History/Archaeology Thread

[peterstorey]

Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

 

[Penna]

The wise inherit honour, but fools get only shame.

 

[Crustanoid]

If anyone is interested, it is now possible to download every previous episode of 'In Our Time' on Radio 4 website

 

[Penna]

In the words of Arthur Askey, I thang you.

 

[Stretch]

The late Stone Age may have had an earlier start in Africa than previously thought — by some 20,000 years.

A new analysis of artifacts from a cave in South Africa reveals that the residents were carving bone tools, using pigments, making beads and even using poison 44,000 years ago. These sorts of artifacts had previously been linked to the San culture, which was thought to have emerged around 20,000 years ago.

Full article here and here.

Basically, it was initially thought the San, ancestors for modern humans in Southern Africa, only started about 20000 years ago. This find proves it went back as far as 44000 years ago. Some even think it could go back to 60000 but no evidence exists for this.

 

[SteveJ]

Sacrificed army unearthed in Danish bogs:

A fractured skull and a thighbone hacked in half. Finds of damaged human bones along with axes, spears, clubs and shields confirm that the bog at Alken Enge was the site of violent conflict.

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogs...my-unearthed-in-danish-bogs.html#.UC0ULalmR48


Roman 'curse tablet' found in Kent:

A "curse tablet" made of lead and buried in a Roman farmstead has been unearthed in East Farleigh.

Inscribed in capital letters are the names of 14 people, which experts believe were intended to have bad spells cast upon them.

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogs...-curse-tablet-found-in-kent.html#.UC0UY6lmR48

 

[The_Red_Hope]

Do any of you tards listen to Dan Carlin's hardcore history podcast? Makes the internet worthwhile. Fascinating stuff.

 

[MrMarcello]

That 1783 stuff... I can only imagine all the religious nuts going around proclaiming an end of times. Granted it would probably make sense if that shit was happening.

 

[SteveJ]

I dug up £10m of iron age coins

It seemed a trench had been dug by a Celtic tribe fleeing northern France in the first century BC, as Julius Caesar's legions advanced across Europe. The coins had simply been flung in and buried...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/aug/31/i-dug-up-10m-pounds-iron-age-coins

 

[R.N7]

Spoiler

Poor soul.

 

[pocco]

Just been to Cyprus and whilst I was there, the ship Nautilus was anchored just off the coast. I went on a fishing trip one day and the fishermen that took us were telling us that Robert Ballard (found Titanic) was onboard Nautilus and he had made some big discoveries. Apparently he found over 100 artifacts on the seabed, found 2 shipwrecks and many other things. The fishermen said that he's currently looking for the lost city of Atlantis around Cyrpus and Turkey.

 

[Grinner]

Related to that weather stuff somewhat, weren't those famous Turner sunsets down to particulate matter from Krakatoa causing lurid skies?

 

[SteveJ]

2,500-year-old tattooed Siberian princess' body found in ice-clad burial chamber

A richly coloured fleecy carpet found in one of the Pazyryk mounds

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-princess-died-2-500-years-ago-revealed.html

 

[utdalltheway]

that's like a Viz story, a headline about one thing and the photo of something else.

 

[SteveJ]

The other photos in the article were a bit too big to post here.

 

[SteveJ]

'The magical photos that show brave men who felled California redwoods by hand':

More:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...California-redwoods.html?ICO=most_read_module

 

[barros]

Mystic places - tiahuanaco ( tiwanaku)

http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_6.htm#Pumapunku

If this place was built 17 000 years ago - Upper Paleolithic, the archaeologists may have some difficulty to explain that men came from Europe to America 20 000 years ago only.
No writing no wheel and no metal tools but they built something that was more complex than the pyramids.

You guys can see here on google images what they built:
https://www.google.com/search?q=puma+punku&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=WNRHUOjZKcnx0gGjiYGwCA&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=677

 

[nimic]

Look, this is the history/archaeology thread, please don't turn it into another pseudo-science "look at this mystery" thread.

I am assuming you actually meant to post this link, which says things like:

This initial construction date, being vastly older than that deemed possible by the prevailing paradigm of history, was (and still is) ridiculed by mainstream archaeologists and prehistorians.

