How bad can your worst players be and still win the league?

[OleBoiii]

If you have someone like Fergie in charge, then it is possible to win the PL with 2 or even 3 poor/mediocre players in the starting XI. Leicester was an extreme outlier, so I'm not gonna go there...

A decent/good manager can win the league with 1 or 2 such players.

A normal manager can win the the league if there are no holes in the squad. Although it is very rare for such a manager to get into a position like this anyways. It may never have happened as far as I can tell.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

I'll never understand why we measure a collective's performance by the sum of each individual's ability. Some players may not be as good individually but have real chemistry and outperform the sum of their parts and adversely some players are brilliant players but just don't work with those around them.

In terms of whether a team can carry a few bad players/ how bad they can be, there are far more variables such as the position, the way the team play and several other points so it's not a simple "Yes" or "No" answer..

 

[VanKenny]

I like the system, but your gradings are all wrong. You're kidding yourself if you think any of our main players wouldn't at a bare minimum start for a top 5-8 club.

- De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (A-)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (B+)
- Wan Bissaka (B+)
- McTominay (B-)
- Fred (B-)
- Pogba (A-)
- Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (B-)
- Rashford (B+)
- Martial (B-)

Then you have the two new boys

Sancho (B+)
Varane (A-)

We had plenty of league winners over the years who were not stars, but did an effective job when they were asked to. O'Shea, Park, P. Neville, Ole, Hernandez etc. They were all B players.

For me a first 11 needs to have at minimum all B+ players, but you can have have a couple of B- in there if they're next to an A player. So, assuming Varane is still as good as he used to be, we possibly need one of the centre mids upgrading and Martial needs replacing. We also need to get rid of the C players like Matic.



TLDR we need a midfielder and a striker.

My ratings may be a bit to harsh but yours are way too gentle. Maybe a happy medium between the two would be more accurate.



Btw i dont think Varane or Luke Shaw are A- level, especially not Varane, but that may change if he recovers his old form. I think there are a few better players on their position right now on the premier league.

 

[11101]

My ratings may be a bit to harsh but yours are way too gentle. Maybe a happy medium between the two would be more accurate.



Btw i dont think Varane or Luke Shaw are A- level, especially not Varane, but that may change if he recovers his old form. I think there are a few better players on their position right now on the premier league.

Hard to say before hes kicked a ball but an on form Varane is the best defender in the league.

 

[VanKenny]

Hard to say before hes kicked a ball but an on form Varane is the best defender in the league.

Dont think so, he never reached Van Dijk level, and another 3-4 names come to mind that could rival top Varane. Ruben Dias last season for starters showed a higher level than Varane ever did IMO.

 

[Bondi77]

I think Fergie would be able to answer that question

 

[Litch]

I think Chelsea last year are a perfect example. They had players that looked like their careers where over and massive question marks about the signings. Top manager takes over mid season and the very same players then look different, and do on to win the CL. That's the significance of have a great manager more so than simply the quality of the players....

 

[RedDevilzFox]

This very much so and then you'll get the "yeah but now it's different" in response.

Ever since Fergie left our players ability has always been judged on how much people like the manager. Same season after season.

Its insane what has happened to Man Utd post fergie, scandalous really. Excuses after excuses, laundry list of them. Its as if Chelsea, Liverpool, City, Lester have fielded world beaters in every position and have not had passengers at all while they were out winning titles. But no, we have not spent enough money so far, need another whateverthefeck millions to install a worldie in every position before we can realistically expect to win a major title. Stupid dumb threads like this spawn up like routine.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

How bad can your worst players be and still win the league?
Not as bad as Fred.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

One thing people have to realize is that winning the league isn't about beating the best teams, it's about beating the teams you're supposed to beat. United can lose twice to City, Liverpool and Chelsea, but "if" they beat the other 16 teams home and away they would end the season with 96 points. So we can't have games like the other day where we drop points to a team that will likely be closer to relegation than midtable. And to beat these lower teams we don't have to play our best 11 week in and week out. SAF never did. It's about using the entire squad and using it correctly. Unfortunately vs Southampton Ole made too many mistakes. The team on the field still should've been good enough to win, but we can't have more f*uck ups like that and expect to challenge for the title...

