Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

jojojo

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I used to work for Building Control in Scotland. Something like this happening is sickening. They're questioning the cladding for example. So if a Building Warrant Application was made for re-cladding a tower, the Building Control officer would check the specification to make sure that the cladding complied, fire stops were being installed in the correct places etc. Once they were happy with the info. provided they would grant a warrant. That meant that the work could commence on site. When the work was complete the building control officer would then grant a completion certificate if he was satisfied with the work. Before doing so they had to make "reasonable enquiry" this could be a combination of site visits, photographs, certificates etc. The problem is that the Building Control Officer can't reasonably inspect every detail, because they have dozens of jobs to look at. The responsibility is sort of passed to the person applying for Completion - they are saying that it complies with the Warrant when they do that. Its just up to the Building Control Officer to accept that or not. So for fire stops behind the cladding for example. There's no way a Building Control officer would see them all. The site agent/supervisor maybe check a few but again, I can't see him having time to check them all. So who are these important details left to. Maybe a sub-contractor, maybe just the operatives themselves. They're saying the cladding installed complied with fire regs. But how do we know what was used was actually what was specified? What if they specified a suitable material but used something cheaper on site?That might get past the Building Control officer if he just done a visual inspection. Its frightening, it's really sad. Building Control wasn't for me in the end. I was a control freak over it, I couldn't check every screw and nail that was on site but I worried and felt like I wanted to. So, I got out. I'm just thinking out loud here over how on Earth this could happen, because it's horrific. It looks to me like there is not just one thing gone wrong, like 1 fire stop not in position. This looks like a multitude of failings to me. The poor people.
Good post.

Specification and inspection is never the whole story. The pressure to cost reduce, the incentives for poor quality substitutions, failings of individual staff whether that's down to time pressure, lack of training or just plain incompetence/indifference, it all clocks up. Safety is a financial and cultural issue more often than a technical one.

Dealing with a refurbishment adds extra problems, whether due to missing/inaccurate drawings or unexpected consequences of removing or exposing parts of the old structure. Whatever happened this morning, it will take a lot to build confidence that similar buildings are safe and that renovation work can be done safely.
 

Sassy Colin

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The is an old tower block in the centre of Maidenhead which used to be offices, which they are converting to flats.

Part of the refurbishment is cladding to make it look more modern. I am guessing they might have to start again, after this.
 

montpelier

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Performance of maintenance tasks & improvements proceed completely in line with what our Building Quality friend was saying just a little way back. @Noc-Z

They pay the Contractors at a scrooge-like rate so the tendency is for them to be both not bothered & not very good.

This will be a series of feck ups, I can hear it coming, intertwined with pinning the blame on the Tenants if they can get away with it - scale of this might go beyond that being doable I suppose.

@Silva is right about the practicalities & it might be a 'difficult' client group but they're not even trying to care most of the time.
(and vested interests)

They get plenty of funding btw with which to turn a profit /increase the value of the balance sheet, which is all they are bothered about.

Ours come round, do fire inspections & then have no record of them having taken place. Beyond the property having been signed-off as okay-ish I expect.
 

diarm

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Well to a degree yes but one of the main complaints highlighted for example was the instruction to "remain in your flat" if there is a fire elsewhere in the building...this is actually in accordance with Fire Brigade guidelines for these types of buildings. So nothing there has been ignored.

It's complex. You can argue that if people had evacuated, they might have got out. You can also argue that if the building had been functioning in accordance with guidelines, the fire would have spread slowly enough to allow them to be evacuated without endangering themselves by trying to escape through fire or smoke logged corridoors.

Before you can start blaming people for legislation or requirements that are in place being wrong, you have to figure out whether the current legislation and requirements were actually followed in the first place, and if not whether that is to blame for what happened.

At the end of the day it could be a lot of things. You can have correct legislation and guidelines in place, but if someone who lives there decides to wedge a fire door open for example, it makes it pretty irrelevant.

