Great post
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
That's not the world I want to live in either. I'm saying the left has been failing to some degree on the messaging and means of achieving a more equal world.
Exactly. If you said to a poor black person that they were 'privileged', they would rightly say you're an idiot. But we have been telling poor white people they are in some sense 'privileged' and they've now told us we are idiots.
I don't know if you've seen the documentary 'Making a Murderer'? It was quite effective in showing that poor white people suffer tremendous discrimination at the hands of the criminal justice system and broader society because they are poor (and 'white trash').
It's hard to make this point coherently, but I'll give it a go. If you imagine a scale from 0 to 100, where 0 is someone with no 'privilege' whatsoever, and 100 is someone like Donald Trump (rich, large inheritance, white, male, straight, elite etc). For arguments sake, let's say the average poor black man comes out at a 15 on this imaginary privilege scale... if an average poor white man comes out at a 25 on the scale, telling him he's 'privileged' is going to piss him off because there's a whole 75 points above him. He may have some more advantages in society compared to the poor black man, but he is still relatively unprivileged.
They should do all the things they are doing: vote for the democrats, form protest groups and try to influence institutions to eliminate racial bias. What we as liberals shouldn't do is see the fight for greater racial equality as a reason to tell other disadvantaged groups (i.e. the poor white working class) that they are 'privileged' because of their race. It's a completely counterproductive and divisive message.
Agree on all that. I'm not denying it's worse, on average, to be poor and black than it is to be poor and white, for all the reasons you state. But the poor have far more common grievances than differences, regardless of race. I can't be as eloquent as Obama, so I'll just point back to that passage of his speech I quoted above.
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What I'm trying to explain is why the inevitable response is to feel attacked and get defensive. If we are to get liberals elected - and achieve real change - we need to find a message and a tactic which gets poor whites and blacks on the same side, not seeing each other as a threat or gaining advantages at the other group's expense.
Never heard/read that speech before. So on the money and gets right to the heart of the "whitelash" against the Democrats. Such a pity that it obviously didn't get heard by the people that needed to hear it.
Of course, the genuine grievances felt by working/middle class whites about their problems not being heard or not being taken as seriously as those of minorities are mixed in with a load of old school racism, homophobia and general dislike and fear of anyone who is different. When you have a growing population (native plus immigrants) competing for scarce resources then prejudice against the "other" is almost inevitable. Trump came to power on the back of all of the above, which makes it hard to feel much sympathy for the disenfranchised white working class, even if the liberal left is unfairly ignorant of their plight.
Again thanks for the response. A lot of food for thought and future debate don't you think? I've enjoyed talking to you. Gonna read that link you sent.
I agree with that wholeheartedly, and it will take effort from both sides to do so.
Honestly I think the recent elections both Brexit & Trump are the last throw of the dice for the old school way of thinking, there's a clear divide based on age, and I personally don't believe things will continue in this trend long term.
I really want this to be true.
I hope so. I'm less certain whether that will be the case though. The young haven't yet had their hopes and dreams crushed by the realities of the world. They could easily fall prey to the same reactionary and discriminatory forces that suckered in their parents, especially if their economic fortunes don't play out how they hope.
I could be wrong be it's worth saying the poorest and the middle class who did vote, voted in favour of Clinton. The problem was not enough people voted(I image that's more to do with Clinton being shite rather than people agreeing with Trump)
It's a bit cnuty of me but Obama for all his great talk hasn't help the situation at all.
It isn't quite as simple as that.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mr-personality/201410/why-are-older-people-more-conservative
This should be perhaps be of greatest concern.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/10/do-we-become-more-conservative-age
This means that the Conservatives probably shouldn’t be too worried about their support base thinning out and being replaced by younger, less conservative generations. If history repeats itself, then as people get older they will turn to the Conservatives. Our evidence suggests that this is probably not due to “social ageing” (getting married, having children or an increasing income), but rather to the direct psychological processes of ageing that tend to make people more resistant to change. This, in turn, makes people gravitate towards parties that defend the status quo.
All this is good news for the Conservatives. The population as a whole is getting older, after all. What’s more, older people are more likely to vote than younger people. Looking to the future, politicians of the right should perhaps worry less about appealing to younger voters, in the hope that they’ll stick with the same party as they age. Instead, the main concern should be ensuring the continued loyalty of their older voters.
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When you think about the (un)affordibility of housing and the pitiful pensions future generations are facing, the seeds for disenchantment and pure anger are already well and truly sown.
Ok cheers.
I got my info from here - http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/08/us/politics/election-exit-polls.html?_r=0
Mainly this bit
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You have to adjust at least for race and sex (and every other factor that significantly influenced the choice of the voter) in this analysis to be able to make a real conclusion. May be somebody have already done that so try to look it up.
This is a bit off the political correctness topic, but there was a Cracked article about the people that Mike has been talking about. The article is called "How Half Of America Lost Its F**king Mind", and I first found out about it from a video I watched a couple of weeks ago, which I'll post below as I think it's a good watch
The general topic comes up at 28:00 which I'd recommend watching from, but if you want to skip straight to the Cracked article go to 38:30.
The general topic comes up at 28:00 which I'd recommend watching from, but if you want to skip straight to the Cracked article go to 38:30.
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Mockney posted that article a few weeks ago and it's one of the best I've read in terms of understanding Trump's appeal.
For context, the "under 30k" figure in 2012 was 65-35 in favour of Obama, and 250k+ was 55-42 in favour of Romney.
It's so scarily fascinating how at least 85% of that article can be applied directly to my country (and I assume to so many other places in the 'western' and probably whole world).
I think that Liberals, especially white liberals, do have a bit of a weak spot when it comes to working class white people* which has led to them being alienated and pushed towards people like Trump.
