I don't think blame is the correct word, but Jose does bear some responsibility (in fact most of it) to create a formation and tactical set up that gets us enough goals to win games. Ibra has done his fair share but Rooney, Mkhi, Martial, and Rashford need to contribute a hell of a lot more to balance things out.
Goal scoring is a serious problem.
- Thread starter Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber
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This makes sense actually. The one thing I would criticize is actually the way we play in games where we put ourselves up front. Against West Brom from the 5th minute on, Palace after Pogba's goal, Sunderland, West Ham or worse, Everton, we just play with significantly less tempo which is very frustrating when you consider how quickly we can change that the second we need a goal. We seem very happy to just get the job done. I really do think this contributed to us not getting used to that goal scoring mindset. We are simply not a team that is used to scoring goals or has that habit which comes back to bite us from time to time when we actually do need those goals. It doesn't get noticed when we do win but when you are team that barely ever scores more than twice, it's hard to just turn it on whenever you like. This is strange however as we look really sharp going forward whenever we do need goals. Maybe it's just a case of old habits die hard with Mourinho and his tendency to protect leads or maybe it is like you say, the team is just lacking confidence from the past few years that it tends to get too insecure about losing leads.
I think Mikhi is the only one who is missing good opportunities.
Apart from that I don't think we create as much as people think.
Apart from that I don't think we create as much as people think.
He has always been doing that tbh
I think it depends which game you're meaning.
Stoke, West Ham and Burnley at home were outrageous to not win. We pummelled them
Arsenal and Liverpool, on the whole we should have won.
Didn't see today's game, but I heard 25 chances somewhere, to their tiny handful. But i'm open to which of the two categories above it actually should come under.
As games go on, I find more and more substance in this line of thinking to be honest. As much as many on here don't want to admit it, from watching the guys around him I genuinely think some of our forward players have trouble reading him, interplaying with him because of his lack of dynamism. Sometimes a play will develop and the forward players will literally run off and have no forward player in a central position to connect with or bail them out, even with a low percentage pass.
Food for thought for sure, as a defender you would read the scouting report and know that if you keep this guy in front of you with his back to goal you'll have done most of your job for the 90 minutes, he'll rarely threaten to break the line.
Possibly, down this line of thinking you could make a case that we're playing maybe.. Too much to his strength and his game? Maybe? But he has scored a lot of goals this season so where does that conclusion go? Not far really I suppose, it is a pickle for sure.
Inevitable problem when you play with single immobile striker. 3-5-2 or any other system to accommodate ibra+ another mobile striker is the solution
I don't think the balance in the team is right. Carrick's reintroduction into the team coincided with Mkhitaryan's fantastic run of form. Since that has tailed off, there just aren't enough goal scorers in this team.
This is the sort of situation where Fergie would sacrifice creativity and put someone like Solskjaer or Chicharito in the team. Sometimes the key to scoring more goals is picking players who are good at scoring goals.
Long term, I think Jose will need to either sacrifice the security of the midfield 3 or replace his attacking wide players with players who create less but score more.
This is why I was baffled by the Griezmann thread. The insinuation was that his very presence would unbalance the attacking juggernaut United has built. He scores goals. Sounds perfect to me.
This is the sort of situation where Fergie would sacrifice creativity and put someone like Solskjaer or Chicharito in the team. Sometimes the key to scoring more goals is picking players who are good at scoring goals.
Long term, I think Jose will need to either sacrifice the security of the midfield 3 or replace his attacking wide players with players who create less but score more.
This is why I was baffled by the Griezmann thread. The insinuation was that his very presence would unbalance the attacking juggernaut United has built. He scores goals. Sounds perfect to me.
The immobile-Zlatan argument would have merit if we didn't just go and create ample opportunities to win the match with Zlatan at the centre, as we have done in countless drawn home games this season. Also Zlatan is the league leading forward in terms of chances created for teammates. Chances are if you don't think Zlatan is good at linking with teammates, then no centre forward is ever going to be good enough. That's his biggest strength after all. It ain't his finishing for sure.
Our finishing as a team is evidently the biggest deficit in our game, whether that has just been down to cruel variance or poor performance is beyond me. Football is a bitch of a sport though and a game of high variation due to relative difficulty in scoring and how goals can come from sheer fortune. Accordingly there are plenty of unjust results and upsets, which we've been on the wrong side of on the whole this season.