This isn't exactly something that happens every week. It's pretty unprecedented on the scale that seems to have happened here. So there's two stages really. 1) Finding out as quickly as possible how the fire spread so easily, why people weren't protected as they should have been, and whether the same risks apply elsewhere. 2) Then looking at whether anyone should be held accountable, whether the current guidelines are adequate or just weren't followed etc.
Fair points all. As you've pointed out there will be complex elements to such an investigation which shouldn't be rushed.

At the same time, there will be less complex failings which those culpable will use the technical complexities to hide behind. It seems obvious that residents and experts have been calling for action for some time in fear of exactly such an event.

I just hope that if it turns out lives could have been protected by having fire alarms and sprinkler systems in high rise blocks of flats as standard, those responsible for preventing such basic standards are brought to justice.

The longer an investigation takes, the less confidence I have in that happening.
 

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Even if it turns out previously proposed legislation wouldn't have stopped this fire it's pretty obvious that the laws and enforcement of laws on rental and social housing is pretty substandard. Part of the reason is that it's just impossible to achieve perfect safety, but there's also a clear conflict of interest when about a third of MPs in the last parliament were landlords.

I think most of us rent, or have rented in the past, and between us we'll have countless complaints.
I don't think we need to draw any broader conclusions from this specific case. The blog the tenants wrote warning this would happen is damning enough for everyone involved. We've no idea whether or not the issues they raised are systemic or widespread though.
 

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The is an old tower block in the centre of Maidenhead which used to be offices, which they are converting to flats.

Part of the refurbishment is cladding to make it look more modern. I am guessing they might have to start again, after this.
It's quite common - know of plenty of areas in my town that have had cladding added/installed as part of refurbishments.
 

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The priority should be establishing what went wrong, and ensuring that other buildings in violation are brought up to standard or evacuated. Not a witch-hunt for wrong-doers (establishing criminal negligence is a process that takes time anyways).
Both can be done simultaneously, and if the situations in other hazardous properties is similar, then getting the authorities behind this mess straight will be the only thing that can help in that. If the other landlords see that you can pull something like this off and not have any consequences then why would they improve their properties? What you said will be have to done by the landlords at the end of the day, no one else can go there and install fire safety equipment or anything.
 

montpelier

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It's quite common - know of plenty of areas in my town that have had cladding added/installed as part of refurbishments.
Yeah, it's root seems to be an obsession with reducing fuel usage (heating bills). What they've done with some blocks down here is convert the external balcony into an extra room & then loads of this cladding - which I *think* is supposed to be treated before the contractors clear off. And (speculation) clearly didn't happen here.
 

pascell

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The is an old tower block in the centre of Maidenhead which used to be offices, which they are converting to flats.

Part of the refurbishment is cladding to make it look more modern. I am guessing they might have to start again, after this.
Not necessarily, it depends on the type of cladding they're installing and also the fire safety measures already installed in the building, i.e Sprinkler system, type of windows, smoke detectors, fire alarms, fire safety doors and fire resisting plasterboard.

I'd expect the refurbishment project you mention will be heavily scrutinised and heavily inspected. What they need to ensure is that fire/smoke detection is spot on, evacuation points are easily accessible and that the fire is segregated and isn't able to spread as quick so the fire rescue team have a good chance of putting it out before it turns into the same situation as the one that's happened.
 

Cheesy

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Yeah, it's root seems to be an obsession with reducing fuel usage (heating bills). What they've done with some blocks down here is convert the external balcony into an extra room & then loads of this cladding - which I *think* is supposed to be treated before the contractors clear off. And (speculation) clearly didn't happen here.
Yup, it's what they were saying on the news, it not only looks better, but it also provides insulation. No good if it isn't fire retardant though.
Aye, from what I'd known it was a good thing - more modern, more efficient etc, but obviously not ideal in a case like this.
 

Sassy Colin

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Not necessarily, it depends on the type of cladding they're installing and also the fire safety measures already installed in the building, i.e Sprinkler system, type of windows, smoke detectors, fire alarms, fire safety doors and fire resisting plasterboard.

