Griezmann - Barcelona player

Ooge_

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28/29 years old in the 19/20 season. 120 million. Hmm. Better win the UCL this seaso...Hi! Valverde says "I don't feel obliged to win the UCL".
Barca has a lot of pressure to win the UCL as long as they have Messi in good shape. Same with Juve and Ronaldo. Both clubs take high risks to increase their short-term chances of success.
 

giorno

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They fell to pieces after anfield in a way that just didn't happen before

And we're playing them at home at the beginning of march. Yeah, let's them sign neymar too and then their season goes the same way as with their last "fantastic 4" @carvajal
 

Ooge_

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They fell to pieces after anfield in a way that just didn't happen before
@carvajal
And they also fell apart a year before. Nor Griezmann, Neymar or Messi are leaders or team players. The are all individualist. Where are the leaders at Barca? Real has the same problem.
 

MVBDX

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They fell to pieces after anfield in a way that just didn't happen before
The meltdown against Roma was definitely in the same level, with Pool one could say that they were finalists in the previous year, but Roma? Haven't been on the map for so long.

And they also fell apart a year before. Nor Griezmann, Neymar or Messi are leaders or team players. The are all individualist. Where are the leaders at Barca? Real has the same problem.
Actually having leaders in every line was why we won back to back to back CLs, the problem was that we didn't spend a penny for a couple of years, squad got older, Ronaldo got sold, but no replacements were added, until this summer. We did lack quality, not leaders.
 
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Zehner

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And they also fell apart a year before. Nor Griezmann, Neymar or Messi are leaders or team players. The are all individualist. Where are the leaders at Barca? Real has the same problem.
Where were the leaders when they had the best team in history? You could argue Puyol but that's that. Sure, a real leader would help but by far their biggest problem is that they're coached by someone without a vision. They've got no real identity. Sure, they play a little bit possession football, but that doesn't come from tactical instructions but the DNA of the players respectively the fact that the core of the team still played under Guardiola/Villanova. Valverde let's everyone roam free and do their thing.
 

giorno

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And they also fell apart a year before. Nor Griezmann, Neymar or Messi are leaders or team players. The are all individualist. Where are the leaders at Barca? Real has the same problem.
The meltdown against Roma was definitely in the same level, with Pool one could say that they were finalists in the previous year, but Roma? Haven't been on the map for so long.
I said after. I'm not talking about those games, i'm talking about how their subsequent performances were affected by those games.
 

MVBDX

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I said after. I'm not talking about those games, i'm talking about how their subsequent performances were affected by those games.
I see, even so they fecked their invincible league campaign in the last match day, some time after the Roma game. It was quite a meltdown.
 

MrEleson

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Where were the leaders when they had the best team in history? You could argue Puyol but that's that.
Puyol, Xavi, Alves, Abidal not to mention a coach who is better at getting the best out of the unit rather than relying on individual quality: Pep.
 

11101

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Another one i think is going to fail there. Barcelona are going out buying all the best individuals but hard to see how they all fit into a team. The way they are spending this summer makes you wonder if they know something about Messi's future that's not public yet.
 

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Puyol, Xavi, Alves, Abidal not to mention a coach who is better at getting the best out of the unit rather than relying on individual quality: Pep.
If those players are leaders, then Pique, Busquets, Vidal, Messi, Griezmann, Suarez, Ter Stegen, Rakitic and Alba are as well. The only player who's a significantly better leader than those is Puyol.

That aside, you seem to agree that Valverde doesn't get the best out of them collectively. IMO, Barca's transfer efforts this season shouldn't have been on Griezmann and Neymar but on Ten Haag, Pocchetino, Sarri or Tuchel. The squads already the best in the world.
 

Cait Sith

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None of Ten Haag, Poch, Sarri or Tuchel are better coaches than Valverde objectively. In fact 2 of the 4 bottled comfortable leads in worse fashion against worse teams than Klopp's Liverpool in the same CL season. Yet we are, hearing about wonder tactician Tuchel who somehow managed to concede 3 on home soil against United's U16 team with a 2 away goal lead as well as the French Cup final against some farmer team but here we are, no one cares or holds it against him a few months later. "Barca should get Tuchel."

