Grenfell firemen didn’t save people because of their skin colour

[Drainy]

If anyone has a right to question British institutions, it's Mrs Lawrence.
Not that I agree with her previous position.

To be fair, she has more opportunity to question British institutions than most, and due to that she has a responsibility not to speak from a position of ignorance.

 

[Rams]

To be fair, she has more opportunity to question British institutions than most, and due to that she has a responsibility not to speak from a position of ignorance.

And the local councils have the responsibility to provide safe housing, and the police to protect the public, investigate crimes and catch criminals.

 

[Rams]

If anyone has a right to question British institutions, it's Mrs Lawrence.
Not that I agree with her previous position.

Nor do I.

 

[Drainy]

And the local councils have the responsibility to provide safe housing, and the police to protect the public, investigate crimes and catch criminals.

Of course and I've not said otherwise.

She was pointing fingers at the front line firemen who risked their lives, accusing them of racism from the position of being a Labour Peer without being in possession of any facts to indicate that. She hasn't acted in a manner that reflects well on her in this particular case.

 

[Rams]

Of course and I've not said otherwise.

She was pointing fingers at the front line firemen who risked their lives, accusing them of racism from the position of being a Labour Peer without being in possession of any facts to indicate that. She hasn't acted in a manner that reflects well on her in this particular case.

No, but considering her experiences surely she should be forgiven for making such remarks. The people responsible for the tower block in the other hand deserve to be locked up for life.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Whilst I sympathise with what has happened to her, and understand she might not be trusting of the establishment, that doesn't justify throwing unfounded accusations at extremely brave people who risked their lives to try and save people. She doesn't get a pass for that because of what she's been through, it's a mighty terrible thing to suggest without any grounds whatsoever.

She should've known far better, and has rightly apologised for her ignorance. Fair is fair.

 

[Drainy]

No, but considering her experiences surely she should be forgiven for making such remarks. The people responsible for the tower block in the other hand deserve to be locked up for life.

As a Labour Peer and former member of the Human Rights Joint Committee she has a level of responsibility to be more considered in her opinions. If you want to give her a pass then that is on you, but in my opinion people in a position of power should behave better.

She should not be defaming the men and women who risked their lives and worked to exhaustion to attempt to rescue the victims of the fire without actual evidence. Then giving a classic non-apology is just the kicker to her mishandling of this.

But yes, anyone responsible for the cladding should be facing serious charges.

 

[Rams]

As a Labour Peer and former member of the Human Rights Joint Committee she has a level of responsibility to be more considered in her opinions. If you want to give her a pass then that is on you, but in my opinion people in a position of power should behave better.

She should not be defaming the men and women who risked their lives and worked to exhaustion to attempt to rescue the victims of the fire without actual evidence. Then giving a classic non-apology is just the kicker to her mishandling of this.

But yes, anyone responsible for the cladding should be facing serious charges.

I can only imagine what it’s like to experience one of my children being murdered and then the police failing to do their duty and properly investigate the crime, all because of racial injustice.
Was she wrong to state what she did? Yes it was.
Is it understandable with her experiences that she came out with such bull shit? Of course it is.
The article in The Telegraph is yet another sad example of right wing media pushing a none story to stir up hatred towards people from a different political & social spectrum and ethnic background. The real issue here is the scandalous way a right wing council cut corners and saved money at the expense of people from poor working class backgrounds and the tragic loss of life as a result of it. Yet another example of the inequalities in society. The people responsible should be criminally prosecuted, yet once again nothing is happening and they are literally getting away with murder.

 

[Rams]

Whilst I sympathise with what has happened to her, and understand she might not be trusting of the establishment, that doesn't justify throwing unfounded accusations at extremely brave people who risked their lives to try and save people. She doesn't get a pass for that because of what she's been through, it's a mighty terrible thing to suggest without any grounds whatsoever.

She should've known far better, and has rightly apologised for her ignorance. Fair is fair.

Would you condemn a holocaust survivor for hating all Germans?
Btw, I wonder what the chances are of The Daily Borisgraph publishing her apology?

 

[lsd]

Im sure she has a point and im totally not surprised at all

 

[TheReligion]

Glad she's apologised.

Hope she engages her brain in future before posting such inflammatory nonsense. She should be setting an example.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Would you condemn a holocaust survivor for hating all Germans?
Btw, I wonder what the chances are of The Daily Borisgraph publishing her apology?

Condemn? I probably wouldn't be too active in condemning someone who had suffered such trauma, but I'd certainly oppose it. Especially if the survivor was also including the Germans who helped try and save people from the holocaust, such as Karl Plagge. Equally, whilst I understand this woman's pain and mistrust, what she has said is wrong and harmful, and should be called out. I'm happy with the fact she's apologised, and hopefully in future she will focus on the people who deserve condemnation, i.e not the firemen in Grenfell who deserve nothing but the highest praise.