I'd expect the refurbishment project you mention will be heavily scrutinised and heavily inspected. What they need to ensure is that fire/smoke detection is spot on, evacuation points are easily accessible and that the fire is segregated and isn't able to spread as quick so the fire rescue team have a good chance of putting it out before it turns into the same situation as the one that's happened.
That was supposed to be the case in this building.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Yup, it's what they were saying on the news, it not only looks better, but it also provides insulation. No good if it isn't fire retardant though.
So as @montpelier said is the cladding supposed to be treated to make it fire retardant? Would it be possible to take some of the cladding from the lower floors that aren't as damaged and test to see if the chemicals are there to make it fire retardent? If they aren't, then somebody will seriously be in the shit.
 

montpelier

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Aye, from what I'd known it was a good thing - more modern, more efficient etc, but obviously not ideal in a case like this.
Absolutely a good thing you'd think. But those Grenfell documents aren't a surprise in any way, they are exactly what it's like. Even in one of them where they almost say, you aren't taking our complaints seriously because it's us that is making them.

If you want to research what the good ideas & original principles were, see what you can stumble across if you Google research ''Decent Homes Scheme'' & it should start to make some sense, it's been 'mismanaged' by the Landlord's & the culmination is this, would probably be my (fairly jaundiced, admittedly) opinion.
 

noodlehair

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Even if it turns out previously proposed legislation wouldn't have stopped this fire it's pretty obvious that the laws and enforcement of laws on rental and social housing is pretty substandard. Part of the reason is that it's just impossible to achieve perfect safety, but there's also a clear conflict of interest when about a third of MPs in the last parliament were landlords.

I think most of us rent, or have rented in the past, and between us we'll have countless complaints.
Those laws and fire safety aren't really the same thing though. Most of those laws relate to living conditions and rights for people who live in rented housing. This doesn't cover Fire Safety. That's looked after by Building Regulations and Fire Brigade legislation, which has in the past always proved to be pretty effective, and does generally adapt and change when needed. This is very much a one off incident.

And again, it's first of all about whether those requirements were even met...because if they were for a start it shouldn't have been possible for the fire to spread as quickly as it did. You can literally see the cladding lighting up like it's paper and spreading from one panel to another...again, there ARE rules in place that should prevent this from being possible, which suggests they simply weren't followed.

You can add a requirement to have a working sprinkler system in place for example, but if someone doesn't follow that requirement then it's irrelevant, and it becomes instead about why they were allowed not to...and finding out who is at fault and why can take time.

Fair points all. As you've pointed out there will be complex elements to such an investigation which shouldn't be rushed.

At the same time, there will be less complex failings which those culpable will use the technical complexities to hide behind. It seems obvious that residents and experts have been calling for action for some time in fear of exactly such an event.

I just hope that if it turns out lives could have been protected by having fire alarms and sprinkler systems in high rise blocks of flats as standard, those responsible for preventing such basic standards are brought to justice.

The longer an investigation takes, the less confidence I have in that happening.
What will probably happen is they'll establish the cause and why what happened did fairly quickly (the Fire Brigade have people who are really amazingly good at finding these things out), but then finding out who is to blame can be complex. It not so much people hiding behind things, it's just that you have the contractors, the Surveyors, the Fire Risk assessor, etc.

One will say "well they said this was ok and signed it off", another will say "I signed this off based on what I was told and could see"...no one is necessarily lying and most likely if something went wrong it would have been by accident...generally they will get there but there is going to be a lot of different information to sift through.

You wont find people who decide whether or not to introduce new legislation being blamed or held accountable, because as mentioned, until this incident there's been no previous evidence to suggest the current legislation isn't fit for purpose...and even so, just from looking a the way the fire spread, it's pretty clear the current legislation wasn't followed.

What it might help do if they can prove sprinklers or a fully integrated fire alarm system would have saved lives, is help to push through a change in legislation to introduce this. Although, we have a block of flats across from our work that does have a fully integrated fire alarm system, and it really causes no end of problems. It means the whole building should be evacuated every time someone burns some toast, so people just end up ignoring it.