 

[redrobed]

Arsenal won the league back in the late 90’s/early 00’s I think so that would be a very good indication.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

Schmeichel
Simpson Huth Morgan Fuchs
Mahrez Kante Drinkwater Albrighton
Okazaki Vardy

With regular players: Ulloa Schlupp, King, Gray

So your worst player can be pretty bad as long as you can mold the team so they arent exposed in their weaknesses and are used in their strenghts...

 

[abundance]

Ah yes, lump an entire nationality in together. Excellent work.

Fair enough.
Please complete our automated survey.

#001 Are you Brit? Y / N
#002 Is Varane the best CB in PL? Y / N

 

[justsomebloke]

Most United fans seem to think our worst 3 or 4 players are worse than their equivalent at most top half clubs. I found myself thinking this at the weekend. Southampton are one of the favourites for relegation but is Martial really any better as a striker than the two who played against us? Would Matic start ahead of Romeu? And so on.

So the question is, can a team win the league with two or three regular starters that might struggle to get a game at any of the other clubs in the top half of the table? Or are the worst players at a club that’s in a title race good enough to start for all but the best 4 or 5 teams in the league?

Talking starting XI only. Obviously a squad can include an experienced journey-man or two, with some yong and lernin kids making up numbers.

My personal opinion is that it’s the really top players in any given team that influence the eventual league position. If you’ve got a few legitimate world class stars then you can accommodate a similar number of water carriers without doing much damage to your league campaign.

Discuss.

I don't think Southampton is by any stretch one of the favorites for relegation. On the contrary, that would I think count as a very big surprise. But of course, they're not a top team either, and your basic point stands.

I don't agree with your last point. It might have been true 15 years ago, but it's not now - none of the other top teams have many (if any) water carriers. Chelsea and City certainly don't. Liverpool arguably has a Wijnaldum-shaped gap in the midfield if they don't fill it before the window closes, and perhaps whoever partners VvD in central midfield isn't absolutely top notch (although still very good), but otherwise they're top quality all around.

 

[abundance]

Yeah, played every minute of every game when France won the World Cup, and played virtually every minute he's been available in 4 Champions League wins. Shit player, that.

Being a good player doesn't necessarily imply being the best CB of a whole league.
Neither being better than Kimbempe Rami and Umtiti does.

 

[Kag]

In the context of United, I think we can win a title while starting Wan-Bissaka at right back for most of the season. That’s my bar when I look at our current first team.

In a wider context, plenty of middling players have won league titles and this will always be the case. What these teams tend to do well is cover the weaknesses of said players. Again, if we refer back to United, I think it’s possible to do well with one of McTominay or Fred in midfield. But not both. Your two worst players in the eleven can’t be partnering each other in central midfield.

 

[11101]

Being a good player doesn't necessarily imply being the best CB of a whole league.
Neither being better than Kimbempe Rami and Umtiti does.

Let's assume that Varane turns up in his best form, well rested and motivated. Who is better?

Van Dijk? Maybe, but he's coming off a huge injury and has roughly 2 years of track record to back him up.
Dias? Same as above, but with only 1 year track record and in a stacked team.

Varane has been playing at the very top level of football for nearly 10 years now.

 

[giorno]

Let's assume that Varane turns up in his best form, well rested and motivated. Who is better?

Van Dijk? Maybe, but he's coming off a huge injury and has roughly 2 years of track record to back him up.
Dias? Same as above, but with only 1 year track record and in a stacked team.

Varane has been playing at the very top level of football for nearly 10 years now.

Varane has never come anywhere near the level of VvD

But sure, given the context, he could very well turn out to be the best CB in the league. He's 28 too, that's usually when CBs hit their prime so he could get better than he ever was for us

He's one of the best CBs in the world, for sure

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

We (as well as other teams), have won plenty with sub-par players in the side. I don't think quality is the problem, it's something else that's stopping us from collecting what should be easy points.