One coach is expected to win the treble with a ludicrous fanbase of which 80 % started watching football from 2008 onwards, the others have no expectations at all and if they do a bit better than expected they get hyped to heavens.

There is only Pep and Klopp in their own tiers right now, the rest is arbitrary. And even those 2 have 1 CL win in the past 8 years between them. But somehow Valverde must win the CL with a declining Barca with no more Xavi, Iniesta, Alves just because they have 32 year old Messi upfront.
 

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The number that is doing the rounds is that Barca are 800m sterling in the deep.
Fantastic. Throwing money around like a drunken millionaire. Money which isn't even theirs. I'm sure theyll get away with it too
 

RobinLFC

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Fantastic. Throwing money around like a drunken millionaire. Money which isn't even theirs. I'm sure theyll get away with it too
Get away with what exactly?
 

RobinLFC

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Being in a huge debt.
Didn't know that being in debt was a criminal offence? A quick Google search gives you an article from The Guardian that mentions a debt in excess of €500m for United.
 

Zehner

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None of Ten Haag, Poch, Sarri or Tuchel are better coaches than Valverde objectively. In fact 2 of the 4 bottled comfortable leads in worse fashion against worse teams than Klopp's Liverpool in the same CL season. Yet we are, hearing about wonder tactician Tuchel who somehow managed to concede 3 on home soil against United's U16 team with a 2 away goal lead as well as the French Cup final against some farmer team but here we are, no one cares or holds it against him a few months later. "Barca should get Tuchel."

One coach is expected to win the treble with a ludicrous fanbase of which 80 % started watching football from 2008 onwards, the others have no expectations at all and if they do a bit better than expected they get hyped to heavens.

There is only Pep and Klopp in their own tiers right now, the rest is arbitrary. And even those 2 have 1 CL win in the past 8 years between them. But somehow Valverde must win the CL with a declining Barca with no more Xavi, Iniesta, Alves just because they have 32 year old Messi upfront.
Disagree. The mentioned are comfortably better coaches than Valverde and on top of that their philosophies are also in line with Barcelona's very own brand of football. On the contrary, I don't even know what Valverde's philosophy is supposed to be.

There isn't just black and white. You sound as if there are Klopp and Guardiola and all the rest is the same. I find it irritating how one can't recognize that those coaches are superior by watching how their teams play football. Honestly, I think this mindset is the reason why United is where it is. A few years ago, you would've said the same things ypu say about Tuchel about Klopp while the benchmark would've been Mourinho and Guardiola. Don't you think it's time too think outside the box a little bit?
 

Zehner

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Didn't know that being in debt was a criminal offence? A quick Google search gives you an article from The Guardian that mentions a debt in excess of €500m for United.
That's one of the most basic things in economics and yet so many fail to understand it. Lending money is a crucial part of managing a business successfully. If you really want to know if a club is financially healthy or not you need to take a look at the relation between loan capitel and equity. I've been hearing for decades how unhealthy and 'hopelessly im debt' the Spanish clubs are and they are still the biggest spending clubs in the world not owmed by a sheikh right now.
 

RobinLFC

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That's one of the most basic things in economics and yet so many fail to understand it. Lending money is a crucial part of managing a business successfully. If you really want to know if a club is financially healthy or not you need to take a look at the relation between loan capitel and equity. I've been hearing for decades how unhealthy and 'hopelessly im debt' the Spanish clubs are and they are still the biggest spending clubs in the world not owmed by a sheikh right now.
I don't know anything about the financial health of Real and Barcelona but isn't at least one of them a bit backed up by the state or state-owned banks? At least I think I read that somewhere, and that could be some shady stuff if true.

Definitely agree though that you need to look at the whole financial picture in order to assess how financially healthy a football club is - having a (seemingly) enormous debt means nothing if it's in line with the bigger picture.
 

