, as well as the two wing-backs would all thrive on turnover of possession. We want to get the ball to Dzajic, Zidane and Ronaldo early to allow them to isolate defenders 1v1.

Crucially for the outcome of this tie, I don't see too much defensive resistance to stop Matthaus when he gets going. Xavi and Suarez were never passengers off the ball, but I can't see either stopping Matthaus in 1990 form.
Thanks for the explanation. I agree, especially with the transitions part. They will be key to your team.

The Zidane-Monti match up is also interesting in that they both completely lost their shite in World Cup finals. Zidane goes on tilt and gets ejected famously while Monti spent the match helping up Uruguayans every time they fell down due to being afraid of threats. Of course, neither manager selected that tournament incarnation so those incidents are irrelevant to this game I just find the pairing interesting historically.
The Zidane-Monti duel is key to this match imo. 3v3 situations in Moby's defence are likely. How Monti deals with Zidane will be key to killing attacks.
 

SirMattBugsby

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2016
Messages
1,537
Location
In the house!
Would love some details on Luis Monti if anybody sits on some.
Read about him. He played as an attacking centre-half in Italy's 2-3-2-3 system, which is similar to his role here. Was known as "Doble Ancho" or double wide for his coverage of the pitch.

This link was particularly helpful:

https://longballfootball.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/historical-football-11-double-wide/

His importance is actually swaying my opinion. Moby's team looks much less vulnerable to counters now. He can man-mark Zizou if needed (did so with Sindelar) and has technical ability as well..

EDIT: @Chesterlestreet beat me to it.. same link.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,432
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
Lato/Rensenbrink in all time sense wouldn't probably started(not that they aren't personal favorites and one of the best wingers historically) with many other shiny goalscoring names out wide but in terms of theme make perfect sense.
Considering positionally, both Rensenbrink and Lato should feature in a Top 10 all time list for their positions imo.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Considering positionally, both Rensenbrink and Lato should feature in a Top 10 all time list for their positions imo.
Yeah I agree with you but usually they are considered more of a hipster choice in the later stages of all time drafts.
 

Moby

Dick
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
51,356
Location
Barcelona, Catalunya
@Gio what's your plan on dealing with the wingers having support with their fullbacks i.e. Lato supported by Carlos Alberto and Rensenbrink supported by Giacinto Facchetti, given both are absolutely on fire with their shooting boots (7 and 5 goals respectively in their world cups) while also having to contain van Basten in the middle?
 

SirMattBugsby

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2016
Messages
1,537
Location
In the house!
@Gio what's your plan on dealing with the wingers having support with their fullbacks i.e. Lato supported by Carlos Alberto and Rensenbrink supported by Giacinto Facchetti, given both are absolutely on fire with their shooting boots (7 and 5 goals respectively in their world cups) while also having to contain van Basten in the middle?
The way I see it, his CBs will drop deep to congest space in and around the box. Schweini and Lothar will retreat as well to create a defensive bloc of five while your full backs will be marked by his wing backs.

This of course leaves your attacking mids with a certain degree of freedom to pass, and Xavi-Suarez are good enough to find teammates in the tightest of spaces. I essentially view this match as a 5v5 in your central attacking areas against a 3v3 in your defensive areas. Which is why I find Monti so crucial..
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,336
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
His importance is actually swaying my opinion. Moby's team looks much less vulnerable to counters now. He can man-mark Zizou if needed (did so with Sindelar) and has technical ability as well..
It's hard to judge Monti. From one side of the fence, his World Cup credentials are excellent and he's a shoe-in for a draft like this. On the other, the game was very different in the 1930s and he maybe got away with a lot more thuggery than would be the case in the modern game. In fact, his man-marking of Sindelar was really a hatchet job permitted by a referee with a gun to his head from Mussolini.

The problem with the stories of that era is that they sound so very, very different depending on from what side you hear them. That Austrian team around Sindelar had so many obstacles. Many of their key players still had to play domestic games during the World Cup tournament, traveling between Italy and Austria or simply missing World Cup games. More than half of the regular starting XI was missing for various reasons including some brutal injuries because the players were kicked in a proper mental way during the qualifiers. The complete coaching team (including the head coach Jimmy Hogan) stayed at home because they couldn't afford to make the trip, so the players were on their own.