Probably not that high. We all know the Telegraph have an agenda, and that they're far from an unbiased source of news. And I agree with the other sentiments in this thread that whilst this lady was 100% in the wrong, there are far bigger crimes that were committed around Grenfell, and those crimes deserve full scrunity.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Fair play to LFB and FBU for their response, didn't attack a woman who has been through a lot and instead talked to her directly and changed her mind constructively.

 

[Rams]

Fair play to LFB and FBU for their response, didn't attack a woman who has been through a lot and instead talked to her directly and changed her mind constructively.

The Daily Telegraph could have also have chosen that approach.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

The Daily Telegraph could have also have chosen that approach.

As I understand it Baroness Lawrence made her comments live on air during a Channel 4 interview.

 

[Prometheus]

Condemn? I probably wouldn't be too active in condemning someone who had suffered such trauma, but I'd certainly oppose it. Especially if the survivor was also including the Germans who helped try and save people from the holocaust, such as Karl Plagge. Equally, whilst I understand this woman's pain and mistrust, what she has said is wrong and harmful, and should be called out.

Don't you think the bold bits highlight a disparity in your reactions to the two situations?

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Don't you think the bold bits highlight a disparity in your reactions to the two situations?

Not really.

I wouldn’t aggressively criticise her, merely say that what she has said is incorrect and harmful, which it is. Just because somebody has suffered a wrong that doesn’t mean they’re immune to being told they are incorrect.

But because of what she’s been through, I’m not about to call her names or be overly aggressive in criticising her. If someone without her background suggested this, I wouldn’t treat them the same way.

Same goes with the hypothetical. If someone with that background made that suggestion, I’d say they are wrong and should apologise, but if that same suggestion was made by somebody without that background .. I’d be a lot more damming.

 

[Drainy]

I can only imagine what it’s like to experience one of my children being murdered and then the police failing to do their duty and properly investigate the crime, all because of racial injustice.
Was she wrong to state what she did? Yes it was.
Is it understandable with her experiences that she came out with such bull shit? Of course it is.
The article in The Telegraph is yet another sad example of right wing media pushing a none story to stir up hatred towards people from a different political & social spectrum and ethnic background. The real issue here is the scandalous way a right wing council cut corners and saved money at the expense of people from poor working class backgrounds and the tragic loss of life as a result of it. Yet another example of the inequalities in society. The people responsible should be criminally prosecuted, yet once again nothing is happening and they are literally getting away with murder.

She can talk as much blathering crap as she wants as a member of the public and we could accept it. Christ knows everyone else does, and she has more reason than most.
Of course she has also experienced systemic racism in the police but that does not mean that her experience can be Homer Simpson make-up shotgunned across every member of every public body.

As a member of the House of Lords she has a duty to be in possession of actual facts before speaking in an inflammatory, conspiritorial and defamatory way, regardless of her history.

Perhaps her ire should be focused on the correct people?

I posted a similar comment regarding the article earlier in the thread. I think she was dangerously wrong, she should give a full apology for her comments and the telegraph know how this kind of story plays out. I'm not saying that because she was wrong that the paper, council or private contractors were right..

 

[Rado_N]

Im sure she has a point and im totally not surprised at all

Care to expand on this?

 

[Prometheus]

Just because somebody has suffered a wrong that doesn’t mean they’re immune to being told they are incorrect.

I get what you're saying, but considering what another public response agency did to this lady I don't think I'd find within myself to criticise her for having similar beliefs in this case. But also it's hard to get outraged on behalf of the fire service based on what we know so far, but we'll see what the inquiry concludes.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

I get what you're saying, but considering what another public response agency did to this lady I don't think I'd find within myself to criticise her for having similar beliefs in this case. But also it's hard to get outraged on behalf of the fire service based on what we know so far, but we'll see what the inquiry concludes.

It's perfectly easy to get outraged on the behalf of the fire service based on what we know so far.

 

[lsd]

Care to expand on this?

There is just so much racism in all levels today whether its in UK America or elsewhere im really not surprised that could be racist fire fighters who would think to themselves im not risking my life to save black people .

We live in a screwed up society America has a racist President UK have millions of people who voted to destroy their country in the mistaken belief it would keep muslims out .Videos every day of proffesional adults abusing people in public because of their skin .

If i had the power i would destroy this world and start over but fortunately there are enough people doing that anyway

 

[cyberman]

There is just so much racism in all levels today whether its in UK America or elsewhere im really not surprised that could be racist fire fighters who would think to themselves im not risking my life to save black people .

