[amsoUG]

Agreed, he can drive forward in that left channel and give us an overload on that side, which is what led to the goal. There were multiple occasions when doing so gave us a good position. I’d imagine it would work even better if we had a left forward who was in better form than Martial, as it felt like it was only Maguire and Shaw actually involved, with Martial acting as a decoy.

This was the main issue - they should have been releasing the ball quicker and allow the ball to move around quicker instead of crowding an already crowded attack. I would rather Maguire releases the ball sooner - than him trying to dribble the ball for the camera in a very see-me manner.

If the better dribblers on the pitch are choosing to pass and move, what business do defenders have trying to dribble the ball in a way that drags the attack? Not pleased at all! It has now become overlap and cross into the box at every opportunity.

 

[elnorte]

Interesting hearing Gary's thoughts this evening. Basically saying him and Lindelof are incompatible.

 

[Foxbatt]

This was the main issue - they should have been realising the ball quicker and allow the ball to move around quicker instead of crowding an already crowded attack. I would rather Maguire releases the ball sooner - than him trying to dribble the ball for the camera in a very see-me manner.

If the better dribblers on the pitch are choosing to pass and move, what business do defenders have trying to dribble the ball in a way that drags the attack? Not pleased at all! It has now become overlap and cross into the box at every opportunity.

This is the point that a lot of people do not think about. Crowding and already crowded box. The sooner and the quicker we move the ball and our own players the better it will be. People criticize DVB but he is doing right what should be done. Pass and move. What happens is that he passes and moves our players do not know how to pass and move.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Interesting hearing Gary's thoughts this evening. Basically saying him and Lindelof are incompatible.

Gary says Lindelof's main problem is that he is being paired with somebody immobile like Maguire who has a problem when someone runs at him one on one and struggles when ball is played behind him. And Maguire's main problem is he is being paired with someone not strong enough, not quick enough and someone who can cover him.
He also says Maguire will not be thrown out because he cost feckin 80M.

 

[devilish]

Interesting hearing Gary's thoughts this evening. Basically saying him and Lindelof are incompatible.

He basically said that they would look good if played alongside prime Rio or Van Dijk. I bet even your good self would look half decent if played alongside one of those two.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Look at the size of him. It should take a lot more to knock him than it did. If he wanted to stay on his feet he could have IMO.

Doesn't matter how big you are when you get your heels clipped

 

[SadlerMUFC]

Interesting hearing Gary's thoughts this evening. Basically saying him and Lindelof are incompatible.

It's true though. Their abilities don't compliment each other. I think Lindelof is a good 3rd or 4th choice to have play with Maguire, but their attributes are too similar to be a preferred pairing. Hell, I'd rather see Maguire partnered with Jones than Lindelof. Obviously Lindelof is a better player than Jones, but Jones would probably make a better partner. Then again, it's Jones I'm talking about here so maybe not

 

[Red_toad]

Interesting hearing Gary's thoughts this evening. Basically saying him and Lindelof are incompatible.

Yes they both need to occupy the right side of defence to play at their best. Harry is better on the ball and better in the air, neither have good acceleration, neither (thus far) while at United have shown they have a warrior mentality. We’ve been linked to a select few left sided defenders so far, but that’s what we really need, someone with a good turn of pace who excels on the left. Lindelof and Harry can fight it out for the right sided berth. Torres and Botman should both be considered as options.

 

[Cassidy]

Maguire is miles better than Smalling. Sorry but no one can say with a straight face it’s even close.

Hes miles better on the ball yes. Not sure about the defending part. Smalling had some excellent seasons defensively for us and very good at Roma too

Maguire is a good player. Just dont think he is miles better than Smalling

 

[LoneStar]

For all their supposed ball playing ability, he at least tried to force the issue and drove forward (although he can do better with the end product). He was certainly better in doing that than some of our midfielders and forwards. And almost got us 3 points in the end, that was a really good header.

I have rarely seen Lindelof do that, let alone pick out passes from the back to our forwards (remember those sweet passes from Blind?). He is clearly the CB we need to upgrade on. Defence is a partnership after all, and think a better CB would elevate Maguire's level too.

He does need to stop playing opponents onside though. Also nearly every corner we get, he either fouls someone or is offside. Really needs to work on that.

 

[Jonno]

The fact of the matter is that Pawson let the entire situation play out without blowing his whistle (which is weird if he already decided on-pitch that it was a foul, why wouldn't he blow?), so whether the goal would have counted or not would've hinged on whether Jon Moss, the guy who didn't recommend their goal be disallowed and recommended to overrule our penalty, deemed this instance a clear and obvious error. Chances are he wouldn't have made Pawson go to the monitor and so the goal would've stood. The only reliable way for Pawson to say that it wouldn't have counted would've been if he'd actually blown his whistle and not allowed the shot to be taken, which he didn't.

The fact you think there's an agenda today and are acting like his lawyer tells me where the agenda is, you show me where he played well today, you can't because he didn't, he shows no leadership at the back, commands nothing, can't deal with one on ones or the ball in behind so resorts to falling over and praying for a foul, but hey he played ok as a left inside forward for 20 minutes in the first half if that's your angle. Look mate, if you can't see him and Lindelof will keep us as nothing more than also rans while Rashford, Bruno, McTominay and whoever else is this weeks lamb to the slaughter, then I can't help you, but I'm pretty sure you go back 30 plus years like me so I'm surprised you can't see what a wet, uninspiring pair of CB's we have, even Neville can and he can't usually see past his nationalist bias.

Devil May Care - Where have I said that the pair of CB's are ideal? I don't think it is. I think we need another world class CB to go with Maguire. I've thought that since the day we signed Maguire, before he had a kick. Even at Leicester he had Evans who would walk into our team.

