Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

^ But is not much of what you are talking about there (failures to abide by known regulations) the purview of an ongoing police investigation? At least in so far as the RBKC is concerned.



Update -

Both the local Labour MP and shadow fire minister are now called for Moore-Bick step down.

3 NHS Trusts have cladding which has failed combustibility tests, the locations being: King's College, London; North Middlesex Teaching Hospital; Sheffield Children's Hospital.

 

[GloryHunter07]

@noodlehair how do we know there were not barriers on the cladding?

 

[noodlehair]

^ But is not much of what you are talking about there (failures to abide by known regulations) the purview of an ongoing police investigation? At least in so far as the RBKC is concerned.

Yes but you don't hear a peep about it from any government official. Yet they have kicked up enough of a fuss over the cladding to have people going around the entire country ripping it from every public building it is on. The cladding didn't "fail" as such. It did what you'd expect a flammable material to do when it is set on fire. It had a fire rating on this basis. The fact it was never installed properly in the first place and that the building itself wasn't up to standard is what should be the focus of the issue.

@noodlehair how do we know there were not barriers on the cladding?

Because the speed at which the fire spread up and across the building would have been pretty much impossible if fire stopping was in place. It engulfed an entire side of the entire building in the time the Fire Brigade would have realistically expected it not to have spread even beyond the flat in which the fire was started.

It's also been confirmed in Fire investigations already that the fire was able to spread via the cavity between the cladding and the building, which again should not be possible if fire barriers are in place.

It's speculating yes, but in a similar way to driving your car off a cliff and then speculating that gravity is what caused it to fall to the bottom.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

The link above rather conveniently does say that.

The advice they are getting seems pretty poor and to be aimed at serving interests other than the survivors'.

So not the link you responded to. An telling assumption on your part then. As is the fact that the actual letter posted in the further article you now wish to cite makes several objections regarding the appointment of Moor-Bick as chair of the enquiry - none of which directly relate to his whiteness but rather the lack of consultation, his history and his areas of competence.

The fact you wish to categorise their objections as "objecting to a rich white dude" such says far more about you than it does about the quality of their advisers I'm afraid.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

^ It would be disingenuous to suggest that some of those claiming to represent survivors have not cited his race or or background. Moore-Bick was the recommendation of the Lord Chief Justice apparently, a figure which heads our independent judiciary. Contrastingly, some of the leading voices at Justice4Grenfell appear to be unscrupulous opportunists (not residents).

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[Ekkie Thump]

^Point me to the line in either article here posted where race was cited as grounds for Moore-Bick's removal by either group representing the Grenfell victims and then explain why you think that aspect deserves more emphasis than the ones they actually state.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Grenfell inquiry: critics of Martin Moore-Bick are dabbling in fearmongering

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-martin-moore-bick-are-dabbling-fearmongering



A few MPs in particular could benefit from reading the above article.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

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[rcoobc]

The guardian list of answers to the questions wall was really interesting, and sad for the victims..

Seems like its going to take a very, very, very long time to convict anyone (unless an obvious law was broken)

It could take half a decade

 

[GloryHunter07]

I appreciate there is a level of mistrust in the authorities but how is arresting people without enough evidence going to help? Who do they want arrested?

 

[Snowjoe]

I appreciate there is a level of mistrust in the authorities but how is arresting people without enough evidence going to help? Who do they want arrested?

I imagine when you've been through that you want someone to blame to start to make sense of the whole situation.

 

[GloryHunter07]

I imagine when you've been through that you want someone to blame to start to make sense of the whole situation.

Fair enough, its an emotional time but i feel like the survivors movement is being railroaded by some nutters.

 

[Silva]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40747241

 

[Jippy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40747241

I'd be amazed if they can get the charges to stick and feck knows how you'd get an impartial jury, given pretty much the entire country was horrified by the event.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

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[KanieKaned]

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I find that hard to believe.

 

[JustAFan]

I find that hard to believe.

They are not claiming a huge drop in the number of deaths are they?

 

[KanieKaned]

They are not claiming a huge drop in the number of deaths are they?

The article says the death toll may be slightly lower than expected.

 

[JustAFan]

The article says the death toll may be slightly lower than expected.

So why so hard to believe?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

So why so hard to believe?

Conspiracy theorists believe far more were killed than has been reported.

 

[Snowjoe]

I'd always be a little sceptical over a final number anyway, not because of conspiracy or anything more because I doubt they have a clue who was actually living there compared to who was meant to be living there.

 

[GloryHunter07]

I find conspiracy theories about this quite distasteful.

 

[Redlambs]

I'd always be a little sceptical over a final number anyway, not because of conspiracy or anything more because I doubt they have a clue who was actually living there compared to who was meant to be living there.

Exactly this.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I'd always be a little sceptical over a final number anyway, not because of conspiracy or anything more because I doubt they have a clue who was actually living there compared to who was meant to be living there.

The only people that could have fallen through the net would have been absolute loners that were there illegally. People that had no friends or families, no social media connections or a mobile phone to call people for help whilst they were trapped. How many people like that do you think we're in there?

 

[JustAFan]

I'd always be a little sceptical over a final number anyway, not because of conspiracy or anything more because I doubt they have a clue who was actually living there compared to who was meant to be living there.

That I can see. The article sort of touches on the issue of anyone living there without outside connections. We may never know the true final count only an officially confirmed dead, which is the number that might be slightly lower than originally estimated.