In support of his radical ideas concerning the great antiquity of Tiahuanaco, Hancock gives startling proof that the coastline of South America was mapped in extraordinarily accurate detail long before that continent was “discovered” by Europeans.

Did these same shadowy people construct and use the enigmatic city of Tiahuanaco? And, if so, what became of them? Is it not highly significant that both ancient myths and modern day geological studies tell of great floods that swept the high Andean altiplano some twelve thousand years ago?

Velikovsky has theorized that an enormous chunk of rock was spun off from the planet Jupiter and that it rampaged as a comet through the inner solar system, nearly colliding with the earth and causing catastrophes spoken about in numerous ancient mythologies.

I mean, mainstream archaeologists and pre-historians? Oh my, what a shadowy cabal. I get that some people want to believe in things that have no evidence, but at least pick something which doesn't have a whole lot of evidence the other way around.

 

[SteveJ]

First, he persecuted Daily Mail readers; now, he's picking on...um...Velikovskians!1!! Therefore, I shall ban you from my thread* toute de suite, Mr niM!




* I don't actually have any powers to do this.

 

[nimic]

 

[JustAFan]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/23/opinion/greene-military-veterans/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

A story about the annual reunion of the US 63rd Infantry Division from WW2. How there are now so few left alive and well enough to travel that this will likely be the last reunion. Got me thinking of how soon that generation will be gone. The men and women who fought a world war, many of whom lived through the Great Depression. After the war helped rebuild their nations. Time passes, and each generation fades, but this story did make me feel a bit sad thinking about how soon they could all be gone.

 

[Penna]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/23/opinion/greene-military-veterans/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

A story about the annual reunion of the US 63rd Infantry Division from WW2. How there are now so few left alive and well enough to travel that this will likely be the last reunion. Got me thinking of how soon that generation will be gone. The men and women who fought a world war, many of whom lived through the Great Depression. After the war helped rebuild their nations. Time passes, and each generation fades, but this story did make me feel a bit sad thinking about how soon they could all be gone.

It's poignant, isn't it?

It was sad a few years ago when the last First World War veteran died, especially as I remember a time when everyone's grandfather had fought in that war, mine included, and those who came back were still around as men in their 70s. My own late father and his brothers all saw extensive active service abroad in the Second World War and it seemed such a recent event when I was a child.

Back in the 1980s, I attended an event where a number of First World War veterans got together to talk about their experiences. I spoke to a man who had met Lloyd George, and another who had been to Rudyard Kipling's house with a few of his pals, right after they'd got off the ships home. I remember thinking that it was living history. I also used to know a chap who had fought on the Somme - he lived until he was 97 years old. All gone now, but a lot of them recorded their memories for the archives of the Imperial War Museum, so we still have their words even though they are no longer with us.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/23/opinion/greene-military-veterans/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

A story about the annual reunion of the US 63rd Infantry Division from WW2. How there are now so few left alive and well enough to travel that this will likely be the last reunion. Got me thinking of how soon that generation will be gone. The men and women who fought a world war, many of whom lived through the Great Depression. After the war helped rebuild their nations. Time passes, and each generation fades, but this story did make me feel a bit sad thinking about how soon they could all be gone.

It is especially poignant for myself, as all four of my grandparents were involved in World War 2. When I was a child there were loads of veterans around, one of my granddads even used to come to the local primary school to educate the children about that period. Now all my Grandparents have passed on and, like you say, that link to one of the most significant periods in modern history doesn't have long left. Although I heard all my grandparents stories as a child I think that I missed out on really appreciating them as an adult, especially my Nan, as she lived through the blitz in London, an unimaginable time, yet I never really learnt of her experience through it.

 

[Penna]

I heard a lot from my late mum about being a kid during the last war - my gran was on her own (her husband had died when my mum was 2, having never recovered from the effects of being gassed in France during the First World War). Gran's oldest child and only boy died in 1916 in infancy, and so she was on her own with three girls, no man's wage coming in and no widow's pension, as he'd cashed in the policy due to hardship.