Anyway, back to the WBA Anustart89 - Maguire said in the post-match conference that the referee said he would have blown for a foul had he scored? How isn't that enough for you? Are you literally accusing our captain of lying so that Man United fans on a fans forum can't slate him for being illegally fouled when defending? If he's lying, why hasn't the referee, the FA, the opposition players come out and challenged the lie he said? Nobody questioned it because its obviously true. He got fouled. It looked like a foul and it was a foul. He shouldn't have dallied on the ball, but he was fouled. Once again, tell me where Maguire was "awful" in that game. I've got all day. I feel like sensible Man United fans have to take it in shifts to respond to knee-jerkers every time we drop points. I wonder if City fans were reacting like this just a few weeks ago when they got battered by Leicester and then also drew 1-1 to bottom of the league West Brom? It's not a national disaster when we draw a game. It happens in football FFS, get over it and move on to the next game. There doesn't have to be days of witch-hunting. We're not losing every week like some teams are.

Maguire has improved our defence. We'd have finished 5th last season if it wasn't for the defensive improvements of Maguire. If we didn't have him this season, we'd be scrapping in Liverpool's position now. He's marshalled us through lots of narrow wins in that run of good form we had where we stormed to the top of the league.

Our defence has issues, DDG will never come for a ball in the air, leaving our 2 CB's exposed. Lindelof is poor in the air, and got bullied for their goal (FWIW I thought it was a foul), Maguire is slow, Shaw can be dragged completely out of position at LB in the latter stages of games. They are our weaknesses. That doesn't require Maguire to be dropped, Shaw to be dropped, etc.

We need a world class, modern goalkeeper that can come out and dominate the box. We need a world class, quick CB next to Maguire. We need a world class, DM in front of our defence.

Then, we're set.

Slating Maguire when he's literally improved us since he signed, contributed largely to securing CL football, is just shoddy knee-jerk posting. I'd understand if we were 6th but we're 2nd.

The reasons we're not top is not because of Maguire. The reason is because DDG, Lindelof, Fred, McTomminay, Martial, Greenwood, do not come close to waking into the City team. You put Maguire into City's team instead of Stones and he keeps clean sheets every week.

 

[BR7]

Devil May Care - Where have I said that the pair of CB's are ideal? I don't think it is. I think we need another world class CB to go with Maguire. I've thought that since the day we signed Maguire, before he had a kick. Even at Leicester he had Evans who would walk into our team.

Anyway, back to the WBA Anustart89 - Maguire said in the post-match conference that the referee said he would have blown for a foul had he scored? How isn't that enough for you? Are you literally accusing our captain of lying so that Man United fans on a fans forum can't slate him for being illegally fouled when defending? If he's lying, why hasn't the referee, the FA, the opposition players come out and challenged the lie he said? Nobody questioned it because its obviously true. He got fouled. It looked like a foul and it was a foul. He shouldn't have dallied on the ball, but he was fouled. Once again, tell me where Maguire was "awful" in that game. I've got all day. I feel like sensible Man United fans have to take it in shifts to respond to knee-jerkers every time we drop points. I wonder if City fans were reacting like this just a few weeks ago when they got battered by Leicester and then also drew 1-1 to bottom of the league West Brom? It's not a national disaster when we draw a game. It happens in football FFS, get over it and move on to the next game. There doesn't have to be days of witch-hunting. We're not losing every week like some teams are.

Maguire has improved our defence. We'd have finished 5th last season if it wasn't for the defensive improvements of Maguire. If we didn't have him this season, we'd be scrapping in Liverpool's position now. He's marshalled us through lots of narrow wins in that run of good form we had where we stormed to the top of the league.

Our defence has issues, DDG will never come for a ball in the air, leaving our 2 CB's exposed. Lindelof is poor in the air, and got bullied for their goal (FWIW I thought it was a foul), Maguire is slow, Shaw can be dragged completely out of position at LB in the latter stages of games. They are our weaknesses. That doesn't require Maguire to be dropped, Shaw to be dropped, etc.

We need a world class, modern goalkeeper that can come out and dominate the box. We need a world class, quick CB next to Maguire. We need a world class, DM in front of our defence.

Then, we're set.

Slating Maguire when he's literally improved us since he signed, contributed largely to securing CL football, is just shoddy knee-jerk posting. I'd understand if we were 6th but we're 2nd.

The reasons we're not top is not because of Maguire. The reason is because DDG, Lindelof, Fred, McTomminay, Martial, Greenwood, do not come close to waking into the City team. You put Maguire into City's team instead of Stones and he keeps clean sheets every week.

Man I agreed with everything until you kicked mason. What’s that all about? But yeah agree, Maguire is the actual answer we just need to find his partner. If only we had a young Rio

 

[Cassidy]

Devil May Care - Where have I said that the pair of CB's are ideal? I don't think it is. I think we need another world class CB to go with Maguire. I've thought that since the day we signed Maguire, before he had a kick. Even at Leicester he had Evans who would walk into our team.

Anyway, back to the WBA Anustart89 - Maguire said in the post-match conference that the referee said he would have blown for a foul had he scored? How isn't that enough for you? Are you literally accusing our captain of lying so that Man United fans on a fans forum can't slate him for being illegally fouled when defending? If he's lying, why hasn't the referee, the FA, the opposition players come out and challenged the lie he said? Nobody questioned it because its obviously true. He got fouled. It looked like a foul and it was a foul. He shouldn't have dallied on the ball, but he was fouled. Once again, tell me where Maguire was "awful" in that game. I've got all day. I feel like sensible Man United fans have to take it in shifts to respond to knee-jerkers every time we drop points. I wonder if City fans were reacting like this just a few weeks ago when they got battered by Leicester and then also drew 1-1 to bottom of the league West Brom? It's not a national disaster when we draw a game. It happens in football FFS, get over it and move on to the next game. There doesn't have to be days of witch-hunting. We're not losing every week like some teams are.

