Martial
Full Member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2015
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- 547
Get rid of Pogba who is a complete liability in a midfield 2, and replace him with a DM, and our midfield options improve ten-fold.
Yeah I’ve been thinking along those lines. People gushing over Calvin Phillips are seriously over estimating his quality compared to Fred. I said before that if Fred was playing in that England team in place of Phillips, he would look very good. The problem at Utd is that the system is not set up in his favour; he does what he’s good at very well but our system means he is also expected to do what Rice does for England and that is not his game.Our midfielders are decent, but I think we lack a holding midfielder. A Carick, Jorginho type to dictate play.
Fred is regular for Bazils world class squad so if he is good enough for them he is good enough for us.
They are a passable midfield two. Problem is we are expected to compete with the best side ever in English football, so we need to upgrade
This is exactly right. We could evolve to 4-1-4-1, 4-1-3-2 with the right DM. Someone who can shield the defence and a decent passer. Have 5 attacking players on which would help break down stubborn low block defences more.McFred aren’t first XI material at this point. Pogba and Bruno obviously are. So the solution isn’t another all around mid (unless Pogba leaves), it’s a top class DM. Something we don’t have in the side and haven’t since early Matic.
Those are all physical attributes. I’m talking about how good he is at football. He’s a midfielder who can’t pass.Fred is upper midtable player?? I've read enough.
Not many player in the world can run as much as him, his work rate, and tenacity. If you fail to realize the type of midfielder he is, I'm very disappointed.
Box to box midfielder is the popular type now in football, Fred is that player.
Good post, I'd say we're missing a formation adjustment as well.There are two things when you're assessing the central midfield of United.
1) United only have four orthodox central midfielders. On an individual basis, they are a pretty good group. But they have their major flaws such as...Fred and McTominay are not good enough with the ball and just not good enough overall. Name title winning central midfielders at United and they fall behind them. And before you point to Cleverley, remember who is partner was (Carrick) and their function/role within the team, which is extremely important. Matic was a top player once, but he's clearly past it. Matic in his prime or even just a version of him that has a little bit more legs is head and shoulders better than Fred and McTominay, yet you wouldn't classify Matic's prime as world class. Pogba is a top class player, but when you figure in the fact that the PL is a much more competitive league that he's traditionally been at and the more ground he is responsible for (i.e. defensive work and maintaining balance within the central area of the pitch), he's too vulnerable.
2) Functionality of the central midfield. City, Chelsea, Leicester, Liverpool. Those four clubs are the main Top 4/title challengers for the most part.
They either operate with three central midfielders (City and Liverpool) or 3 CBs with 2 CMs (Leicester and Chelsea). I'd say that City have a great balance between their 3 CMs in defense/attack/closing down and pressing. Liverpool CMs are all about pressing, ball retention, high workrate, and making sure their fullbacks can maintain high positions to supplement the attack. Leicester and Chelsea have good defensive foundations and functional CMs. It's harder to break them down through the middle due to a 3rd CB almost acting like a sweeper. But they are good in possession as well and use the width of the wingbacks well.
So United are the only top 5 club that uses two traditional CMs in the middle of the park without the benefit of 3 CBs. So what does that mean? They have to bring more to the team individually and as a functioning pair. It's a big ask.
Have to cover the ground around them, but also have to connect the middle of the pitch with the attack (usually wide or with Bruno's help). Press and close down around the pitch and win the ball back higher up the pitch. Only Pogba is able to hurt opponents anywhere from the middle of the park. But the higher he goes up the pitch, the more isolated his partner is and an opposing midfielder can run off Pogba in transition.
Ole struck a balance with Pogba as the left forward and McFred in central midfield in some big games. It worked for the most part.
For what the total ask is, United's midfield is clearly missing a player who has the technical ability of Matic but the agility/work rate of either Fred or McTominay. Carrick wasn't exactly fast or slow, but his reading of the game, positioning, and anticipation plus his passing ability would be a tremendous player in the current United side who would easily started ahead of McTominay and Fred.
If you believe the transfer forum, it’s Rice.Would love to know who this mystery "DMC" is that everyone says is this magical player that somehow ties up our lack of pace centre backs, wingers who don't fancy too much defensive work, and Bruno and Pogba. That needs to be both a defensive beast, but have the ability to play it and set the tempo
Maybe some sort of incredible mix of peak Vieira/Keane/Makelele
If passing sidewards to a mate 5 yards away and occasional interceptions makes you the best in the world, he definitely has a chance.If you believe the transfer forum, it’s Rice.