We live in a screwed up society America has a racist President UK have millions of people who voted to destroy their country in the mistaken belief it would keep muslims out .Videos every day of proffesional adults abusing people in public because of their skin .

If i had the power i would destroy this world and start over but fortunately there are enough people doing that anyway

How would they even know the skin colour of those trapped inside?

 

[FlawlessThaw]

How would they even know the skin colour of those trapped inside?

To be fair you don't have to be a genius to know a large proportion of the people in Grenfall weren't white particularly if you lived nearby or in London.

Not saying that the firefighters had this thought at all. I think unconcious bias exists but anyone who saw the flames up close could never have been thinking that way.

 

[2 man midfield]

There is just so much racism in all levels today whether its in UK America or elsewhere im really not surprised that could be racist fire fighters who would think to themselves im not risking my life to save black people .

We live in a screwed up society America has a racist President UK have millions of people who voted to destroy their country in the mistaken belief it would keep muslims out .Videos every day of proffesional adults abusing people in public because of their skin .

If i had the power i would destroy this world and start over but fortunately there are enough people doing that anyway

It's certainly possible that a few fire fighters could be racist, the same as anyone at any level of society. It's not impossible.

Does that mean that you should open your mouth and publicly accuse the brave people who risked their lives running into a building of predominantly non-white people of being racist though? Definitely not. I sympathise with her story, but Jesus Christ sometimes you just have to use your common sense.

 

[Sweet Square]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Reminder that these people don't care at all.

 

[SteveTheRed]

High profile campaigner or the mother of a son who was brutally murdered because of his skin colour and then the coppers spent a decade or so doing feck all to catch the white middle class offenders?
Surely any self respecting journalist or newspaper would understand why somebody with her experiences might be suspicious towards authorities and then realize it would be much more newsworthy & important to investigate why the fecking local council permitted turning a densely populated tower into a fecking match stick??? But no, let’s all turn on Doreen Lawrence, the mad bitch...

Can they not do both?

If someone wants to come out with such a idiotic hurtful statement then they deserve the heat. Regardless if she is relevant to the crux of the matter, she has a following and some morons will take the idea and run with it - it's going to be reported.

 

[dbs235]

Were the firefighting crew entirely white then?

 

[Moved To Differently]

Glad she's apologised.

Hope she engages her brain in future before posting such inflammatory nonsense. She should be setting an example.

Yikes

 

[Moved To Differently]

Can they not do both?

If someone wants to come out with such a idiotic hurtful statement then they deserve the heat. Regardless if she is relevant to the crux of the matter, she has a following and some morons will take the idea and run with it - it's going to be reported.

I agree, imagine anybody speaking in a manner that isn't super-ordinately sensitive to the topic at hand, traumatised or not.

 

[Member 60376]

Moronic statement that does more harm than good.

Yeah horrible thing to say

 

[Moved To Differently]

Yeah horrible thing to say

Grenfell: Seven key points from the report

"Quite apart from its remarkable insensitivity to the families of the deceased and to those who had escaped from their burning homes with their lives, the commissioner's evidence that she would not change anything about the response of the LFB on the night, even with the benefit of hindsight, only serves to demonstrate that the LFB is an institution at risk of not learning the lessons of the Grenfell Tower fire."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50237732

 

[Drainy]

Grenfell: Seven key points from the report

"Quite apart from its remarkable insensitivity to the families of the deceased and to those who had escaped from their burning homes with their lives, the commissioner's evidence that she would not change anything about the response of the LFB on the night, even with the benefit of hindsight, only serves to demonstrate that the LFB is an institution at risk of not learning the lessons of the Grenfell Tower fire."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50237732

Here we are. Blame the firemen.

'benefit of hindsight' yes I'm sure if they knew the flats were fecking flammable they would have acted differently, but they didn't and I'm sure that the commissioners actual evidence would make that distinction clear. What a fecking stitch up.

 

[TheReligion]

An inquiry isn't meant to attribute blame but is designed to identify learning.

It seems all this is doing is causing people to believe this is the LFBs fault.

Very sad really.

 

[Drainy]

An inquiry isn't meant to attribute blame.

Maybe that is true if you are a politician!

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Here we are. Blame the firemen.

'benefit of hindsight' yes I'm sure if they knew the flats were fecking flammable they would have acted differently, but they didn't and I'm sure that the commissioners actual evidence would make that distinction clear. What a fecking stitch up.

The problem is that they did know it was flammable, right? Everyone did, and they warned the council's and government about it repeatedly. And the government just plain didn't give a feck.