Maguire has improved our defence. We'd have finished 5th last season if it wasn't for the defensive improvements of Maguire. If we didn't have him this season, we'd be scrapping in Liverpool's position now. He's marshalled us through lots of narrow wins in that run of good form we had where we stormed to the top of the league.

Our defence has issues, DDG will never come for a ball in the air, leaving our 2 CB's exposed. Lindelof is poor in the air, and got bullied for their goal (FWIW I thought it was a foul), Maguire is slow, Shaw can be dragged completely out of position at LB in the latter stages of games. They are our weaknesses. That doesn't require Maguire to be dropped, Shaw to be dropped, etc.

We need a world class, modern goalkeeper that can come out and dominate the box. We need a world class, quick CB next to Maguire. We need a world class, DM in front of our defence.

Then, we're set.

Slating Maguire when he's literally improved us since he signed, contributed largely to securing CL football, is just shoddy knee-jerk posting. I'd understand if we were 6th but we're 2nd.

The reasons we're not top is not because of Maguire. The reason is because DDG, Lindelof, Fred, McTomminay, Martial, Greenwood, do not come close to waking into the City team. You put Maguire into City's team instead of Stones and he keeps clean sheets every week.

Not sure about this. Maguire has had poor games just as much as some of that lot. Martial being an exception (he's juts been awful) and Greenwood is a kid.
Lindelof was at fault vs WBA for instance Maguire vs Everton (if you take the last 2 games)

 

[Devil may care]

Devil May Care - Where have I said that the pair of CB's are ideal? I don't think it is. I think we need another world class CB to go with Maguire. I've thought that since the day we signed Maguire, before he had a kick. Even at Leicester he had Evans who would walk into our team.

You're up in here defending Maguire so that suggested to me you think he's good enough and you doubled down by essentially blaming everyone but him for our fragility, even a 19 year old forward, yet there's a fact that we are the top scoring team in the PL but have shipped more goals than any team in the top 10 and he's the supposed kingpin of this defense.

You mentioned City and there's no way he'd get in their side over Stones or Laporte, his lack of mobility is a huge issue when you play a high line, the only player we have that would get in their side is Shaw. Basically you seem to feel everyone is dragging him down and that's the only place we strongly disagree, all of the players you listed, bar De Gea and Mason, I agree aren't good enough to take us from just making up the top 4 to actually competing for a title, but to me Maguire is part of the problem rather than part of the solution, he's got too many flaws.

 

[Cassidy]

Is our defence much better than it was under Jose in 17/18?

 

[Hughes35]

I still think our best CB partnership would have been Smalling + Maguire. I do think it was a big error not going in that direction.

Maguire is a good player. There isn't a wealth of quality CB's like there used to be and he's easily one of the better ones around currently.

 

[Tapori]

I still think our best CB partnership would have been Smalling + Maguire. I do think it was a big error not going in that direction.

Maguire is a good player. There isn't a wealth of quality CB's like there used to be and he's easily one of the better ones around currently.

Much merit in this.
The sudden demolition of Smalling as being "miles behind" Maguire is insanely harsh.
Both are good defenders. Maguire is better on the ball. Smalling is better as a defender.
Both are not Elite tier.

 

[A-man]

I still think our best CB partnership would have been Smalling + Maguire. I do think it was a big error not going in that direction.

Maguire is a good player. There isn't a wealth of quality CB's like there used to be and he's easily one of the better ones around currently.

I have watched at least half of Smalling’s matches in Italy. He’s been good in some, but he also has poor matches and imo he is making a lot of mistakes/poor decisions. I don’t think he would be good enough as a starter but a perfect bench player.

Another thing, he has been through many injuries this season and wouldn’t be available very much anyway. Roma have played about 30 games this season. Smalling has started 10 of them.

 

[Jonno]

You're up in here defending Maguire so that suggested to me you think he's good enough and you doubled down by essentially blaming everyone but him for our fragility, even a 19 year old forward, yet there's a fact that we are the top scoring team in the PL but have shipped more goals than any team in the top 10 and he's the supposed kingpin of this defense.

You mentioned City and there's no way he'd get in their side over Stones or Laporte, his lack of mobility is a huge issue when you play a high line, the only player we have that would get in their side is Shaw. Basically you seem to feel everyone is dragging him down and that's the only place we strongly disagree, all of the players you listed, bar De Gea and Mason, I agree aren't good enough to take us from just making up the top 4 to actually competing for a title, but to me Maguire is part of the problem rather than part of the solution, he's got too many flaws.

Hang on, show me where I blamed Greenwood. I didn't blame Greenwood for anything. I simply said at this stage of his career, he doesn't walk into City's strongest 11. Thats not to say I don't think he'll go on to do wonderful things for many years, because I do, I'm a fan. But City are stacked in that area, with players that are peaking right now.

Happy to disagree on Maguire, but I believe Maguire gets in City's team over Stones. I believe he walks into every single team in the league. There's not much between Stones and Maguire, ask Southgate he'll tend to agree. Also lets not forget, Pep tried to sign Maguire the same summer we did - it was well documented. If he didn't sign for us, he'd be playing every week for another top 6 club.

I say the same thing again that you choose to ignore. We overpaid for Maguire, that's not his fault. But he contributed to the overpriced fee. We had the most clean sheets in Europe last season, that helped secure us 3rd place. Without Maguire, playing Smalling/Jones/Rojo/Lindelof/Bailly/Tuanzebe etc in CB every week, we'd have finished about 7th. Without Maguire right now, we'd be about 6th.