Why people are so keen to look at the strongest cog in our system and knock it is beyond me. If Zlatan got injured first game of the season, we'd probably be fighting just to stay in the top half of the table. I don't see where the goals and functionality as an offensive unit would otherwise come from. You can only fluke your way to steady wins without creating chances, ala Van Gaal, for so long.
Still think Zlatan, Pogba and Mkhi look top notch, but their other offensive teammates aren't operating at their level.
Our finishing as a team is evidently the biggest deficit in our game, whether that has just been down to cruel variance or poor performance is beyond me. Football is a bitch of a sport though and a game of high variation due to relative difficulty in scoring and how goals can come from sheer fortune. Accordingly there are plenty of unjust results and upsets, which we've been on the wrong side of on the whole this season.
Why people are so keen to look at the strongest cog in our system and knock it is beyond me. If Zlatan got injured first game of the season, we'd probably be fighting just to stay in the top half of the table. I don't see where the goals and functionality as an offensive unit would otherwise come from. You can only fluke your way to steady wins without creating chances, ala Van Gaal, for so long.
Still think Zlatan, Pogba and Mkhi look top notch, but their other offensive teammates aren't operating at their level.
Stokex2, West Ham and Burnley at home.
104 shots (on target and off)
3 goals.
4 points.
rofl.
104 shots (on target and off)
3 goals.
4 points.
rofl.
352 is never the solution. The single immobile striker is pretty much the only one from our attacking players who, apart from one goals drought, constantly delivers goals. It's the other players' conversion ability that's letting us down, in the last 2 games I can recall atleast 4-5 clear cut chances that simply have to be converted by them, all Mkhitaryan, Mata, Pogba, Rashford failed to do so, hence we drop points. Same shit hit us before with those draws against Stoke et al. couple of months ago.
We don't seem to score any effortless goals anymore
Coaching has nothing to do with Mata spooning over an open goal from 5 yards.
Should probably blame the coaching for Ibra being top scorer too. Ludicrous comment. Herrera was never good at shooting. It's nothing to do with coaching. It's players underperforming, missing good chances and making wrong decisions at times - like when Ibra tried to pass ball to Mata at one point when a shot the far better option - Mata was covered.
Solution would be in getting the proper pacy right winger,we can clearly see the lack of pace when we start with mata and Ibra as front men,Though Miki starts at right wing as game progress he moves behind striker.Valencia is the only source for anything from right wing,if at all we had proper right winger then most of the counter attacking play would have ended with goal.Zaltan is flawless we need pacy players on his both side,he got great vision around him and can link up with wide men's.
Perhaps we should hire a finishing or special skills coach to improve the players' composure and decision making in front of goal through repetition. Van Persie often spoke at length about Meulensteen's influence in that department - in terms of going over likely scenarios in training so the players get conditioned into making better and predetermined choices in certain situations via practice (thereby reducing the margin for error in a state of panic).
With a bit more polish, 'nerves of steel' and efficiency in front of goal - the story of the season could've been very different - especially through that run of draws where we squandered several easy points even though we dominated the play, or vs. Stoke today - where we had the perfect chance to really boost our Top 2-4 chances - narrowing the gap to Tottenham, Liverpool and City to 3, 2 and 0 respectively.
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10874179
Link
With a bit more polish, 'nerves of steel' and efficiency in front of goal - the story of the season could've been very different - especially through that run of draws where we squandered several easy points even though we dominated the play, or vs. Stoke today - where we had the perfect chance to really boost our Top 2-4 chances - narrowing the gap to Tottenham, Liverpool and City to 3, 2 and 0 respectively.
We were better then. We're improving all the time under José though.
Off the ball movement is still a big problem. No fluidity in attack. We often see Valencia on his own on right side. Nobody to overlap with, 3-4 opposition players in front of him, which leaves him with 2 simple options - either to pass the ball back or cross it into the box. Our left wing is not in better condition. We play through center or cross into the box and become predictable. No runs into the box, no stretching of opposition's defence. We often throw sinks, but we do it in amateur way and miss easy targets. Sinks are not a problem, the way we throw them is. Mou will get it right eventually, but it will take time.