Sprinklers would obviously help but until now there's been no real evidence that they should be a requirement...and again working fire separation would obviously also have been helpful here. By the same token a block of flats could have a sprinkler system that doesn't work and it would be of no use to anyone.
 

rcoobc

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Absolutely a good thing you'd think. But those Grenfell documents aren't a surprise in any way, they are exactly what it's like. Even in one of them where they almost say, you aren't taking our complaints seriously because it's us that is making them.

If you want to research what the good ideas & original principles were, see what you can stumble across if you Google research ''Decent Homes Scheme'' & it should start to make some sense, it's been 'mismanaged' by the Landlord's & the culmination is this, would probably be my (fairly jaundiced, admittedly) opinion.
Pretty sure my privately rented house would fail this. Constant issues with damp, no insulation to speak of.

But it's a 19th century grade II listed cottage so they are fairly limited in what can be done.

Then they asked to put the rent up 10% last year. I rejected it. We settled on 3%.

But pretty sure they are going to kick us out in August just as my Son starts school.

Anyway
 

montpelier

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Pretty sure my privately rented house would fail this. Constant issues with damp, no insulation to speak of.

But it's a 19th century grade II listed cottage so they are fairly limited in what can be done.

Then they asked to put the rent up 10% last year. I rejected it. We settled on 3%.

But pretty sure they are going to kick us out in August just as my Son starts school.

Anyway
Sorry to hear that & agree if you want to say that's part of the stupidity too & not right in some ways & so on. What we do have though is different scenarios where the common factor is Landlords taking the piss. Meanwhile, in Parliament they vote against it being compulsory for Landlord's to provide habitable lets. (that legislation might have got 'talked out' to be strictly accurate)

All they care about giving proper consideration to is the opportunity for profit, even if it only exists on paper, in the accounts.
 

montpelier

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That was supposed to be the case in this building.
To try & answer the question to which this refers...

The cladding issue is related to the fire taking hold & spreading on the outside - with re-entry into the building via open windows following on from a hot evening.
 

noodlehair

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I used to work for Building Control in Scotland. Something like this happening is sickening. They're questioning the cladding for example. So if a Building Warrant Application was made for re-cladding a tower, the Building Control officer would check the specification to make sure that the cladding complied, fire stops were being installed in the correct places etc. Once they were happy with the info. provided they would grant a warrant. That meant that the work could commence on site. When the work was complete the building control officer would then grant a completion certificate if he was satisfied with the work. Before doing so they had to make "reasonable enquiry" this could be a combination of site visits, photographs, certificates etc. The problem is that the Building Control Officer can't reasonably inspect every detail, because they have dozens of jobs to look at. The responsibility is sort of passed to the person applying for Completion - they are saying that it complies with the Warrant when they do that. Its just up to the Building Control Officer to accept that or not. So for fire stops behind the cladding for example. There's no way a Building Control officer would see them all. The site agent/supervisor maybe check a few but again, I can't see him having time to check them all. So who are these important details left to. Maybe a sub-contractor, maybe just the operatives themselves. They're saying the cladding installed complied with fire regs. But how do we know what was used was actually what was specified? What if they specified a suitable material but used something cheaper on site?That might get past the Building Control officer if he just done a visual inspection. Its frightening, it's really sad. Building Control wasn't for me in the end. I was a control freak over it, I couldn't check every screw and nail that was on site but I worried and felt like I wanted to. So, I got out. I'm just thinking out loud here over how on Earth this could happen, because it's horrific. It looks to me like there is not just one thing gone wrong, like 1 fire stop not in position. This looks like a multitude of failings to me. The poor people.
It's what I do for a job now and everything you say is exactly right...but there's no end of potential problems with things like this.

We will receive details and specifications, but then often the contractors will start carrying out the work on site before we've even had a chance to check the details...sometimes before we even receive the details. There is nothing technically to say a person can't start work before being issued with a warrant/approval. It just states it is "at their own risk". Sometimes the work has already been done and we find out afterwards.

Then when you're checking things on site it is impossible to check every detail...you'd have to be there all day. So generally you make a judgement on what you do see, and to an extent on whether the people doing it seem like idiots or not.