I'm still waiting to read why he was "awful" against WBA. He made an error for the shot that DDG saved, and it was later confirmed it was a foul. He still shouldn't have made the mistake. However, other than that, what warrants an awful performance? Did he give away a penalty? Did he get red carded? Was he at fault for 3 goals? That my friend is what I call an awful performance. Lindelof was weak, got bullied, arguably fouled but still bullied off the ball, is that Maguire's fault? Maguire drove the team forward, kept the line high, snuffed out lots of their counters, created genuine chances for us - I don't think he played spectacularly well, or even very well. I just don't get this knee-jerk that he was awful.

A fan saying he played awful rings alarm bells of agendas or wumming .

Pair Maguire with an elite, pacy CB and its fixed. You don't see United just have Rio or Vidic with some budget bang-average CB, nor Bruce or Pallister,

 

[Jonno]

Man I agreed with everything until you kicked mason. What’s that all about? But yeah agree, Maguire is the actual answer we just need to find his partner. If only we had a young Rio

For what it's worth I really like Mason and expect great things from him & we're lucky to have him. I just meant he wouldn't walk into City's team right now as they're stacked with peak players in the wide positions.

 

[romufc]

Is our defence much better than it was under Jose in 17/18?

Are we parking the Airbus like Jose?

 

[Idxomer]

I have watched at least half of Smalling’s matches in Italy. He’s been good in some, but he also has poor matches and imo he is making a lot of mistakes/poor decisions. I don’t think he would be good enough as a starter but a perfect bench player.

Another thing, he has been through many injuries this season and wouldn’t be available very much anyway. Roma have played about 30 games this season. Smalling has started 10 of them.

Agreed. Smalling was very good but he has declined and became more injury-prone in the last year.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

If I had a nickel for every time Maguire's "lack of pace" cost us a goal I'd have about 15 cents...

 

[Devil may care]

Hang on, show me where I blamed Greenwood. I didn't blame Greenwood for anything. I simply said at this stage of his career, he doesn't walk into City's strongest 11. Thats not to say I don't think he'll go on to do wonderful things for many years, because I do, I'm a fan. But City are stacked in that area, with players that are peaking right now.

Happy to disagree on Maguire, but I believe Maguire gets in City's team over Stones. I believe he walks into every single team in the league. There's not much between Stones and Maguire, ask Southgate he'll tend to agree. Also lets not forget, Pep tried to sign Maguire the same summer we did - it was well documented. If he didn't sign for us, he'd be playing every week for another top 6 club.

I say the same thing again that you choose to ignore. We overpaid for Maguire, that's not his fault. But he contributed to the overpriced fee. We had the most clean sheets in Europe last season, that helped secure us 3rd place. Without Maguire, playing Smalling/Jones/Rojo/Lindelof/Bailly/Tuanzebe etc in CB every week, we'd have finished about 7th. Without Maguire right now, we'd be about 6th.

I'm still waiting to read why he was "awful" against WBA. He made an error for the shot that DDG saved, and it was later confirmed it was a foul. He still shouldn't have made the mistake. However, other than that, what warrants an awful performance? Did he give away a penalty? Did he get red carded? Was he at fault for 3 goals? That my friend is what I call an awful performance. Lindelof was weak, got bullied, arguably fouled but still bullied off the ball, is that Maguire's fault? Maguire drove the team forward, kept the line high, snuffed out lots of their counters, created genuine chances for us - I don't think he played spectacularly well, or even very well. I just don't get this knee-jerk that he was awful.

A fan saying he played awful rings alarm bells of agendas or wumming .

Pair Maguire with an elite, pacy CB and its fixed. You don't see United just have Rio or Vidic with some budget bang-average CB, nor Bruce or Pallister,

You listed Greenwood in a bunch of players who are to blame for us not being top, that's why I mentioned that particular thing.

I don't care if Southgate agrees as I don't rate him as an eye for quality, I mean he's still sleeping on Grealish in favour of Mount. As for Pep, how many players has he shelled out big on and dumped a season or so later because he's suddenly realized they weren't up to it? He's in that luxury position where he can just keep replacing whenever it takes his fancy, I think if we traded last summer's CB signings they'd have remained a saloon door at the back on the counter and we'd be neck and neck with them with Diaz partnering Lindelof.

Now my above is a theory, as is the bulk of what you've said as we don't know for sure, I mean we won trophies without Maguire but you're saying he's basically a brilliant signing because we finished 3rd last season, yet ignore that this season we have the worst defensive record in the top 10 with the same partnership, just lumping all the blame on Lindelof. I think Neville nailed it when he said Lindelof is unfairly blamed because he didn't cost £80M so it's never about who should partner him. This "he just needs a fast partner" rhetoric is the same as with Pogba, supposed top drawer international players bought for record fees are meant to elevate those around them, but with the ones we've bought you also need to shell out another £50-60M minimum to cover for their flaws, it's crazy.

As for the West Brom performance, I didn’t say he was awful, I said he was a so-so inside forward for a 20 minute spell but essentially shits his pants when left one on one or chasing the ball over the top, which is a fair assessment of that game, We played a shitty Sam Allardyce team who used a back 9, both Maguire and Lindelof couldn't handle their bang average striker, to me that's a bad sign because this is a team that will be relegated yet our Captain can't take charge of the defense and simply glue himself to their single threat, which would surely have made sense for a supposed leader who knows his partner is shite, but he never takes charge or communicates, that's why I've said for ages now that whoever we sign at CB needs to be able to handle their own shit as Maguire won't help them in that regard, unlike a Van Dijk, Ramos, Thiago Silva etc.....If you think all we need is a fast partner for him then I respect your view but can't agree, I think it's a band aid on a shotgun wound, all the pressure is on the new guy to pick up Maguire's slack and he better be bulletproof as one injury and we are back to square one as apparently all of our other CB's are too trash to partner him, that's not a recipe for success imo.