Kante can't just play with Pogba either. France always use a third midfielder when Pogba plays, whereas whenever he doesn't play they are more likely to only use two midfielders. In fact in Pogba's entire career he's never had a partner who was able to consistently work beside him in a midfield two. How long do we blame the partners instead of Pogba himself?Those are all physical attributes. I’m talking about how good he is at football. He’s a midfielder who can’t pass.
You’re talking about him like he’s Kante. Why don’t we just play him with Pogba?
Keep ? | | |
Y | Fred | |
| Nemanja Matic | 2 more years on his contract. |
Y | Eduardo Camavinga | I think he’s displace Fred in many games |
Y | Scott McTominay | |
| James Garner | Ready to play in PL, but not at top-4 level. May play cup games? Need not take up a squad place as he is "home grown" and under-21. Only 1 year left on his contract; so I don't see him getting loaned out unless the renews that contract. |
Y | Paul Pogba | I don't see him leaving, because no one will buy him when they can wait a year for his contract to run down. Only 1 year left on his contract. |
| Donny van de Beek | May leave for Real as P/E for Varane; as rumours have it. |
| Hannibal | I don’t see him leaving on loan; but he'd use up a squad place if we kept him to play in cup games. |
Y | Bruno Fernandes | Nailed on |
Y | Juan Mata | |
Sell | Andreas Pereira | Should be sold |
From the outside looking in, this is how I see it too. I feel like if you transform your midfield you can mount a serious title challenge.Fred is a upper-midtable player, McTomimay is a lower-midtable player. We could get away with starting one (preferably Fred) but starting both limits us massively. A midfield 3 of Bruno, McT & Fred has zero ball retention & is easily bypassed.
Great post which i largely agree with. We need to maybe play a more traditional 433 with a playmaker.Pogba can't play consistently in a midfield two. He never has and it's unlikely he ever will. People always try to point to him playing next to Kante for France, completely ignoring the fact that in almost every single game they also play a third central midfielder. Sometimes they actually play in a three, sometimes they nominally play on the wing, but obviously they are still helping the midfield out a hell of a lot more than two defensively lazy out-and-out attackers on the wings like what we do.
Pogba has started 29 games for France since the start of 2018. In that time they've only played two midfielders four times, against the heavyweights of Iceland, Andora, Kazakhstan and Bosnia. And against Iceland (the highest ranked of those four teams at 52nd in the world) France was losing 2-0 with that formation until they bought on a third midfielder and later took Pogba off, after which they got it back to 2-2. Every other single time he's started for France he's had two of Kante, Matuidi, Tolisso, Rabiot, N'zonzi, Ndombele or Sissoko in there with him.
Interestingly, France are much more likely to only play two midfielders when Pogba isn't playing. In the 16 games that he didn't start in during that time there were 9 times that they only used two midfielders. That says a lot IMO. So if even the amazing Kante can't be trusted to cover Pogba by himself in the international arena (where almost all opposition is comfortably weaker than most of the teams we face in the league), why do we put the blame on our current options and think somebody like Rice or Ndidi could handle it?
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Matic is past it. He played for us for 4 seasons now, and in that time he's been good for about 1 season in total. He had a good first half a season, a couple of good months in his second season, a month or two in his third season, and (if I'm being generous) a good month last season. Each season is getting worse.
As each season has gone on Matic seems to drop into the defence more and more. Every midfielder will do this at times, and so they should when a defender pushes up the field or just to give a different option. Fred, McTominay, Pogba all do it, Scholes and Carrick used to do it. However Matic now does it an incredible amount, more than any other midfielder I can think of. Whether that's because he's trying to cover for him 'losing his legs' or if he's doing it for a more tactical reason, it ends up with us completely abandoning the midfield as the one person we have in there is utterly surrounded by opposition players. I remember two photos from 19/20 that show Pogba in midfield by himself with literally seven opposition players closer to him than the nearest Utd player.
