Hillsborough

[Marching]

The thing is now though, if I respond with not an argument or a snide remark but a vaild point/query to the above, I'll get called a cnut.....

Try it and see.

One thing I can tell you is that if you reply again with what you posted and then deleted at 11:35 you will be removed.

This is a sensitive subject and, if you take nothing else away with you, remember this...what happened to Liverpool fans in the Leppings Lane end of Hillsborough could have happened to any match going football fan. Me, you, anybody. What happened that day was a tragedy for all football fans and it would open a few minds if people took the time to read what really happened that day.

One crucial decision was made by the coroner, Dr Stefan Popper, to restrict the inquest into Hillsborough to events up to 3.15pm on the day of the disaster. He ruled that all victims by then had received irreversible crushing injuries.

What the 3.15pm "cut-off" did was to close down official investigation into the police and emergency services' response to the disaster, which several paramedics have since condemned as "chaotic." The 3.15pm cut-off meant some families never discovered what happened to their relatives up to the moment they died, or whether any might have been saved had the rescue operation been better organised.

The families and friends of those fans deserve better.

JFT 96

 

[Marching]

Yeah, I mean it's not like you have a record of it or anything is it?

Do you really think this is the time & place to make pathetic point scoring posts?

 

[UnitedRoadRed]

Do you really think this is the time & place to make pathetic point scoring posts?

Do you really think I'm point scoring?

There is a balanced argument in most situations. For Liverpool to say they were in no way at all at fault is ridiculous.

 

[Marching]

Do you really think I'm point scoring?

There is a balanced argument in most situations. For Liverpool to say they were in no way at all at fault is ridiculous.

I do, yes. By the way you made your point in such a sarcastic way.


Exactly how do you think the Liverpool fans were to blame for the disaster at Hillsborough?

 

[Wibble]

If you actually attended games in that era you would know that surging was very common at all grounds and there was very little individuals could do to stop it and people treated getting in for free like a sport, not that I am suggesting that this was a contributing factor at Hillsborough. What really happened at Hillsborough was that football fans were treated like cattle as was usual in that era and in this particular case this resulted in so many deaths. The majority of fans of all clubs who attended games in that era watched Hillsborough and thought "there but for the grace of God go I". The main factor on the day was mismanagement by the police but there were other ground related factors and the misguided policy of fencing/caging all fans was probably the most to blame.

 

[Wibble]

"If you have nothing nice to say then say nothing" as my Gran always used to say.

 

[utdalltheway]

If you actually attended games in that era you would know that surging was very common at all grounds and there was very little individuals could do to stop it and people treated getting in for free like a sport, not that I am suggesting that this was a contributing factor at Hillsborough. What really happened at Hillsborough was that football fans were treated like cattle as was usual in that era and in this particular case this resulted in so many deaths. The majority of fans of all clubs who attended games in that era watched Hillsborough and thought "there but for the grace of God go I". The main factor on the day was mismanagement by the police but there were other ground related factors and the misguided policy of fencing/caging all fans was probably the most to blame.

that's part of the problem Wibs. some people don't remember the crushes. those that do are more likely to be sympathetic.

 

[RedPhil1957]

that's part of the problem Wibs. some people don't remember the crushes. those that do are more likely to be sympathetic.

Very true, I was at Forest v United with close to 50000 in the ground --- trent end if any remember it ---- for about 50 yards including a steepish flight of about 10-12 steps and my feet did not touch the ground the whole way -- just a part of a mass movement of bodies and there was absolutely nothing i could do just go with it.

Nothing to do with ticketless fans just part of going to big games, until after Taylor.

 

[UnitedRoadRed]

I do, yes. By the way you made your point in such a sarcastic way.


Exactly how do you think the Liverpool fans were to blame for the disaster at Hillsborough?

Not at all Marching, I'm trying to highlight that Liverpool fans claim nothing's ever their fault. You could say now's not the time, but for the past 20 years they've not wanted to discuss it.

Their trying to gain entry without tickets was a *minor* factor in it. I've been in crowd surges, my mate was at Wednesday in 76 and said that concerns were expressed about Leppings Lane back then. The two main factors were the ground design and the decisions made by those in charge of crowd control.

Has any thought been given to what would have happened immediately outside the ground had the gate *not* been opened? Obviously it's speculation, ifs, buts and the like. Easy with hindsight to say open the side paddocks and get something in place to get the Liverpool fans in there. What would upset me more were I a Liverpool fan (and indeed it probably does) would be the reaction by SYP to their initial mistake, not the mistake itself. It's not the mistake in itself that's the issue for me, it's how they (SYP) reacted to that initial error of judgement. They thought they were helping ease the pressure outside the ground and didn't appreciate the consequences nor reacted to them.