 

[RUCK4444]

If I had a nickel for every time Maguire's "lack of pace" cost us a goal I'd have about 15 cents...

This is true, it’s so overplayed here.

Most of his ‘errors’ have been positional and not through a lack of pace.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

This is true, it’s so overplayed here.

Most of his ‘errors’ have been positional and not through a lack of pace.

Most of his "errors" are scapegoating by people with agendas. There have been some that he should have done better for (Everton equalizer) but it's almost as though United supporters expect us to go through 90 minutes every game without conceding a scoring chance. And the funny thing is, in those games when we don't allow much in terms of scoring chances our supporters still give him a 5/10 because "he didn't have much to do". No, De Gea didn't have much to do because our defense was that good. I will also say that it doesn't matter who is in our defense, it will never be "fixed" as long as we have a keeper who is depending on our defenders to win 100% of their aerial duals in and around his 6 yard box...

 

[RUCK4444]

Most of his "errors" are scapegoating by people with agendas. There have been some that he should have done better for (Everton equalizer) but it's almost as though United supporters expect us to go through 90 minutes every game without conceding a scoring chance. And the funny thing is, in those games when we don't allow much in terms of scoring chances our supporters still give him a 5/10 because "he didn't have much to do". No, De Gea didn't have much to do because our defense was that good. I will also say that it doesn't matter who is in our defense, it will never be "fixed" as long as we have a keeper who is depending on our defenders to win 100% of their aerial duals in and around his 6 yard box...

Yeah totally agree. I've said multiple times here that he's nowhere near as bad as people like to make out. Every player over the course of a season has a few individual errors, Harry hasn't had many but like you say he's slaughtered most games.

It's one the worst cases of a player being judged purely on his purchase price that I can remember really. It's not like he's even partnered with a regular CB either.

 

[MattofManchester]

He doesn't have to be considered bad to be considered not good enough.

 

[RUCK4444]

He doesn't have to be considered bad to be considered not good enough.

What is good 'enough' though. I mean he's no Maldini but he's fit and available every week (a miracle for us in recent years) pretty solid, good in the air, can play forwards well. It's not like he has howlers and individual errors every week. He's slow-ish but as mentioned in the posts above very few of his errors are usually attributed to this 'weakness' in his game.

This is why I think the price tag is perhaps skewing peoples perception of him. He didn't set the price, it's not fair to judge him on a price tag.

 

[Cassidy]

Are we parking the Airbus like Jose?

At times yes

 

[SadlerMUFC]

He doesn't have to be considered bad to be considered not good enough.

As it stands right now he is by far our best central defender. To improve a team you get rid of the worst players and replace them with better players. You don't start with getting rid of your best. Mind you, we can have 27 year old Vidic and Rio playing central defense for us and our problems won't be solved as long as we have a keeper who stands on his line and depends on his defenders to win 100% of their aerial challenges

 

[Raven]

I think he has to shoulder a lot of the blame for the lack of defensive organisation we've been experiencing. He's our captain and supposedly our main CB, yet we look all over the place in defense so much of the time. What's his style of leadership? Because it doesn't look like it's working.

 

[MattofManchester]

What is good 'enough' though. I mean he's no Maldini but he's fit and available every week (a miracle for us in recent years) pretty solid, good in the air, can play forwards well. It's not like he has howlers and individual errors every week. He's slow-ish but as mentioned in the posts above very few of his errors are usually attributed to this 'weakness' in his game.

This is why I think the price tag is perhaps skewing peoples perception of him. He didn't set the price, it's not fair to judge him on a price tag.

It's just that I personally don't see him as the leading CB for a club that wants to compete for leagues and CLs.
I may be biased, as I didn't particularly rate him at Leicester either, and was shocked that we signed him.

Since then, he hasn't really convinced me that he's the right fit for this club.
For a defender his age, he should be a lot more assured and commanding, but he comes across as just as erratic as the rest of the defence.

Let's not forget that he's part of that defence that has conceded the most goals in the top 8 or so.
Thats not all Lindelof or De Gea or AWB or Shaw's fault. It's all of them.
Regarding his limitations, I always get the feeling he'll be found out in Europe if we played more on the front foot against top teams, and I think he plays a part of why we sit deeper against then in the league as well.

Like I said, I could be wrong, but I just cannot warm to him as a long term first choice CB. I've tried, but I can't.

To me, he reminds me of Fellaini(this is my personal feeling, so let's not go over the top): A good player, but that ill feeling that he's not a good fit for this club and barometer with where we're at currently as a club. Good, but should be doing better.

 

[BR7]

For what it's worth I really like Mason and expect great things from him & we're lucky to have him. I just meant he wouldn't walk into City's team right now as they're stacked with peak players in the wide positions.

Yeah we could end up being really lucky, if mason fulfils that potential, Amad becomes what we hope he can, Marcus, maybe Sancho and then Hugill, McCann and the Hannibal (shoretire abd pelestri) we could be a seriously exciting side in 2-3 years. We have to be patient with these guys but give them their chance and see if they can make that step. Forgetting the whole, now very boring ole in/out, we are potentially in for a very entertaining next few years. And if it happens, they are young enough to terrorise defences for years to come.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

As it stands right now he is by far our best central defender. To improve a team you get rid of the worst players and replace them with better players. You don't start with getting rid of your best. Mind you, we can have 27 year old Vidic and Rio playing central defense for us and our problems won't be solved as long as we have a keeper who stands on his line and depends on his defenders to win 100% of their aerial challenges

Yeah, you have a point.

Maguire, for me, was an upgrade on anyone we had when he arrived.