She worked full-time in a sweat-shop factory making collars for shirts, standing at an ironing board all day long. At lunchtime, she would literally run into the town if she'd heard a shop had something off ration, so she could feed her kids, and then run back to work for the rest of the day. Mum said if they managed to buy a rabbit, she would be sent back to the town (a walk of several miles) to get a penny back on the rabbit skin, as they were used for making coats. Later, my gran took her sister and brother-in-law in as lodgers - he was an engine driver and didn't have to go to war as a result. However, she was like a servant to them, really, and life was even harder.

Exeter was badly blitzed because of its proximity to the naval yards in Plymouth, and much time was spent in the shelter in the garden, which was shared with another family and was always full of water.

Her first holiday was when my parents took us all for a stay in a cottage in Cornwall when she was well into her 60s - as the family was from Devon, it wasn''t a huge distance to travel, but it was a wonderful adventure to her.

She died in her own armchair one Sunday afternoon after eating a roast dinner. Everyone thought she was asleep for a while, it was that peaceful - and anyway, she never complained about anything at all.

At least she had a good death, because she had had a bloody awful life.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

It makes you realise how lucky we are. I know that I am guilty of getting lost in my own bullshit. We live in comfort because of the sacrifices of that generation. I think a little perspective is always good for ones emotional well being.

 

[nimic]

Most generations have had it better than the one immediately before.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

Most generations have had it better than the one immediately before.

And?

 

[nimic]

And.. that.

 

[Penna]

I think niMic was agreeing with you, Jimy.

 

[nimic]

Well, I wasn't disagreeing with him. Let's call it an addendum.

I'm just in it for the history, baby.

 

[R.N7]

Buddhist statue, discovered by Nazi expedition, is made of meteorite, new study reveals

Priceless thousand year old statue is first carving of a human in a meteorite

It sounds like an artifact from an Indiana Jones film; a 1,000 year-old ancient Buddhist statue which was first recovered by a Nazi expedition in 1938 has been analysed by scientists and has been found to be carved from a meteorite. The findings, published in Meteoritics and Planetary Science, reveal the priceless statue to be a rare ataxite class of meteorite.

The statue, known as the Iron Man, weighs 10kg and is believed to represent a stylistic hybrid between the Buddhist and pre-Buddhist Bon culture that portrays the god Vaisravana, the Buddhist King of the North, also known as Jambhala in Tibet.

The statue was discovered in 1938 by an expedition of German scientists led by renowned zoologist Ernst Schäfer. The expedition was supported by Nazi SS Chief Heinrich Himmler and the entire expeditionary team were believed to have been SS members.

Schäfer would later claim that he accepted SS support to advance his scientific research into the wildlife and anthropology of Tibet. However, historians believe Himmler's support may have been based on his belief that the origins of the Aryan race could be found in Tibet.

It is unknown how the statue was discovered, but it is believed that the large swastika carved into the centre of the figure may have encouraged the team to take it back to Germany. Once it arrived in Munich it became part of a private collection and only became available for study following an auction in 2007.

The first team to study the origins of the statue was led by Dr Elmar Buchner from Stuttgart University. The team was able to classify it as an ataxite, a rare class of iron meteorite with high contents of nickel.

"The statue was chiseled from a fragment of the Chinga meteorite which crashed into the border areas between Mongolia and Siberia about 15,000 years ago," said Dr Buchner. "While the first debris was officially discovered in 1913 by gold prospectors, we believe that this individual meteorite fragment was collected many centuries before."

Meteorites inspired worship from many ancient cultures ranging from the Inuit's of Greenland to the aborigines of Australia. Even today one of the most famous worship sites in the world, Mecca in Saudi Arabia, is based upon the Black Stone, believed to be a stony meteorite. Dr Buchner's team believe the Iron Man originated from the Bon culture of the 11th Century.

"The Iron Man statue is the only known illustration of a human figure to be carved into a meteorite, which means we have nothing to compare it to when assessing value," concluded Dr Buchner. "Its origins alone may value it at $20,000; however, if our estimation of its age is correct and it is nearly a thousand years old it could be invaluable."