The Building Regulations is written on that basis in that when the work is signed off, it specifies that "as far as can be reasonably ascertained" it complies with regulations. If contractors have done things not in accordance with approved designs or what was specified to them, generally the comeback is on them but it's a very difficult thing to prove one way or another.

It can be wrong for all kinds of reasons. Even if we do receive and approve designs, the contractor might then not follow them, or they might use the correct materials and products but not install them correctly. I've seen some astonishingly stupid things and I've not been doing the job that long. Contractors/builders (well, the useless ones), seem to have a really poor understanding of a lot of things. For example, what a Fire Barrier is and why what they've done means it wont work.

On top of that with work like this you have the Fire Brigade but they generally are in the same situation. They approve the design under their own regulations, and they might carry out a visual inspection. They aren't there to see that every single tiny thing is put in place correctly. if they were they'd have no one left to fight fires.

Someone doing a periodic Fire Risk assessment also isn't going to be able to tell whether cladding for example is installed correctly. At best they can ask for the Building Regulations certificate and then it just comes back to the above.

Then on top of that you're relying on people not to tamper with important parts of the design after the work is carried out. For example in shopping centres it's a constant menace where people will wedge fire doors open by putting things against them, or stack things in places that block primary fire escape routes. Place flammable materials in places they really shouldn't be, etc. Again someone carrying out an assessment might pick up on some of this and ask that it's put right, but then two weeks later 9 times out of 10 it's back how it was before again.

Generally it's very easy to say "this is what went wrong" with a degree of accuracy quite quickly, but then finding out why it was allowed to go wrong is a lot more difficult. Bad contractors are a nightmare as you just don't know. A lot of Councils and Building Control bodies also struggle to employ fully qualified, experienced surveyors, as there just aren't enough of them...so you can get someone overseeing and inspecting work on a scale they aren't experienced or knowledgeable enough to deal with.

The guidelines issued by the Fire Brigade in case of a fire in a tower block or similar building, are based on the building being fully compliant. Even with all the difficulties above there's only a small handful of cases where this has failed and cost or endangered lives, and nothing on a scale with what's happened here anytime recently I don't think...not in this country anyway.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Bit of a random thought but the reaction of Londoners to this has been amazing. Huge sums of money and supplies raised over a very short period of time. Does anyone think that all the shit they've had to endure in the recent past has enhanced the sense of community in London? Or is that just wishful thinking?
 

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Guardian said:
Two workers with the charity Muslim Aid were delivering donations collected from members of the Al-Manaar mosque in Acklam Road.

“We’re also trying to arrange short-term housing and financial assistance,” said Ahmad Teladia. “We’ve got too much stuff, now the best thing for people to give is money.”

His colleague Nosheena Javaid said there were a lot of Muslim residents of Grenfell Tower. “Muslims are fasting because of Ramadan, but we are trying to reassure people from Grenfell Tower that it’s okay for them not to fast in the circumstances, they will get exemptions from their imam.

“We may do iftar [the meal that breaks the fast] on the streets this evening for those have lost or can’t get to their homes,” she added.
 

Noc-Z

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It's what I do for a job now and everything you say is exactly right...but there's no end of potential problems with things like this.

We will receive details and specifications, but then often the contractors will start carrying out the work on site before we've even had a chance to check the details...sometimes before we even receive the details. There is nothing technically to say a person can't start work before being issued with a warrant/approval. It just states it is "at their own risk". Sometimes the work has already been done and we find out afterwards.

Then when you're checking things on site it is impossible to check every detail...you'd have to be there all day. So generally you make a judgement on what you do see, and to an extent on whether the people doing it seem like idiots or not.

The Building Regulations is written on that basis in that when the work is signed off, it specifies that "as far as can be reasonably ascertained" it complies with regulations. If contractors have done things not in accordance with approved designs or what was specified to them, generally the comeback is on them but it's a very difficult thing to prove one way or another.