You could certainly claim that it's a bit "meh" (as they say) to spend a record amount on someone who is an upgrade - but not, as someone said above, miles better than Mike Smalling. Sure - I would agree with that.

But regardless, you don't fix a defence by bringing in an individual player unless that player is Beckenbauer Mk2. And even in that scenario you could probably still do with a keeper who doesn't rely entirely on shot stopping ability.

 

[Jonno]

You listed Greenwood in a bunch of players who are to blame for us not being top, that's why I mentioned that particular thing.

I said.... The reasons we're not top is not because of Maguire. The reason is because DDG, Lindelof, Fred, McTomminay, Martial, Greenwood, do not come close to walking into this City team.

I stand by that. They have stacks of players in Greenwoods position and he doesn't get in that team. That's not a criticism of Greenwood, he's 19 and an exciting young talent. Its a compliment to City, they're streets ahead, and are easily the best team. Last night, they shuffle the pack and Mahrez comes in and scores a worldy. Thats where we aspire to be whether you're Ole in, Ole out Ole shake it all about.

I don't care if Southgate agrees as I don't rate him as an eye for quality, I mean he's still sleeping on Grealish in favour of Mount. As for Pep, how many players has he shelled out big on and dumped a season or so later because he's suddenly realized they weren't up to it? He's in that luxury position where he can just keep replacing whenever it takes his fancy, I think if we traded last summer's CB signings they'd have remained a saloon door at the back on the counter and we'd be neck and neck with them with Diaz partnering Lindelof.

Ok, so you admit that Southgate likes Maguire, Ole likes Maguire, Pep likes Maguire, Jose publicly wanted to sign Maguire... These are all people within footballs elite. So why do you think you know better? Are you in a better position to judge Maguire's ability than Pep Guardiola, the very manager who is steamrolling the PL, based on having a solid defence?

Now my above is a theory, as is the bulk of what you've said as we don't know for sure, I mean we won trophies without Maguire but you're saying he's basically a brilliant signing because we finished 3rd last season, yet ignore that this season we have the worst defensive record in the top 10 with the same partnership, just lumping all the blame on Lindelof. I think Neville nailed it when he said Lindelof is unfairly blamed because he didn't cost £80M so it's never about who should partner him. This "he just needs a fast partner" rhetoric is the same as with Pogba, supposed top drawer international players bought for record fees are meant to elevate those around them, but with the ones we've bought you also need to shell out another £50-60M minimum to cover for their flaws, it's crazy.

On the contrary, Maguire is very much unfairly blamed because he DID cost £80m, because he did have a dodgy holiday in Greece, because he is English. I don't care what Neville says, he chops and changes his opinions every week to fit agendas and talking points on Sky. I can guarantee if he was Man United manager, he'd be starting Maguire every week and trying to find him a suitable partner too.

If Lindelof is unfairly blamed why is his positioning poor most weeks, when simple low crosses come in and he can't clear, he's left wanting 5 yards away from the striker? Why doesn't he win enough headers with our high line in the middle of the pitch? Why does he lose so many 50/50's on the edge of the box causing overloads on our wingbacks, why on top of all of that is he ALSO slow? Why does he also not offer consistent forward passing? Why is almost every pass sideways or backwards? Because you compare that to Maguire, and the only thing similar is the pace issue. We knew Maguire had pace issues when we signed him. He's very good at winning headers, he snuffs out play on the ground, he provides good, forward passing, he drives up the pitch, he scores, he assists, he's often our last line of defence before a shot comes on our goal. The fact he's slow and expensive doesn't matter if you pair him with a suitable partner. We've had slow CB's before. Vidic was slow, once in a blue moon he got slaughtered by a fast striker, it would happen a few times a season. I didn't care, because he is one of the best CB's I've ever seen at our club. He had Rio, who had pace, an engine, he they had two quick fullbacks who could tuck in, they had Carrick who would drop to CB, the likes of Park, Fletcher, Rooney etc that would drop in. Maguire is not as good as Vidic, but he's good enough for us to have a proper title challenge. He'd be in City's starting 11 every week now if Pep had anything to do with it. Which brings me back to my original points, why do 1-2 posters come and bash him when he's done nothing wrong in a 1-1 draw?

As for the West Brom performance, I didn’t say he was awful, I said he was a so-so inside forward for a 20 minute spell but essentially shits his pants when left one on one or chasing the ball over the top, which is a fair assessment of that game, We played a shitty Sam Allardyce team who used a back 9, both Maguire and Lindelof couldn't handle their bang average striker, to me that's a bad sign because this is a team that will be relegated yet our Captain can't take charge of the defense and simply glue himself to their single threat, which would surely have made sense for a supposed leader who knows his partner is shite, but he never takes charge or communicates, that's why I've said for ages now that whoever we sign at CB needs to be able to handle their own shit as Maguire won't help them in that regard, unlike a Van Dijk, Ramos, Thiago Silva etc.....If you think all we need is a fast partner for him then I respect your view but can't agree, I think it's a band aid on a shotgun wound, all the pressure is on the new guy to pick up Maguire's slack and he better be bulletproof as one injury and we are back to square one as apparently all of our other CB's are too trash to partner him, that's not a recipe for success imo.

I didn't say you said he was awful. However what you did, was pick up on a reply I gave to another poster, defending Maguire when that poster said he was awful. You've since translated that into that I think Maguire is the best CB in the country, but I don't. I think he's good enough to continue our re-build around. If we strengthened with a truly world class GK, CB, DM & RW, I think our squad is as good as any in world football. Maguire really isn't the problem. The fact we need to strengthen in at least 4 key areas also isn't Maguire's fault. He's come in and done his bit. I'm not celebrating finishing 3rd, nor being 2nd. I'm simply providing black and white proof that he's helped improve us as a team.