Cait Sith

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Disagree. The mentioned are comfortably better coaches than Valverde and on top of that their philosophies are also in line with Barcelona's very own brand of football. On the contrary, I don't even know what Valverde's philosophy is supposed to be.

There isn't just black and white. You sound as if there are Klopp and Guardiola and all the rest is the same. I find it irritating how one can't recognize that those coaches are superior by watching how their teams play football. Honestly, I think this mindset is the reason why United is where it is. A few years ago, you would've said the same things ypu say about Tuchel about Klopp while the benchmark would've been Mourinho and Guardiola. Don't you think it's time too think outside the box a little bit?
Funny. Before he took the Barca job, Valverde had a higher reputation than Pochettino who got sacked by Espanyol for having them in the relegation zone while Valverde was making top 4 with a team consisting of young local Basque players while playing offensive football.

And as for "philosophy":




Funny how this works.
 

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Chesterlestreet

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Debt is one thing, terms quite another.

Both Barca and Real seem to enjoy considerable goodwill from whoever provide them with both loans and "loans".

Still, the most recent story is a bit different, in that it has been suggested that their debt situation isn't something they're properly prepared to handle: the idea was to reduce the debt, but they've ended up doing the reverse - owing something like 500m in "net debt", which is 300m more than where they should've been according to the (presumably sound/sustainable) business plan they had in place.

Dunno, though - I'd be very surprised if they find themselves in genuine trouble. Similarly, people have predicted Real going into administration several times, based on a seemingly unsustainable level of spending - but they always seem to stay afloat.
 

Schneckerl

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Funny. Before he took the Barca job, Valverde had a higher reputation than Pochettino who got sacked by Espanyol for having them in the relegation zone while Valverde was making top 4 with a team consisting of young local Basque players while playing offensive football.
Yeah and it changed because of what the managers did in recent years. How is it funny?
 

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They fell to pieces after anfield in a way that just didn't happen before

And we're playing them at home at the beginning of march. Yeah, let's them sign neymar too and then their season goes the same way as with their last "fantastic 4" @carvajal
In 1vs1 they beat us(right now,with all the questions over Jovic,Vini,Our midfield,Rodrygo,Asensio) and they will continue to be equally efficient in la liga.
I find Neymar very complicated. They have to do something with Dembele and Coutinho.
I do not see them playing with 4 and I do not see Suarez on the bench in a big game.
They seem like signings of a president in problems
 

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Didn't know that being in debt was a criminal offence? A quick Google search gives you an article from The Guardian that mentions a debt in excess of €500m for United.
Did I say it's a criminal offence?
 

RobinLFC

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Did I say it's a criminal offence?
“They’ll get away with it” kinda implies that you thought they should be punished for taking out a loan.
 

Cait Sith

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Yeah and it changed because of what the managers did in recent years. How is it funny?
So all of a sudden a coach since almost 2 decades who was praised repeatedly by Cruyff himself over the years for his style of play, after 2 seasons at Barcelona, has abandoned his style of play. Just like that. The core of players he has inherited, bunch of slow 30+ year olds like Pique, Rakitic, Busquets, Messi, Suarez, players that aren't only in their last years as pro footballers but have already won everything repeatedly and can't bring the last 5 % of effort needed in tough CL away games, that has nothing to do with it. It's just Valverde who has no style.

Meanwhile ten Hag, who started coaching pro teams like 3 years ago, suddenly is a better coach because of 2 results against Real Madrid and Juventus in the CL. Amazing how all this football logic works. Simply amazing.
 

Zehner

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Funny. Before he took the Barca job, Valverde had a higher reputation than Pochettino who got sacked by Espanyol for having them in the relegation zone while Valverde was making top 4 with a team consisting of young local Basque players while playing offensive football.