It can be wrong for all kinds of reasons. Even if we do receive and approve designs, the contractor might then not follow them, or they might use the correct materials and products but not install them correctly. I've seen some astonishingly stupid things and I've not been doing the job that long. Contractors/builders (well, the useless ones), seem to have a really poor understanding of a lot of things. For example, what a Fire Barrier is and why what they've done means it wont work.

On top of that with work like this you have the Fire Brigade but they generally are in the same situation. They approve the design under their own regulations, and they might carry out a visual inspection. They aren't there to see that every single tiny thing is put in place correctly. if they were they'd have no one left to fight fires.

Someone doing a periodic Fire Risk assessment also isn't going to be able to tell whether cladding for example is installed correctly. At best they can ask for the Building Regulations certificate and then it just comes back to the above.

Then on top of that you're relying on people not to tamper with important parts of the design after the work is carried out. For example in shopping centres it's a constant menace where people will wedge fire doors open by putting things against them, or stack things in places that block primary fire escape routes. Place flammable materials in places they really shouldn't be, etc. Again someone carrying out an assessment might pick up on some of this and ask that it's put right, but then two weeks later 9 times out of 10 it's back how it was before again.

Generally it's very easy to say "this is what went wrong" with a degree of accuracy quite quickly, but then finding out why it was allowed to go wrong is a lot more difficult. Bad contractors are a nightmare as you just don't know. A lot of Councils and Building Control bodies also struggle to employ fully qualified, experienced surveyors, as there just aren't enough of them...so you can get someone overseeing and inspecting work on a scale they aren't experienced or knowledgeable enough to deal with.

The guidelines issued by the Fire Brigade in case of a fire in a tower block or similar building, are based on the building being fully compliant. Even with all the difficulties above there's only a small handful of cases where this has failed and cost or endangered lives, and nothing on a scale with what's happened here anytime recently I don't think...not in this country anyway.
Yes I can relate to everything you've said. One of the worst for me was simple loft conversions, done without permission then requiring retrospective consent - usually when a house sale comes around. You'd find no fire doors, stairs that had no headroom or were too steep etc. But this incident is obviously on a much bigger scale than anything like that. The relationship between what is approved and what actually happens on site is where I see some of the biggest problems occurring. I done it for 7 years but have been out of it for around 5 years now.
 

noodlehair

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Yes I can relate to everything you've said. One of the worst for me was simple loft conversions, done without permission then requiring retrospective consent - usually when a house sale comes around. You'd find no fire doors, stairs that had no headroom or were too steep etc. But this incident is obviously on a much bigger scale than anything like that. The relationship between what is approved and what actually happens on site is where I see some of the biggest problems occurring. I done it for 7 years but have been out of it for around 5 years now.
Yep exactly the same here with the lofts. Then some of them will give you grief because you are "costing them the sale of their house"...erm, no. You having a loft conversion done on the cheap, doing a piss poor job of it, and then claiming you only use it for storage whilst advertising it on right move as a "4th bedroom" is what's costing you the sale of your house.

The other week I had a builder who didn't want to install a heat detector because "the smoke from the kitchen would keep setting it off"...even when I explained the difference between a heat detector and a smoke detector he still didn't understand. People are relying on this person to build buildings correctly and safely. He'd probably struggle to build a toy wall out of lego.

This is what site managers, surveyors, fire officials, architects, other builders etc. are up against at times. It's not always greed, sometimes it's just human error or inadequacy.
 

jackofalltrades

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Bit of a random thought but the reaction of Londoners to this has been amazing. Huge sums of money and supplies raised over a very short period of time. Does anyone think that all the shit they've had to endure in the recent past has enhanced the sense of community in London? Or is that just wishful thinking?
Probably, but I imagine it's transitory.
 

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Fifteen/sixteen hours later and smaller fires are still re-igniting. The scale is almost unbelievable.
 

Pablo76

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Horrendous. I can't begin to imagine.

Around 600 people thought to live there, mostly families with upto 3 kids.

Estimated figures suggesting 60 rescued, 50 hospitalized. 12 dead. The other 480...

I just..hope I'm wrong.