 

[HerbT]

Hang on, show me where I blamed Greenwood. I didn't blame Greenwood for anything. I simply said at this stage of his career, he doesn't walk into City's strongest 11. Thats not to say I don't think he'll go on to do wonderful things for many years, because I do, I'm a fan. But City are stacked in that area, with players that are peaking right now.

Happy to disagree on Maguire, but I believe Maguire gets in City's team over Stones. I believe he walks into every single team in the league. There's not much between Stones and Maguire, ask Southgate he'll tend to agree. Also lets not forget, Pep tried to sign Maguire the same summer we did - it was well documented. If he didn't sign for us, he'd be playing every week for another top 6 club.

I say the same thing again that you choose to ignore. We overpaid for Maguire, that's not his fault. But he contributed to the overpriced fee. We had the most clean sheets in Europe last season, that helped secure us 3rd place. Without Maguire, playing Smalling/Jones/Rojo/Lindelof/Bailly/Tuanzebe etc in CB every week, we'd have finished about 7th. Without Maguire right now, we'd be about 6th.

I'm still waiting to read why he was "awful" against WBA. He made an error for the shot that DDG saved, and it was later confirmed it was a foul. He still shouldn't have made the mistake. However, other than that, what warrants an awful performance? Did he give away a penalty? Did he get red carded? Was he at fault for 3 goals? That my friend is what I call an awful performance. Lindelof was weak, got bullied, arguably fouled but still bullied off the ball, is that Maguire's fault? Maguire drove the team forward, kept the line high, snuffed out lots of their counters, created genuine chances for us - I don't think he played spectacularly well, or even very well. I just don't get this knee-jerk that he was awful.

A fan saying he played awful rings alarm bells of agendas or wumming .

Pair Maguire with an elite, pacy CB and its fixed. You don't see United just have Rio or Vidic with some budget bang-average CB, nor Bruce or Pallister,

I agree with a lot of what you say but Maguire getting into City’s first 11 in front of Stones? No way man.
Maguire wouldn’t get a CB spot in front of Laporte and Laporte is currently being kept out of the side by Stones so Maguire would be ranked as 4th best CB.

Having said that, I also agree with your point that Maguire would shine for you if he had a CB akin to either Diaz or Laporte alongside him, because he’s a bit slow and certainly not the brightest of bears so would be much helped by having partner with a good understanding of the game to school him in where he ought to be.

 

[Jonno]

I agree with a lot of what you say but Maguire getting into City’s first 11 in front of Stones? No way man.
Maguire wouldn’t get a CB spot in front of Laporte and Laporte is currently being kept out of the side by Stones so Maguire would be ranked as 4th best CB.

Having said that, I also agree with your point that Maguire would shine for you if he had a CB akin to either Diaz or Laporte alongside him, because he’s a bit slow and certainly not the brightest of bears so would be much helped by having partner with a good understanding of the game to school him in where he ought to be.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I see Stones/Laporte/Maguire as similar level. Any of them could play in City's strongest as long as its alongside Dias, and that's exactly how I see it at United. To have Lindelof & Bailly backing up a Maguire partnership with a Dias type would be the fix needed.

 

[Devil may care]

I said.... The reasons we're not top is not because of Maguire. The reason is because DDG, Lindelof, Fred, McTomminay, Martial, Greenwood, do not come close to walking into this City team.

I stand by that. They have stacks of players in Greenwoods position and he doesn't get in that team. That's not a criticism of Greenwood, he's 19 and an exciting young talent. Its a compliment to City, they're streets ahead, and are easily the best team. Last night, they shuffle the pack and Mahrez comes in and scores a worldy. Thats where we aspire to be whether you're Ole in, Ole out Ole shake it all about.

Ok, I just wasn't a fan of throwing Mason into a negative light as he's still developing, and like i say the point of is moot as bar Shaw nobody from our team gets in theirs.

Ok, so you admit that Southgate likes Maguire, Ole likes Maguire, Pep likes Maguire, Jose publicly wanted to sign Maguire... These are all people within footballs elite. So why do you think you know better? Are you in a better position to judge Maguire's ability than Pep Guardiola, the very manager who is steamrolling the PL, based on having a solid defence?

I frankly don't think Ole and Soughgate are remotely elite, neither of them have won anything and Ole is only in the spot he's in because we were in trouble and needed an ex player to fill in, no top club was interested in him, and as I said Pep has made plenty of mistakes in the transfer market, Maguire would have been another one in his system.

On the contrary, Maguire is very much unfairly blamed because he DID cost £80m, because he did have a dodgy holiday in Greece, because he is English. I don't care what Neville says, he chops and changes his opinions every week to fit agendas and talking points on Sky. I can guarantee if he was Man United manager, he'd be starting Maguire every week and trying to find him a suitable partner too.

Not true, Maguire has been protected non stop in the media because he's English, it's always Lindelof to blame or Fred or Bailly or De Gea who Carragher thinks needs dropping for 12 games, Neville is the only one that's had the balls to call out the fact that while Lindelof isn't great, neither's Maguire. As for the price, we mention it, the pundits don't, unlike with Pogba where his fee is a constant stick to beat him with, and he got off super lightly with the Greece stuff, compare that to how Mason was treated with the international duty screw up.