I can't quite make up my mind if it's an issue with motivation, belief determination or something else. There are games where we just don't turn up, and it's usually the games where it should be an easy win; home games, games against teams we beat comprehensively in recently and against teams going through bad results. It's like our players think they just have to turn up, go through the motions and collect the points.

 

[Sandikan]

You also need a WC management team which knows what they are doing.

What, like Ranieri the other season?

 

[Someone]

The short answer is yes, but It'll always depend on who's your competition. Few things to consider:

• Are you competing with clubs with better starting 11?
• Who will have better luck with injuries?
• Who has the better manager?
• Will our top players perform at high standards?

Fergie certainly won a lot of trophies with average players in the starting 11, but then that was fergie.

 

[Zen86]

You don’t need a first XI made up of WC players, but the ones who aren’t need to be dependable. Basically players who can work hard, do a job, and not f*** it up. Our lesser players have been anything but in recent times.

 

[edcunited1878]

These bad players aren't necessarily bad, just are not as talented. Most importantly thing they do is do what is required to help their team get results. As in don't be a complete liability.

For example, Cleverley was never the most talented of the bunch, however he kept it neat and kept it going. Never went outside of his main duties where it exposed him and the team. Then the players that had the skill and performance levels to get you those results, those are who wins you matches and titles.

Plus how you're setup and playing is based on a manager and coaches. But you still need enough top talent to win.

I always like to reference Leicester because they get overlooked a lot. They had 3 of the best players in the league in Vardy, Mahrez, and Kante. Schmeichel in goal was good. Their fullbacks worked hard and were dependable going forward. Combine Okazaki, Drinkwater, and the two CBs with a lower defensive setup and pressing/closing down...with no Europe, then that was their success. Had a couple different players of the bench to be more direct but still same principles.

 

[VanKenny]

Just for entertaining purposes, i decided to use that rating system to grade the best club team ive ever seen, Barcelona 2010-2011, lets see what we get:

-Valdes (B+)
- Dani Alves (A+)
- Puyol (A-)
- Pique (A-)
- Abidal (B+ or A-, struggling with this one)
- Busquets (A-)
- Xavi (S)
- Iniesta (S)
- Messi (S)
- Villa (A+)
- Pedro (B+)




Kind of ridiculous.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

What, like Ranieri the other season?

Yes.

 

[Zaphod2319]

Another thread were United fans think Bruno is better than De Bruyne.

 

[giorno]

I always like to reference Leicester because they get overlooked a lot. They had 3 of the best players in the league in Vardy, Mahrez, and Kante. Schmeichel in goal was good. Their fullbacks worked hard and were dependable going forward. Combine Okazaki, Drinkwater, and the two CBs with a lower defensive setup and pressing/closing down...with no Europe, then that was their success. Had a couple different players of the bench to be more direct but still same principles.

Helps that the league was shite that season. PL had been weak for years before then, but that was the nadir

 

[edcunited1878]

Helps that the league was shite that season. PL had been weak for years before then, but that was the nadir

That's fine, but they were still a good team with 3 top players in the league. Their setup, pressing/closing down, and counter attack was effective. Everything went their way, but that's always needed to a certain degree if you're going to win the PL.

 

[Lebo]

Another thread were United fans think Bruno is better than De Bruyne.

Bruno has 43 premier league goals and De Bruyne has 67. Considering the amount of seasons De Bruyne played in EPL, its had to fault people who rate Bruno higher because statistically he is better. Personally I don’t value stats that much especially for midfielders otherwise I would have to rate Lampard as the greatest midfielder of all time.

 

[The Brown Bull]

A great manager may win the league with average players but an average manager won’t win the league even with great players.
We have an average manager.