Spoiler

 

[SteveJ]

This is where Julius Caesar was stabbed

Story:

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogs...pot-where-julius-caesar-was.html#.UHwLtm-eBc4

 

[Crustanoid]

Let me guess - a car park in leicester

 

[SteveJ]

 

[SteveJ]

Mutilated skulls, skeletons with four legs and tattooed skin: Ghoulish exhibition reveals contents of secret 19th century hospital cemetery where they buried victims of illegal dissection:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tury-burial-ground-Royal-London-Hospital.html

 

[Penna]

When you believed in the resurrection of the body as a literal concept, you can understand why this was such a terrifying thing for people and why they went to such lengths to avoid becoming a victim, with iron coffins and the like.

No dignity even in death for the poor, it seems.

 

[nimic]

As grotesque as it seems, we should probably be glad for it. Illegal dissection was what brought medicine in from the dark ages.

 

[Nucks]

Full article here and here.

Basically, it was initially thought the San, ancestors for modern humans in Southern Africa, only started about 20000 years ago. This find proves it went back as far as 44000 years ago. Some even think it could go back to 60000 but no evidence exists for this.

Always thought that there was new emerging evidence that seriously challenged the widely held start date for civilization. The problem is the entrenchment of academics. They are extremely resistant to this sort of re-evaluation, as in their entire career and life work could be invalidated over night.

The lack of evidence argument seems to conveniently ignore that civilization tends to develop on the coast and sea levels have risen significantly since the time frame in question. The bit of evidence that does raise questions however is summarily dismissed as nonsense.

 

[nimic]

Always thought that there was new emerging evidence that seriously challenged the widely held start date for civilization. The problem is the entrenchment of academics. They are extremely resistant to this sort of re-evaluation, as in their entire career and life work could be invalidated over night.

The lack of evidence argument seems to conveniently ignore that civilization tends to develop on the coast and sea levels have risen significantly since the time frame in question. The bit of evidence that does raise questions however is summarily dismissed as nonsense.

I don't really know anything about the argument in question, but this just struck me as a very sketchy thing to say.

That is not in any way, shape or form evidence. Unless there are other things that back it up, and make it more likely than the prevalent theory, it's not really relevant.

What specifically are you thinking about?

 

[Penna]

Europe's oldest prehistoric town unearthed in Bulgaria

Archaeologists in Bulgaria say they have uncovered the oldest prehistoric town found to date in Europe.

The walled fortified settlement, near the modern town of Provadia, is thought to have been an important centre for salt production.

Its discovery in north-east Bulgaria may explain the huge gold hoard found nearby 40 years ago.

Archaeologists believe that the town was home to some 350 people and dates back to between 4700 and 4200 BC.

That is about 1,500 years before the start of ancient Greek civilisation.

The residents boiled water from a local spring and used it to create salt bricks, which were traded and used to preserve meat.

Salt was a hugely valuable commodity at the time, which experts say could help to explain the huge defensive stone walls which ringed the town.

Excavations at the site, beginning in 2005, have also uncovered the remains of two-storey houses, a series of pits used for rituals, as well as parts of a gate and bastion structures.

A small necropolis, or burial ground, was discovered at the site earlier this year and is still being studied by archaeologists.

"We are not talking about a town like the Greek city-states, ancient Rome or medieval settlements, but about what archaeologists agree constituted a town in the fifth millennium BC," Vasil Nikolov, a researcher with Bulgaria's National Institute of Archaeology, told the AFP news agency.

Archaeologist Krum Bachvarov from the institute said the latest find was "extremely interesting".

"The huge walls around the settlement, which were built very tall and with stone blocks... are also something unseen in excavations of prehistoric sites in south-east Europe so far," he told AFP.

Similar salt mines near Tuzla in Bosnia and Turda in Romania help prove the existence of a series of civilisations which also mined copper and gold in the Carpathian and Balkan mountains during the same period.

BBC Europe correspondent Nick Thorpe says this latest discovery almost certainly explains the treasure found exactly 40 years ago at a cemetery on the outskirts of Varna, 35km (21 miles) away, the oldest hoard of gold objects found anywhere in the world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20156681