If Lindelof is unfairly blamed why is his positioning poor most weeks, when simple low crosses come in and he can't clear, he's left wanting 5 yards away from the striker? Why doesn't he win enough headers with our high line in the middle of the pitch? Why does he lose so many 50/50's on the edge of the box causing overloads on our wingbacks, why on top of all of that is he ALSO slow? Why does he also not offer consistent forward passing? Why is almost every pass sideways or backwards? Because you compare that to Maguire, and the only thing similar is the pace issue. We knew Maguire had pace issues when we signed him. He's very good at winning headers, he snuffs out play on the ground, he provides good, forward passing, he drives up the pitch, he scores, he assists, he's often our last line of defence before a shot comes on our goal. The fact he's slow and expensive doesn't matter if you pair him with a suitable partner. We've had slow CB's before. Vidic was slow, once in a blue moon he got slaughtered by a fast striker, it would happen a few times a season. I didn't care, because he is one of the best CB's I've ever seen at our club. He had Rio, who had pace, an engine, he they had two quick fullbacks who could tuck in, they had Carrick who would drop to CB, the likes of Park, Fletcher, Rooney etc that would drop in. Maguire is not as good as Vidic, but he's good enough for us to have a proper title challenge. He'd be in City's starting 11 every week now if Pep had anything to do with it. Which brings me back to my original points, why do 1-2 posters come and bash him when he's done nothing wrong in a 1-1 draw?

You can't compare him to Vidic mate, he had trouble with Torres just as Stam did with Owen, but Vidic was a commanding monster at the back, much more mobile than Maguire, vocal, aggressive, you felt secure with him back there and he was happy for the midfield to push up, Maguire looks scared of his own shadow at times, wants to keep the 2 CM's close, passes the buck of responsibility to Lindelof to win first balls so he can pretend to be Baresi and every time he fecks up in his post match interview he accepts zero blame and casts it elsewhere. In games like West Brom leaders make a difference, he didn't, everyone knows Lindelof isn't good enough but most also realize Maguire isn't either.

I didn't say you said he was awful. However what you did, was pick up on a reply I gave to another poster, defending Maguire when that poster said he was awful. You've since translated that into that I think Maguire is the best CB in the country, but I don't. I think he's good enough to continue our re-build around. If we strengthened with a truly world class GK, CB, DM & RW, I think our squad is as good as any in world football. Maguire really isn't the problem. The fact we need to strengthen in at least 4 key areas also isn't Maguire's fault. He's come in and done his bit. I'm not celebrating finishing 3rd, nor being 2nd. I'm simply providing black and white proof that he's helped improve us as a team.

Yes because you were defending someone I felt was undeserving of it, which has led to a protracted but interesting exchange. If you think Maguire would get into City's team then you think he's in the top 5 CB's in the PL right now, and you can say he's not a problem but we won more without him, that's a black and white fact. I look at what you think we need and we mostly agree, just give me 2 CB's and I'll keep De Gea or give Henderson a shot.

 

[Jonno]

Not true, Maguire has been protected non stop in the media because he's English, it's always Lindelof to blame or Fred or Bailly or De Gea who Carragher thinks needs dropping for 12 games, Neville is the only one that's had the balls to call out the fact that while Lindelof isn't great, neither's Maguire. As for the price, we mention it, the pundits don't, unlike with Pogba where his fee is a constant stick to beat him with, and he got off super lightly with the Greece stuff, compare that to how Mason was treated with the international duty screw up.

I disagree completely. He's been labelled a fridge by social media. His transfer fee gets brought up in every conversation on Sky Sports. He gets bashed a lot by opposition fans, and by some of his own fans. Lindelof gets bashed because he's been here quite a few years now and never really been anything other than 6/10 at best, and often found being outmuscled, outstrengthed, out jumped, out paced. He's also had very little say on our form, or fortunes. He just plays through it whether we're 7th or 1st and has very little dramatically positive impacts. I think most fans can acknowledge he is not a top level CB. He would be playing week in week out at a Southampton, a Villa, he'd probably get in Arsenal's team. Thats about it.

You can't compare him to Vidic mate, he had trouble with Torres just as Stam did with Owen, but Vidic was a commanding monster at the back, much more mobile than Maguire, vocal, aggressive, you felt secure with him back there and he was happy for the midfield to push up, Maguire looks scared of his own shadow at times, wants to keep the 2 CM's close, passes the buck of responsibility to Lindelof to win first balls so he can pretend to be Baresi and every time he fecks up in his post match interview he accepts zero blame and casts it elsewhere. In games like West Brom leaders make a difference, he didn't, everyone knows Lindelof isn't good enough but most also realize Maguire isn't either.

I'm purely comparing Maguire to Vidic in a pace comparison, nothing else. I did say this in my previous post. I don't understand your view that Maguire wasn't good enough v's West Brom. What did he do that wasn't good enough? He was defensively solid apart from when he was illegally fouled, drove us forward, almost won us a penalty, almost scored the winner. If that header flys in at the end, the whole world would be posting how his leadership made a difference. We're back to where we were about 6 posts ago. Where did he pretend he was Baresi? When did he accept zero blame? He regularly comes out and says "we weren't good enough", which is literally the definition of taking blame.

Yes because you were defending someone I felt was undeserving of it, which has led to a protracted but interesting exchange. If you think Maguire would get into City's team then you think he's in the top 5 CB's in the PL right now, and you can say he's not a problem but we won more without him, that's a black and white fact. I look at what you think we need and we mostly agree, just give me 2 CB's and I'll keep De Gea or give Henderson a shot.

We've won more without him because of the cycle of the team and the management. We won more with Ashley Young playing every week but I can categorically list you 8-9 players in our current line up that is a level above Ashley Young. You can't just say Maguire is inferior because since he's been here we've not won anything. If that's the case, Steven Gerrard isn't as good as Darren Fletcher.

The only reason I keep posting in this thread, is because he's unfairly bashed when he puts decent performances out. That's the bottom line. The post-match knee-jerkers (not you, for what its worth!) annoy me and I take them on and reply saying "No Maguire is not awful", he played alright. And then it spirals every time