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McTominay - what does he bring to the table that would allow him to be an important player in a midfield two? I could perhaps see it in a midfield three if he continued to increase his goal threat and he could try to almost become a Lampard style of player, but obviously we have Bruno already doing that job far better than Scott ever could. But in a midfield two? He's not defensively good enough to be the main defensive midfielder. He's not good enough on the ball to be the playmaker style of midfielder. He doesn't press and get around the field well enough to be the harrier and destroyer type of midfielder. He doesn't really have enough strengths to be one half of two box-to-box midfielders.
Two or three times a season he seems to pull out a great match where he really steps up, like he did in the second half of the EL final. If he did that more often then then it could work. But while it's only a couple of times a season he simply doesn't provide enough. It's up to him to show he can do it more consistently.
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Fred - like Scott, he's not good enough defensively (in terms of positioning and being the last man) to be the main defensive midfielder, and he's not good enough on the ball to be the playmaker. Which is part of our issue, as he ends up playing as our deep-lying playmaker most of the time. Scott definitely isn't good enough so Fred does it with our main McFred combo. Matic doesn't even play in midfield half the time so Fred ends up doing it. Pogba...I don't remember it being the case in the past, but recently when they play together it still ends up being Fred doing the build-up role while Pogba pushes into more attacking areas. Fred is better at that role than some people make out which is why it kind of works, but he obviously shouldn't be the main playmaker for a top team. It ends up highlighting his inconsistent touch when he's receiving the ball from the defence deep in our own half, something that cost us a few times towards the end of the season.
What Fred is certainly good enough at doing is the harrier and destroyer type of role. Other than Kante himself, there aren't many players out there that you could point to as being clearly better than Fred. Especially as he is currently having to combine that role with also being our main playmaker, the question has to be asked as to how much could he potentially improve if we partnered him with somebody to take that latter role and let Fred focus on the aggressive pressing and destroying. Using Kante as an example again, it's no coincidence that his best form for Chelsea has come next to Matic (when he was good) and Jorginho; two players who can be relied on to do their part defensively so Kante can press to his hearts content, while also being better playmakers so can take on that main role for the team (especially Jorginho). In theory at least, we should be looking to use Fred in the same was as Chelsea do Kante, which requires partnering him with the right player. We don't have that type of player at the moment (unless Garner can step up perhaps).
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VDB - He has it all to prove. A very disappointing first season, it's unlikely that he'll end up being good enough but not impossible.
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So in conclusion, I don't see how we can plan ahead with Pogba, Matic, McTominay or VDB in a midfield two. There's a chance McTominay or VDB might develop enough in that role, but for now they can't be relied on. Fred is the only one that might be able to do it now, but to get the proper balance for the team we require his partner to take over the main playmaking duties while also being defensively solid.
That very well maybe the case but the some posters would also tell you that he has been keeping Fabinho out of the team when Fabinho has hardly been regular starter for Brazil in the midfield mostly used as sub so I don't know what to believe.everyone tells me Fred been world class at Copa America
i’m not saying it’s bad but aid workers frequently use the story of our midfield blight to bring some perspective to chechnyan orphans.
i’m not saying it’s bad but aid workers frequently use the story of our midfield blight to bring some perspective to chechnyan orphans.
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Thats not even true though. Well it's maybe true if you play them with Pogba.It only lacks a midfielder who can do both defend and pass the ball. Like these:
May be this guy is the realistic answer:
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Most who want Pogba to be sold (I'm probably in that camp as I don't think he suits a midfield two) want him replaced with somebody else in the midfield, not to just settle with McTominay-Fred.They are shite. I can’t wait for the ones who are desperate to get Pogba gone to embrace McFred for the season.
I reckon by week three they will be blaming Ole.
Problem is we really need two to replace himMost who want Pogba to be sold (I'm probably in that camp as I don't think he suits a midfield two) want him replaced with somebody else in the midfield, not to just settle with McTominay-Fred.
As long as it's the right type of midfielder I don't see why it wouldn't work well. Or at least it should be a big improvement over McTominay-Fred, and then if necessary we can sign another next season to upgrade/compete with Fred.Problem is we really need two to replace him
I don't fancy a midfield of a new DM + Fred either tbh
If you want Pogba then you play him in free role of advanced midfielder alongside no 6 and box to box. Or play him with Matuidi/Rabiot & Kante.Thats not even true though. Well it's maybe true if you play them with Pogba.
But if our plan is to play a DM with Fred then that's not going to be a good enough Midfield either.
Even with Donny I'd have my doubts as I'm not convinced there at all.