Then the semifinal happened. The referee was a guest of Mussolini the night before and reading about the goals for Italy, you simply have to say that he wasn't going to let Austria win, no matter what. According to reports, the ref cleared a great goalscoring chance for Austria by himself, deliberately heading the ball out of the box. I'm pretty sure that it has been proven since that Mussolini paid the referee (who despite the criticism for his performance in the semifinal refereed the final as well and let the Italian midfield kick the shit out of Czechoslovakian team without ever interfering). Greece withdraw from the return leg in the qualifier against Italy after Mussolini paid them a shitload of money.

It's by far the most tainted World Cup ever, way worse than the one in Argentina in '78. And in all that Monti wasn't even the dominating figure for Italy like for example Matthäus was for Germany. Meazza was clearly the star in the team, deciding the game in attack while Monti was part of a brutal midfield kicking quality foreign playmakers until they were injured without any protection from the referee. Sindelar finished that famous marking job injured. But without substitutions allowed, he of course stayed on the pitch till the end. But he wasn't able to play the game for 3rd place or would have been able to play in the final.

Obviously it's difficult to compare between eras, almost impossible and we have to give some leeway in regards to the rules of each era and all that. But I think in the case of Monti's impact on Italy's World Cup win compared to modern examples like Matthäus for Germany or compared to Rijkaard's performances for Milan, Ajax and for the Dutch nationalteam in their Euro win in '88 in a highly competitive time without that kind of influence from outside parties, I think it's pretty mental to suggest that Monti should be rated anywhere near them. I rarely agree with @Theon ( ;) ) but I'm with him here and think you're way off the mark if you think that Monti's performances in the 30's are in any way comparable to the probably two greatest midfielders of all time.
 

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,469
Then again Zizou nearly put a human bullet through the chest of the last italian who tried to do a hatchet job on him.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,971
Maybe it's just me but Resenbrink, MVB and Lato seems off. The two wide men in the years chosen were really wide forwards and MVB isn't someone I'd immediately think of to play down the middle with both of them. That said I was surprised Der Bomber played well as a false 9.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,178
Location
Montevideo
It's hard to judge Monti. From one side of the fence, his World Cup credentials are excellent and he's a shoe-in for a draft like this. On the other, the game was very different in the 1930s and he maybe got away with a lot more thuggery than would be the case in the modern game. In fact, his man-marking of Sindelar was really a hatchet job permitted by a referee with a gun to his head from Mussolini.
I am with @Balu there in not really rating that Italian side/win much at all.

I do rate Monti as a Top 10 DM or thereabouts but can't see that midfield trio stopping Zidane and the jaggernaut German trio that supports him.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
It's a lot of shady affairs when it comes to those early WC, filled with a lot of controversy. Judging by his level at the time Monti should be there with the best, the performances are of course a bit tarnished with the off the field antics. A bit like Real under Franco.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,530
Yes, the '34 tournament is fishy, there is little doubt about that. It's not a modern take on it either, plenty of foreign journos reacted both to the brutal tactics and the dodgy refereeing at the time.

It's always tricky to judge these things, though. There's no reason to question the quality of that Italian side as such, similar to Argentina '78, but you can't completely ignore the fishy details either.

As for Monti, he deserves his reputation, for my money - but the idea that he did a great marking job on Sindelar is highly dubious. He kicked the shit out of him in a manner he obviously wouldn't have gotten away with in later eras - which is one thing - but that was also taken notice of at the time (which is really damning).
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
My first thought after seeing Gio's set up was about their mentality. We tend to ignore mental side of the game, or, at least, underestimate it. But a side with Schmeichel, Sammer, Cannavaro, Schweiny, Matthäus, Zanetti, Zidane... That determination and a sheer power of will :eek:
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,807
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I hated voting against Aldo as the likes of Rensenbrink and Lato are genuine greats who are both final-worthy in this draft, but its just too tough to assess Monti given the circumstances around that WC and subsequently Zidane has to be given the decided edge in that tussle. Gio's team looks brilliant, with Sammer and Cannavaro both contending for best defender in the pool, and Matthaus and Schmeichel both at the top of the heap in their positions. Zidane as a 4th pick has to be the steal of the draft.