David de Gea costed us 3 point. Any EPL keeper would done better. I starting to suspect he is the sort of keeper who needs opposition to frequently bombard his post to turn god-like.
Zlatan poor decisions in front of goal. Mata pitiful. Can't understand substitution of Mikhi for Lingard.
Zlatan poor decisions in front of goal. Mata pitiful. Can't understand substitution of Mikhi for Lingard.
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I think also creating chances and our play in the final third is usually a problem. We are still too static and yesterday, Valencia was always alone on that right hand side. We tend to attack only over the wings, either via Valencia alone on the right or interplay on the left, and that's about it.
Our top 10 most frequent shooters.
Ibrahimovic: 90 shots, 14 goals
Pogba: 72 shots, 4 goals
Mata: 29 shots, 4 goals
Rooney: 28 shots, 2 goals
Herrera: 28 shots, 0 goals
Rashford: 20 shots, 3 goals
Martial: 19 shots, 2 goals
Mkhitayran: 19 shots, 2 goals
Lingard: 19 shots, 0 goals
Fellaini: 13 shots, 0 goals
It's looking like nobody except Ibrahimovic will get into double figures in the league this season. 4 goals from 72 shots is dire from Pogba and for Herrera, Fellaini and Lingard not to have a single goal between them is also extremely poor.
Ibrahimovic: 90 shots, 14 goals
Pogba: 72 shots, 4 goals
Mata: 29 shots, 4 goals
Rooney: 28 shots, 2 goals
Herrera: 28 shots, 0 goals
Rashford: 20 shots, 3 goals
Martial: 19 shots, 2 goals
Mkhitayran: 19 shots, 2 goals
Lingard: 19 shots, 0 goals
Fellaini: 13 shots, 0 goals
It's looking like nobody except Ibrahimovic will get into double figures in the league this season. 4 goals from 72 shots is dire from Pogba and for Herrera, Fellaini and Lingard not to have a single goal between them is also extremely poor.
This is RvN/Saha all over again(possibly).
The sample size is now far too large for us to keep saying "one of those days". Whoever we buy in the summer, even a CDM, needs to have a decent amount of goals (relative to that position) in them.
The sample size is now far too large for us to keep saying "one of those days". Whoever we buy in the summer, even a CDM, needs to have a decent amount of goals (relative to that position) in them.
Mikhi had started to look exhausted in the second half. Taking him off was the right decision.
To me it's not just how many it's when we score is the problem. Not sure what the figures are but we rarely score in the first 25 mins which just gives the other teams more confidence. The Utd teams of old appeared to come out and hit the teams hard in the first half, a bit like Liverpool were doing at the first part of the season.
The amount goals scored in relation to the amount of chances created and missed this season in a lot of games, is a cause for concern, no doubt. Had only a few of the frustrating draws in the PL this season been turned into wins, United would be right up there in the table.
Pogba is sabotaging our season too much. Somebody needs to tell him to cut it and pass the ball to players who are better at scoring.
Haven't read through this thread but we'd probably have around 10 points more if we were good enough in front of goal. Not sure if it's something you work on in training or if it's become more of a mental issue.
We are creating more than enough i most matches but aren't good enough at finishing them.
We are creating more than enough i most matches but aren't good enough at finishing them.
- Generally, conversion rates for individual players, no matter which method is used to calculate, are oscillating from season to season.
- Generally, the sample size is simply too small to draw firm conclusions for players at this point of the season.
- Generally, the quality of shots are not equal. That's not just obvious for pen versus non-pen shots.
- Specifically on Pogba, if he wasn't so eager to fire from long distance, he'd have a much better conversion rate.
Horrendous.
Mata misses from 2 yards out, Mikhitaryan skies a shot from around the penalty spot, lingard hits the bar but our issue is Zlatan our leading top scorer...
Sergio Ramos has the same amount of league goals as Rooney, Mata and Martial combined... Put that into perspective.
Rooney, Mata and Martial combined minutes - 2240
Sergio Ramos - 972
I know it's a different league but the same stats also go for these players - Fer (6), Snodgrass (7), Walcott (8).
there is actually 7 defenders in the Prem that have more goals than either of them 3.
Rooney, Mata and Martial combined minutes - 2240
Sergio Ramos - 972
I know it's a different league but the same stats also go for these players - Fer (6), Snodgrass (7), Walcott (8).
there is actually 7 defenders in the Prem that have more goals than either of them 3.