 

[Snowjoe]

The only people that could have fallen through the net would have been absolute loners that were there illegally. People that had no friends or families, no social media connections or a mobile phone to call people for help whilst they were trapped. How many people like that do you think we're in there?

It could be more than we think, I've lived in countless places where I've sublet but my friends and family don't actually know where I live and officially I don't live anywhere, you don't have to be a loner for that to happen, especially when I was living abroad.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It could be more than we think, I've lived in countless places where I've sublet but my friends and family don't actually know where I live and officially I don't live anywhere, you don't have to be a loner for that to happen, especially when I was living abroad.

You have to be a loner to disappear from the face of the earth without anyone noticing. People in the tower called their loved ones when they knew there was no way out. How many people in their last moments wouldn't reach out, what would you have done in the same situation?

 

[Silva]

You have to be a loner to disappear from the face of the earth without anyone noticing. People in the tower called their loved ones when they knew there was no way out. How many people in their last moments wouldn't reach out, what would you have done in the same situation?

Some people will reach out as you say, others might make a last ditch attempt to leave and pass out from the smoke. Hard to say what you'd do unless you're in it.

 

[Rado_N]

I find conspiracy theories about this quite distasteful.

Are there conspiracy theories about anything which are not distasteful?

 

[Snowjoe]

You have to be a loner to disappear from the face of the earth without anyone noticing. People in the tower called their loved ones when they knew there was no way out. How many people in their last moments wouldn't reach out, what would you have done in the same situation?

They'd notice you disappearing yeah but it'd be a while if they had no idea where to even start. I dunno what I would have done but you can't know, just as many people who called loved ones could have fought until they were done to get out, others might never have even woken up.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Some people will reach out as you say, others might make a last ditch attempt to leave and pass out from the smoke. Hard to say what you'd do unless you're in it.

It happened over quite a long time period though. The couple I heard on the radio that called their family initially called them just to tell them about the fire, that they had been told to stay put, they called back later to say they couldn't get out saying their goodbyes.

For someone to totally disappear they would have to be

1. An illegal tennant
2. Have no friends or family they tried to reach during the fire
3. Didn't reach out to the emergency services at any time during the fire
4. Didn't have any social media that they posted on during the fire
5. Subsequently didn't have any friends or family that may have been distant or estranged looking for them afterwards

I think the number of people fitting that criteria would be pretty small.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

You have to be a loner to disappear from the face of the earth without anyone noticing. People in the tower called their loved ones when they knew there was no way out. How many people in their last moments wouldn't reach out, what would you have done in the same situation?

For one whole families were wiped out. Secondandly subletting in this building was supposedly prolific. Thirdly many victims were first generation immigrants without an extended family in the country. Lastly some victims were completely incinerated.

If there isn't an official record of someone staying there they wouldn't simply add them to the death toll because a person or family were reported as missing persons.

When you factor all those points in you would assume the probability of under reporting of deaths to be quite high even if unintentional.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

For one whole families were wiped out. Secondandly subletting in this building was supposedly prolific. Thirdly many victims were first generation immigrants without an extended family in the country. Lastly some victims were completely incinerated.

If there isn't an official record of someone staying there they wouldn't simply add them to the death toll because a person or family were reported as missing persons.

When you factor all those points in you would assume the probability of under reporting of deaths to be quite high even if unintentional.

I don't see it. The idea that a whole family can disappear without anyone noticing is even less likely. First generation immigrants are still connected, they have smart phones and social media profiles too you know.

There was also an amnesty on sub letters volunteering information wasn't there?

 

[KanieKaned]

I'd always be a little sceptical over a final number anyway, not because of conspiracy or anything more because I doubt they have a clue who was actually living there compared to who was meant to be living there.

Exactly my thoughts. Not to mention finding the remains of someone and then identifying them after such a fire.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Are there conspiracy theories about anything which are not distasteful?

Chemtrails

 

[Phil]

Didn't get good news for the girl I know from work who was a victim of this. Also took them 2 months to confirm through dental records. Really sad, such a nice girl, loved to chat to her.

 

[JustAFan]

It happened over quite a long time period though. The couple I heard on the radio that called their family initially called them just to tell them about the fire, that they had been told to stay put, they called back later to say they couldn't get out saying their goodbyes.

For someone to totally disappear they would have to be

1. An illegal tennant
2. Have no friends or family they tried to reach during the fire
3. Didn't reach out to the emergency services at any time during the fire
4. Didn't have any social media that they posted on during the fire
5. Subsequently didn't have any friends or family that may have been distant or estranged looking for them afterwards

I think the number of people fitting that criteria would be pretty small.

One question is how many of these people that nobody would miss or have any idea they were living there be victims? 20? 30? 49? 100? 2?

 

[VeevaVee]

These flats have been painted out to be for poor people and fairly rundown (and they kinda looked like they'd be that way from the outside tbh). These pictures took me by surprise with how nice they were.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Grenfell_21st_floor

 

[Smores]

These flats have been painted out to be for poor people and fairly rundown (and they kinda looked like they'd be that way from the outside tbh). These pictures took me by surprise with how nice they were.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Grenfell_21st_floor

And...? People decorated and in some cases purchased the old council flats and did them up. Doesn't change the state of structural disrepair to the building or the dangerous practices. I really don't get the point of this article

 

[VeevaVee]

And...? People decorated and in some cases purchased the old council flats and did them up. Doesn't change the state of structural disrepair to the building or the dangerous practices. I really don't get the point of this article

What do you mean 'and?'? It's just interesting considering how they've been portrayed. And the point is to give some more background on it and the people that lived there.