 

[Green_Red]

Lest divide it by tiers (relative to their position):

S: Best in history
A+: Best in the world
A-: Best in the league
B+: Starter for top 4 club
B-: Starter for 8-5 club
C+: Slightly higher than mediocre relative to the league (squad player for any top 8 club)
C-: Mediocre



To win the league, id say you can get away with 2-3 C+ players, as long as you have top quality on the other positions. To use United's last game's starting XI as an example:

-De Gea (B-)
- Shaw (B+)
- Maguire (B+)
- Lindelof (C+)
- Wan Bissaka (B+)
- Matic (C+)
- Fred (C+)
- Pogba (B+)
-Bruno Fernandes (A-)
- Greenwood (C+)
- Martial (C+)




Of course i just pulled all of this out of my bottom so take it as you will

How can Greenwood, Fred and Lindelof be C+ when your criteria for B+ is starter for a top 4 club and we finished 2nd last season with those three in the starting lineup loads. I had high hopes for your post until I read your scorecard

 

[bosnian_red]

Your worst players have to be in supporting roles, not key roles. Your worst players also have to have qualities that you can make the most of and is still beneficial while negating their weaknesses.

Liverpool with Klopp had a "weak" midfield 3. Except they all had exceptional work rate and did very well to cover defensively and press, and were at least safe on the ball. Their style though meant all their creativity came from the flanks and they didn't really need much from the middle. Their build up didn't come from their midfielders centrally, but from TAA and Robertson. So the way they played, their weak players were all they needed as their strengths lined up with what was asked of them.

Uniteds worst players are our midfield duo (and striker with how Martial has been). Our play relies on our midfield duo building up from deep and being able to find our creative players further up the pitch. Fred and McTominay are incapable if building up from deep, or running with the ball through the lines. So we put our worst players in relatively key positions, and ask them to do things they are no comfortable doing. Which is why it's a problem for us. Or when Matic plays there, he's much better with the build up and has good moments but also his legs are gone and he can't cover space as well or press all that well. Fred and McTominay also aren't the best positionally so we have gaps that appear frequently. Also they are sloppy and have frequent giveaways so we put ourselves under pressure and make our life harder.

United in 07/08 had a great team all around - apart from right back. Except the way we played, we had Evra overlap constantly and so much creativity and ball progression come from Giggs/Carrick/Scholes/Rooney that it didn't matter that Wes Brown wasn't some all star player. He was solid defensively, would occasionally overlap but for the most part be more cautious, and gave a balance to Evra on the other side or Ronaldo ahead of him being so attack minded.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Players are only as good as the system, I remember a few of our own that were bang average but under Sir Alex we managed to look really solid.

 

[VanKenny]

How can Greenwood, Fred and Lindelof be C+ when your criteria for B+ is starter for a top 4 club and we finished 2nd last season with those three in the starting lineup loads. I had high hopes for your post until I read your scorecard

Starting for a top 4 club doesnt automatically makes you a B+ player. It means the club has a poor squad management. The criteria means general quality, as in "yeah thats a top 4 club quality of player".


Leicester won it with a bunch of C+ and C- player as well, there are always exceptions to the rule.

 

[SirReginald]

It is an utter shambles of a list.

Shaw and Davies are the top 2 left backs in the world right now. B+

If Cole and Evra are a metric for A+ Then sadly the “best in the world” are still A-. Obviously still a great rating but when your fullback comparison list isn’t strong, any title for best in the world isn’t that great.

 

[UweBein]

Schmeichel
Simpson Huth Morgan Fuchs
Mahrez Kante Drinkwater Albrighton
Okazaki Vardy

With regular players: Ulloa Schlupp, King, Gray

So your worst player can be pretty bad as long as you can mold the team so they arent exposed in their weaknesses and are used in their strenghts...

The trouble with that comparison is that they had players like Mahrez, Vardy and Kante who performed on the highest possible level (not on an individual, but on an absolute scale).
I am not sure that you will get that kind of output even from your star players. The three of them had an insane season.

In addition to that, some of the other players like Huth, Morgan, Drinkwater, Albrighton probably played their best season of their careers.

 

[LoneStar]

A great manager may win the league with average players but an average manager won’t win the league even with great players.
We have an average manager.

Yeah. Unfortunately this. A good manager can hide some deficiencies of the squad by changing tactics and making adjustments.

Having said that, the 'easiest' way to achieve success is to just try signing as many world class players as possible - look at the Galactico model. Also has the added benefit of attracting the best managers and talent if you have such players.