Ramos has six league goals and Mata, Rooney and Martial combined have eight. Incorrect stat, but yes, it's pretty clear how much some of our forwards are underdelivering.
I always think how the warm up at Old Trafford is revealing. I know their is an important distinction tknbe made between warming up and training sessions and that they have different purposes, but our mentality in thoses sessions is poor. They should be looking to convert 100% of those 1-on-1s with the keepe but they constantly go wide, over and straight at the keeper. Need to get that clinical mentality in our minds.
Yep there's our problem right there. An appalling contribution from all of them except Zlatan. And I'd go as far to say we should expect our defenders to score one or two more from set pieces, but we suck at them too.
1) Are we perhaps rotating the wingers too much and hence they are struggling to get rhythm and form? Martial scored loads last season and even Mata got more then. Maybe we are too overstocked on the wings and so he feels forced to give them games instead of just playing Martial and Mhki game in game out until they are in peak form.
2) Similarly with Rashford, if he had a run of games in his best position as a #9 whenever Zlatan loses his sharpness (like earlier in the season) then I am sure he would get on a hot run like last season too.
3) Finally, last season our players were under orders to not shoot from distance, but now this season we have Pogba and and Herrera doing so even when they have three players blocking them or are 30 yards out, when its become abundantly obvious that neither of them are any good at it except for the one in 50 for the highlights reel that actually goes in. A lot of our attacks end in this when perhaps they could be more creatively passed and try to open up a better opportunity. Or we get a midfielder who is good at long distance shooting.
2) Similarly with Rashford, if he had a run of games in his best position as a #9 whenever Zlatan loses his sharpness (like earlier in the season) then I am sure he would get on a hot run like last season too.
3) Finally, last season our players were under orders to not shoot from distance, but now this season we have Pogba and and Herrera doing so even when they have three players blocking them or are 30 yards out, when its become abundantly obvious that neither of them are any good at it except for the one in 50 for the highlights reel that actually goes in. A lot of our attacks end in this when perhaps they could be more creatively passed and try to open up a better opportunity. Or we get a midfielder who is good at long distance shooting.
Similar to why the heck do Madrid have Cr7 taking freekicks when he is an embarrassment at them.
You have to play the %'s. That sounds awfully like LVG but still....
Zlatan is the one who misses the most chances from the entire PL. He has missed like 12 big chances already this season.
Pogba is the second one in the United squad with most missed big opportunities.
That makes sense because they are also the two with the most playing time and alot of the attack goes through them.
Pogba: 72 shots, 4 goals
Rashford: 20 shots, 3 goals
Martial: 19 shots, 2 goals
Mkhitayran: 19 shots, 2 goals
If a bunch of those shots of Pogba were instead channelled into opening up a shooting chance for Rashford, Martial and Mhkitaryan then that would be playing the percentages better.
Regarding free kicks (and corners) this seniority issue of who takes them needs to be replaced by them competing for the role in training that week.
For me it's all down to Mourinho, his unwillingness to replace Ibrahimovic occasionally and to constantly meddle with the two wing postitions.
I'm not sure converting our best finisher last season into a full time wide player was the smartest decision either. I think he's really knocked the confidence out of Rashford and put a lot of unfair pressure on him.
I'm not sure converting our best finisher last season into a full time wide player was the smartest decision either. I think he's really knocked the confidence out of Rashford and put a lot of unfair pressure on him.
Sorry, meant Mkhi, Rooney & Martial. Obviously got Mata stuck in my head after yesterday
At the moment I don't think I can really blame Rooney for where he is, he doesn't get the game time he used to plus he is now 31 and not playing as striker. I think his mentality has changed to getting assists rather than goal scoring. Although the Stoke game did show he wanted a goal from the free kick, but we can forget that
Mkhitaryan, yes he is new to the team but that doesn't excuse you from missing sitters and 'good' goal scoring opportunities. Martial, obviously young, but again should be scoring a lot more considering we all know he can take it past any player on his day to create good goal scoring chances.
Seems to me they know this is what they are lacking but they just can't handle the pressure when the ball is delivered to them.
Maybe they still hear LVG in the ear at scoring opportunities saying "pass back" or something similar