 

[Stobzilla]

Yeah, I mean it's not like you have a record of it or anything is it?

Not cool.

Irregardless to weather or not you do want to present a counter balance to the argument.

There are better ways of going about it.

 

[Murphman]

Not at all Marching, I'm trying to highlight that Liverpool fans claim nothing's ever their fault. You could say now's not the time, but for the past 20 years they've not wanted to discuss it.

Their trying to gain entry without tickets was a *minor* factor in it. I've been in crowd surges, my mate was at Wednesday in 76 and said that concerns were expressed about Leppings Lane back then. The two main factors were the ground design and the decisions made by those in charge of crowd control.

Has any thought been given to what would have happened immediately outside the ground had the gate *not* been opened? Obviously it's speculation, ifs, buts and the like. Easy with hindsight to say open the side paddocks and get something in place to get the Liverpool fans in there. What would upset me more were I a Liverpool fan (and indeed it probably does) would be the reaction by SYP to their initial mistake, not the mistake itself. It's not the mistake in itself that's the issue for me, it's how they (SYP) reacted to that initial error of judgement. They thought they were helping ease the pressure outside the ground and didn't appreciate the consequences nor reacted to them.

I dispute that, we'll talk about hillsborough forever and a day, the more it stays on the radar the better. What we won't do is be put in a position whereby we continually have defend ourselves against allegations that we were to blame in any shape or form. It's a done deal for the ill informed (of which there are a lot less after yesterday), we've been defending ourselves from the moment Duckinfield told the watching world on the news that 'Liverpool fans stormed the gate', then the rag followed that up 48 hours later and that was it guilty as charged.

The great mistake wasn't just opening the gate, had they blocked the entrance to the middle pens and then opened the gate there would have been no problem. Rank incompetence. As for you other point, a friend of mine when she was just a kid went to the Spurs v Arsenal title decider in 1971. She got there early and with her dad was about 5 yards from the turnstile. Half an hour later she was 30 yards awayy and gave up. The crush outside was terrible at hillsborough and very dangerous but at least outside and not in an enclosed space the crowd will alway find relief on the outskirts of the crush. When you have metal barriers and nowhere to go it's all over.

 

[Marching]

Not at all Marching, I'm trying to highlight that Liverpool fans claim nothing's ever their fault. You could say now's not the time, but for the past 20 years they've not wanted to discuss it.

Their trying to gain entry without tickets was a *minor* factor in it. I've been in crowd surges, my mate was at Wednesday in 76 and said that concerns were expressed about Leppings Lane back then. The two main factors were the ground design and the decisions made by those in charge of crowd control.

Has any thought been given to what would have happened immediately outside the ground had the gate *not* been opened? Obviously it's speculation, ifs, buts and the like. Easy with hindsight to say open the side paddocks and get something in place to get the Liverpool fans in there. What would upset me more were I a Liverpool fan (and indeed it probably does) would be the reaction by SYP to their initial mistake, not the mistake itself. It's not the mistake in itself that's the issue for me, it's how they (SYP) reacted to that initial error of judgement. They thought they were helping ease the pressure outside the ground and didn't appreciate the consequences nor reacted to them.

But this is Hillsborough we are talking about not any other game where some Liverpool fans have behaved worse than animals and charged gates and even robbed their own for tickets. Personally, I'd hang them by their balls.

Hillsborough was different and as Taylor said ticketless fans played little or no part in the problems. The problems of that day were solely down to the SYP and how they policed the day...not only at the Leppings Lane end but before you even reached it.

I've been in that end for 2 FA Cup semi's with Leeds in 72 and 87 and our behaviour will have been no different to the Scousers. We pushed and surged because there was no way of stopping it...I remember my feet not touching the ground in the tunnel and it was frightening but we got in and out safely which shows it can be policed properly.

20 years on and it still pisses me off that those whose job it was to ensure a crowd made up of predominantly young people doing something they and I love, died. They went to a football match and simply didn't come home. I can't imagine what that felt like for the parents, brothers, sisters of those who died and somebody should be brought to account for it.

The Police Complaints Authority decided that Chief Superintendent Duckenfield and Superintendent Murray should face disciplinary charges but when Duckenfield retired due to ill health (yeh, right) in advance of a disciplinary tribunal's ruling on whether he was guilty it also ruled out any chance of Murray being charged too.

 

[theimperialinn]

After all the coverage over the last week or so the conclusion that I draw is that the disaster occured because of a culmination of contributing factors. The inadequate crowd control, police failure to respond to the crowd concerns (which may have been because of Liverpools reputation after Heysel and the holligan era), the traffic delay, etc. All these factors coming together at the same time spelt disaster.