And as for "philosophy":




Funny how this works.
Well, that's 7 years ago and the coach with whom he's put into the same bracket by Cruyff is a certain Rijkaard who hasn't really impressed in the last 12 years and is as far away from coaching elite clubs as it gets ;)

Valverde is more of a people manager than a coach with a tactical vision. He says that himself. I mean, he said that football is a players game and that his footballers can read the game better than he can, so he understands his job more as the task to give players information with which they can find solutions themselves. That's almost as much of a contrast to Pep as you can have since in his teams everybody must move in tge area he's supposed to play in, at least until the ball is im the final third.

Thing is, Valverde's approach doesn't really work out. It's his job to elevate his squad in a way that it becomes more than the sum of it's parts but that's obviously not the case. That team is almost as individualistic as it gets.
 

MVBDX

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Valverede has done the job in the league, though the competitors' poor form has helped as well, and his CL form -though definitely not good enough- hasn't been much worse than Pep, who has lost against the likes of Monaco and Spurs with the most expensive squad ever assembled. So CL wise they're in about the same tier if we're going by recent years (not a decade ago), and league wise he has won it anyway so a couple of points here and there wouldn't have had any added value.
 

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“They’ll get away with it” kinda implies that you thought they should be punished for taking out a loan.
No. It implies they'll get away with a huge debt they can't handle in the sense they probably won't have any trouble.
 

Cait Sith

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Well, that's 7 years ago and the coach with whom he's put into the same bracket by Cruyff is a certain Rijkaard who hasn't really impressed in the last 12 years and is as far away from coaching elite clubs as it gets ;)

Valverde is more of a people manager than a coach with a tactical vision. He says that himself. I mean, he said that football is a players game and that his footballers can read the game better than he can, so he understands his job more as the task to give players information with which they can find solutions themselves. That's almost as much of a contrast to Pep as you can have since in his teams everybody must move in tge area he's supposed to play in, at least until the ball is im the final third.

Thing is, Valverde's approach doesn't really work out. It's his job to elevate his squad in a way that it becomes more than the sum of it's parts but that's obviously not the case. That team is almost as individualistic as it gets.
It doesn't work out if you value CL above everything. Other than that: 90 % win or draw rate and consecutive league titles with a post Xavi-Iniesta-Alves Barca. In hindsight people can say "yeah, no one cares about La Liga". But the summer Neymar moved on and Real Madrid had won back-to-back CL titles and beat Barca in the Spanish Super Cup, people thought the club was finished and Madrid was going to dominate for years to come. Then Barca went on a 37 game unbeaten streak in the league.

Here is the main problem: https://www.marca.com/en/football/barcelona/2019/05/27/5cec34d522601d75608b4584.html
 

RobinLFC

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No. It implies they'll get away with a huge debt they can't handle in the sense they probably won't have any trouble.
If they can’t handle it, they won’t get away with it. And either way you have no clue whether they can or can’t.
 

giorno

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In 1vs1 they beat us(right now,with all the questions over Jovic,Vini,Our midfield,Rodrygo,Asensio) and they will continue to be equally efficient in la liga.
I find Neymar very complicated. They have to do something with Dembele and Coutinho.
I do not see them playing with 4 and I do not see Suarez on the bench in a big game.
They seem like signings of a president in problems
I want them to have their fantastic four and giving us a pasillo at the bernabeu. Again :drool:
 

giorno

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Valverde had a very clear identity and style of play before he went to barcelona actually. In barcelona that style of play simply wasn't possible because they're too old, slow and not mobile enough, so he adapted. It's true they're a more individualistic team than they used to be, but that change had already began after Guardiola left with the decline of Xavi and the signing of Neymar and Suarez

Rather, it's his inability to affect them mentally that's the main issue
 

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If they can’t handle it, they won’t get away with it. And either way you have no clue whether they can or can’t.
Wooosh...
For some reason you're picking up a fight out of one innocent post. Congrats.
 

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I want them to have their fantastic four and giving us a pasillo at the bernabeu. Again :drool:
he will have the 17: Amunike, Bogarde, Petit, Christanval, Mendieta, Van Bommel, Giovani dos Santos, Pedro, Song, Munir, Alcácer y Murillo :lol::lol: Nothing can go wrong