Totally agree with this. Most people wouldn't even know Guardiola's name had he not become a coach. He was a very average player. Zidane's legacy also grew massively after his retirement for some reason.
It should be noted that Clough didn't play most of his career in the second tier because he couldn't cut it in the top tier. He was a prime reason why his team got promoted, then suffered a career ending injury almost immediately after starting in the first division. One of the great what-ifs.
Zidane had a great ability to elevate his game on another level in big tournaments, but I don't think that he had ever consistently reached Cruyff's level of performance from mid-60's to mid 70's. It's such a shame that Cruyff had missed the 1978 tournament, although having your family threatened is certainly a thing that would make anyone reconsider his priorities. It's hard to imagine Netherlands not winning that one with Cruyff on board, which would've likely cemented his place alongside Pelé/Maradona, instead of one step below.
That's because he was a DM in an era where we weren't all glued to our smartphones. He was a good player, not exceptional like Zidane, but certainly not 'average'. A lesser Biscuits without the theatrics.
Zidane built up a legacy while he was playing. He was after all a 3x FIFA World Player of the Year.
Pep just had a huge impact on football. It seems like he's an icon for most of the younger progressive coaches. Tuchel and Nagelsmann seem to worship him, Flick called him the bitw recently, ten Hag followed him to Bayern, from what I remember even Klopp used Barcelona match films to illustrate pressing ideas in his earlier days as a coach and Löw seemed to develop his side in a more dominant direction around the time Guardiola arrived as well. He's had a lasting effect on Spanish and German football at the very least. Zidane doesn't seem to have nearly the same status.
Whilst I agree with you about Guardiola, I very much don't agree with this comment. Djimi Traoré won a CL. Dannys Simpson and Drinkwater have a league title. Many other pretty average players (by top level standards) have quite decent trophy cabinets. Jonathan Greening got a CL medal and I think a league winner medal in 99, David May won plenty with us. There's all kinds of bang average players at Arsenal that have won FA cups. Vladimir Smicer has a lovely trophy cabinet I'm sure.
Aye, fair points. He wouldn't be top 5 for sure, but he was the only 'great' manager who was a good player I could think of outside of those already mentioned. According to wiki, he has the 2nd highest ever gpg ratio of players in the British leagues that've scored 200+ goals. Funny reading about him b*ll*cking defenders in teams he played for too!
Didn't stop Rijkaard or Matthäus from becoming all time greats during roughly the same era.
Even though he was definitely more consistently influential in the 2006 World Cup rather than the 1998 World Cup, I wouldn't say that he literally dragged France past Spain for example — Ribéry and Vieira were both exceptional in that match as well. Furthermore, for the tournament as a whole, the likes of Thuram and Makelélé (who returned from retirement at almost the same time to collectively propel France) were instrumental too.
Gullit: Cruyff put Dutch football on the map.
How Cruyff reinvented football at Barca.
I get what you're saying but then none of the players you mentioned come anywhere his club trophy haul. None of them won as much international recognition either (Smicer aside). None of them played as many games in total for the clubs in question. With someone like David May and the CL he was just a minor part of the squad whereas Guardiola was a regular starter.
Guardiola was a very good player, his role and level was similar to Carrick, in my opinion.
That is ridiculous.
Good player too
No arguments about that. I'm just saying it's silly if you're suggesting there's no in-between 'all time great' and 'average'.
Bizarre to mention Hoddle above a whole host of others. In fact, in British football it has to be Dalglish ahead of him.
Smicer has 383 career appearances including 184 at Liverpool. CL, UEFA Cup, Super Cup, 2 French League Cups, French League title, 3 Czech league titles, probably some other stuff too, I can't be arsed looking it up. He has an excellent trophy haul. He was also pretty fecking average.
Yep, Carrick is an appropriate comparison. Definitely much more than an average player, and a cerebral leader/organizer to boot. The likes of Laudrup, Stoichkov and Romário naturally got the bulk of the plaudits as attackers, but Guardiola was a vital figure in Barcelona's so-called Dream Team and had a knack for maintaining a consistently high tempo with intricate and fairly adventurous passing moves from a quarterback-type position (a quality that Pirlo possessed for example, albeit to a higher level in the deep-lying playmaker function). Also positionally/tactically intelligent and adaptive enough to maintain the collective defensive structure ahead of Koeman, which was easier said than done as it required refined acumen. Young Xavi, Iniesta, Fàbregas wouldn't be waxing lyrical about a run-of-the-mill midfielder in years to come while progressing through the academy, would they?
Xavi Names His Two Football Idols.
You're comparing somebody making 184 appearances with Liverpool and winning 0 league and titles with someone making 384 for Barcelona and winning 6 and believe these are statistically similar, or that someone might look at that and think they are?
What did Hoddle ever do as a manager
Brian Clough worth a shout before injury took his career
It's not i've already seen people overating him as being this amazing player because of his managerial success. He was a good player when in prime but he was nowhere near as good as some seem to think not to mention he was already passed it in the late 90s and then there's the drugs...
Was in a special team and crucial to how it functioned. Kind of like Busquets, not the greatest of players, but so important to the system which won a lot.
No I'm not picking random stats out of 2 different players' different careers. I'm also not suggesting he's better than Guardiola as I've already stated. I'm saying appearances and trophies, of which Vladimir Smicer has many, are not a very good way of judging how good a player is. Unless it's Gerrard's league title haul in which case it's definitely true.
A club career ending with 3 League titles and 1 Champs League for a player like him is a bit or a shit return so I can kinda understand why some of the younger folk don't have him up there.
Fair point. He only moved to Real though at what, 28/29? And tbf they were a joke of a club in terms of what they won with the talent they had in that era.
I like the last part and I know we're both aware enough to righlty rate Guardiola above Smicer. Can't say I ever watched a huge number of Guardiola's performances in his playing days, probably around 10, but that was enough to see he was above average as a footballer.