The fire service were fighting a losing battle. Against a building that was erupting. A near unstoppable force. Death incarnate.

And what did these fire fighters do? They ran towards those flames to rescue the people inside. They're all fecking heroes who should be praised every single day for what they do. But instead, along with the trauma that they'll feel every day when they remember the devastation that must have hit every one of their senses that day, they're thrown to the wolves by a bunch of cowards who were warned by everyone time and again of the risks and ignored them. These people should be locked up for murder due to neglect as far as I'm concerned.

This is like Hillsborough to me. Victims are being blamed by public officials doing their best to cover their own failures and save their own arses. It's disgusting.

 

[Moved To Differently]

The problem is that they did know it was flammable, right? Everyone did, and they warned the council's and government about it repeatedly. And the government just plain didn't give a feck.

The fire service were fighting a losing battle. Against a building that was erupting. A near unstoppable force. Death incarnate.

And what did these fire fighters do? They ran towards those flames to rescue the people inside. They're all fecking heroes who should be praised every single day for what they do. But instead, along with the trauma that they'll feel every day when they remember the devastation that must have hit every one of their senses that day, they're thrown to the wolves by a bunch of cowards who were warned by everyone time and again of the risks and ignored them. These people should be locked up for murder due to neglect as far as I'm concerned.

This is like Hillsborough to me. Victims are being blamed by public officials doing their best to cover their own failures and save their own arses. It's disgusting.

You can and probably should be critical of any emergency service when the results of their intervention were sub-optimal, like say dozens of people dying. Just because people are critical of the LFB here doesn't necessarily mean anybody's questioning the bravery or commitment of the men who entered the building, the question is at the organisational level was there a lack of foresight, planning or co-ordination and if so, to what do you attribute that failing? Was it negligence and if so on the part of whom?

It seems to me they do have a case to answer because if they understood that the cladding on the outside of the building had no fire-retardant capability then the moment the fire spread to the outside of the building from the first flat, the advice that was given to 'stay put' should have been abandoned and they should have co-ordinated an evacuation - which they've admitted they had no plan for, because no contingency was considered beyond the initial plan to 'stay put'.

Merely dismissing any possible criticism of the fire service because they risk their lives to save lives is a bewilderingly relaxed viewpoint to take because what if something similar should occur in the future?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

You can and probably should be critical of any emergency service when the results of their intervention were sub-optimal, like say dozens of people dying. Just because people are critical of the LFB here doesn't necessarily mean anybody's questioning the bravery or commitment of the men who entered the building, the question is at the organisational level was there a lack of foresight, planning or co-ordination and if so, to what do you attribute that failing? Was it negligence and if so on the part of whom?

It seems to me they do have a case to answer because if they understood that the cladding on the outside of the building had no fire-retardant capability then the moment the fire spread to the outside of the building from the first flat, the advice that was given to 'stay put' should have been abandoned and they should have co-ordinated an evacuation - which they've admitted they had no plan for, because no contingency was considered beyond the initial plan to 'stay put'.

Merely dismissing any possible criticism of the fire service because they risk their lives to save lives is a bewilderingly relaxed viewpoint to take because what if something similar should occur in the future?

Just one question; why are their failings the first ones to be released? Why not the failings of those more to blame for the danger in the first place. That's the problem here.

 

[Moved To Differently]

Just one question; why are their failings the first ones to be released? Why not the failings of those more to blame for the danger in the first place. That's the problem here.

Perhaps, and I'm not disagreeing with you - it'd be less than desirable if the only conclusion from this is that the LFB are solely culpable which will undoubtably be the direction to which certain people would like to push the narrative for the sake of self-preservation, but if they have a case to answer, and there's good reason to suggest they do, then why does it matter in what order blame is aportioned? What do you mean by 'more to blame'? Who decides in what order findings are discovered?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Perhaps, and I'm not disagreeing with you - it'd be less than desirable if the only conclusion from this is that the LFB are solely culpable which will undoubtably be the direction to which certain people would like to push the narrative for the sake of self-preservation, but if they have a case to answer, and there's good reason to suggest they do, then why does it matter in what order blame is aportioned? What do you mean by 'more to blame'? Who decides in what order findings are discovered?

In the court of public opinion this will be decided in the simplest of possible terms, and it already has. Instead of waiting for the full findings these little bits have been "leaked". From this point any findings that can put responsibility on others will be swept under the carpet or diminished. It's simple control of information.

I suppose the big question is; of all the failures from Greenfell what makes the failings of the fire service more prevalent and damaging than years or neglect and ignorance from officials who were repeatedly warned that this sort of thing could happen?