Although I do think another inescapable conclusion from this election is that the panic over PC culture overwhelming america was a load of overblown bullshit. Mainly caused by the media focusing on some of the most liberal places in the world, colleges, where all these liberal students were free to run wild with their liberal ideas, then report it as if it was somehow going to be imposed on anyone else. The largest demographic of generation snowflake, whites, just voted for Trump, I think America can rest easy from the threat of safe spaces.
* I think this is best exemplified by the fact that Idiocracy is a film hailed as a genius work of satire. It's entire conceit is that the world is getting dumbed down because stupid people are breeding more than smart people. It's a very clearly smug, classist, eugenics inspired piece of shit rational that was not only accepted but hailed by a whole bunch of liberal people mainly because it is illustrated by a dumb white hillbilly family.
Although I do think another inescapable conclusion from this election is that the panic over PC culture overwhelming america was a load of overblown bullshit. Mainly caused by the media focusing on some of the most liberal places in the world, colleges, where all these liberal students were free to run wild with their liberal ideas, then report it as if it was somehow going to be imposed on anyone else. The largest demographic of generation snowflake, whites, just voted for Trump, I think America can rest easy from the threat of safe spaces.
* I think this is best exemplified by the fact that Idiocracy is a film hailed as a genius work of satire. It's entire conceit is that the world is getting dumbed down because stupid people are breeding more than smart people. It's a very clearly smug, classist, eugenics inspired piece of shit rational that was not only accepted but hailed by a whole bunch of liberal people mainly because it is illustrated by a dumb white hillbilly family.
I don't get the 'safe space' thing tbh. Do black college students really feel in such mortal terror when walking around campus that they need some form of black-only common panic room
I hate that shit's gotten so bad that I find myself more or less thinking "yes" when faced with the question posed by this thread. I'm in a fecking group with men's rights activists and red pillers and other scum. Personally I reckon political correctness is fine... it's essentially just common courtesy... but it had to go mad
Safe spaces aren't just for black people. It's for people triggered by whatever... took a course in Greek literature and found it a bit too rapey? Go stroke a kitten in the safe space room.I don't get the 'safe space' thing tbh. Do black college students really feel in such mortal terror when walking around campus that they need some form of black-only common panic room
Edit: appears I'm conflating some stuff.
They should try doing a boring bio course when the mouse experiments are described
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Safe spaces aren't literally rooms where people can be safe from physical danger. Nor are they particularly associated with black students. Safe space: "A place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome or challenged on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect, dignity and feelings and strongly encourage everyone to respect others".I don't get the 'safe space' thing tbh. Do black college students really feel in such mortal terror when walking around campus that they need some form of black-only common panic room
Slightly over the top but they are mainly used by young liberal students who do tend to be a bit overzealous. Essentially harmless but people sure do love to make fun of them and portray them as america's biggest threat.
Wasn't sure what this was, googled it... what in the name of the holiest of feck.I hate that shit's gotten so bad that I find myself more or less thinking "yes" when faced with the question posed by this thread. I'm in a fecking group with men's rights activists and red pillers and other scum. Personally I reckon political correctness is fine... it's essentially just common courtesy... but it had to go mad
MRAs, theredpill, and incels.
@Ubik
If you want to get a little sick every day.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/
#cuckandproud or something. It's amazing that the right-wingers who deify personal responsibility aren't willing to take responsibility for their failure to attract women.
If you want to get a little sick every day.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/
#cuckandproud or something. It's amazing that the right-wingers who deify personal responsibility aren't willing to take responsibility for their failure to attract women.
Sorry about that, I should have spoilered it. We usually don't free a mind once it's past a certain age.
Nah, just because some automatically group you with the most extreme on the other "side" for having different opinions, doesn't mean it's true. There are plenty of different ways to think about things than either A or B.I hate that shit's gotten so bad that I find myself more or less thinking "yes" when faced with the question posed by this thread. I'm in a fecking group with men's rights activists and red pillers and other scum. Personally I reckon political correctness is fine... it's essentially just common courtesy... but it had to go mad
Seeing people moaning about non-Japanese people making sushi being offensive cultural appropriation and finding it ridiculous doesn't mean you're a Roy Chubby Brown fan who's angry that you can't talk about going for a "chinky" or to the "Paki shop".
Of course, saying all that, for all I know you might be a big racist bastard.
Not sure I'm any the wiser tbh. It does imply other communal areas are 'unsafe' by definition though. Life was less complicated when I was at uni.
Don't take the red pill Olly!
Hehe. Exactly where I'm at too.I hate that shit's gotten so bad that I find myself more or less thinking "yes" when faced with the question posed by this thread. I'm in a fecking group with men's rights activists and red pillers and other scum. Personally I reckon political correctness is fine... it's essentially just common courtesy... but it had to go mad
Would that turn me into that Elliot Rodgers nutter?
So you're saying Hitler and Gandhi aren't essentially the same by virtue of their vegetarianism? Interesting.
Nah. If they were vegan's on the other hand...
So you're saying Hitler and Gandhi aren't essentially the same by virtue of their vegetarianism? Interesting.
I assumed it was a Matrix thing. These new liberals are on a different wavelength to me.
Good grief. Honestly I probably should keep tabs on that, I keep getting surprised there are these people out there, I'm naive as feck.
Genuinely wondering whether I need to learn Kung-Fu.
Ah I wouldn't know about that, I've never seen The Matrix.
Heh. Very good.
The concept is indeed from the Matrix. These worthies have taken the bitter pill, snapped out of our manufactured reality, and uncovered the truth!
The truth that women are some sort of manipulative gods, feminism is a movement dedicated to denying sex to men, and that , to quote a current upvoted post, "You Owe Women You Just Met Absolutely Nothing Except a Proper fecking"