I think the true second team currently lacks goals, we just have no forwards. At a guess I'd estimate 7th to 10th position, because we'd still be solid enough in defence and midfield, and we should beat the teams from the bottom up to those on the fringes of Europe.
How bad is our second team really?
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I thought Heaton looked reasonable against Charlton, his distribution was ok, he came for crosses against their gigantic team and he made the saves he should. I wouldn't consider him a problem as a second keeper.
And finished 2nd and 3rd in the league.
I find it astonishing. Yes Ole played simple counter attacking football and it covered some technical deficiencies these players have but still.
Midfield without Eriksen and Casemiro lacks so much creativity to break teams down it's almost unbelievable.
Hopefully we find some cheaper players in the summer to strengthen our bench.
We are talking about the strength of the backups. We haven't seen Butland or Wout play for us so can't judge them yet.
McTom the biggest issue in your second team (unless he plays one of those 5-in-a-season blinders) - that midfield could get overrun
I actually think in terms of talent our second team is quite good. Just not well drilled.
Our second teams are full of internationals. They can't be that bad.
Our second teams are full of internationals. They can't be that bad.
This, and the amount of people who don't even think about it like this is staggering.
Our second team won, didn't they? I think some people are too harsh...
its the midfield that worries me
if either if Casmiro or Eriksen are out we're gonna struggle
if either if Casmiro or Eriksen are out we're gonna struggle
17th more like
As a collective 11 it's awful, a handful of them can do a job surrounded by better players though
Ole finished 3rd and 2nd with 5 of our "second team" players, it's not that bad. We need Sancho back soon to have more options upfront.
They're not as bad as they're made out to be but they do leave a lot to be desired. The difference in quality from the first team is quite telling and they're often very disjointed and left relying on individual brilliance, or two players linking up well, rather than team coherence to win.
Mctominay is a clear weakness clarified by his continual sideway ,backwards passing. You would think its " pass the hand grenade" when he is on the ball. Most worrying is watch the chance for Fraser , Charlton and McT lets him run by him and makes no attempt to chase him down. Martinez was twice a far from the ball and made more effort to block. If this is De Bruyne and its in the back of the net. After all this time Mctominay doesn't naturally smell danger.
This. Incredible that we've actually managed to shift out that many players from the starting eleven in such a short period of time.
I haven't got anything negative to say about their attitude, and I respect quite a few of them for the continuous shite they have had to recieve. None of them have shown the slightest of disrespect to the club or fans despite being criticised most of their time here. But now it's just more obvious than ever, that they haven't been able to live up to the task of taking us to the next level.
Also have to give credit to the manager and the people above him, for being able to bring in so many influential players and integrate them this fast.
Nutshell.
It's not terrible but not anywhere near as strong as a big club could want although it is a positive how quickly some of those players have gone from being regulars to part of the 2nd team and how seamless that transition has been. The other issue with the 2nd team now though is that stylistically it's so different from the first 11 that Ten Hag can't play the same way.
The back up centre backs have no pace so the team has to play deeper when they play, the back up full backs are really limited going forward which reduces the options with the ball and the starting midfield of Casemiro and Eriksen are positionally smart and quality in possession while Fred and McTominay are 2 players who lack quality with the ball but give energy by running all over the place rather than holding a position. The forward line listed there isn't great (Sancho should be good but hasn't been thus far while Garnacho is very exciting but also very young) but as long as Ten Hag is subtle with it, maybe bringing one of those 3 in from time to time, rather than making wholesale changes then it should be good enough to get results against most sides. He's got no choice really because we have so many games coming up that he's going to have to use his squad.
The back up centre backs have no pace so the team has to play deeper when they play, the back up full backs are really limited going forward which reduces the options with the ball and the starting midfield of Casemiro and Eriksen are positionally smart and quality in possession while Fred and McTominay are 2 players who lack quality with the ball but give energy by running all over the place rather than holding a position. The forward line listed there isn't great (Sancho should be good but hasn't been thus far while Garnacho is very exciting but also very young) but as long as Ten Hag is subtle with it, maybe bringing one of those 3 in from time to time, rather than making wholesale changes then it should be good enough to get results against most sides. He's got no choice really because we have so many games coming up that he's going to have to use his squad.
Dreadful spine. Would finish mid-table at best.
Maguire, VDB are like playing with a man down.
McT has one decent game in 10.
AWB is limited.
Heaton is past it.
I think TH comments on the club previously buying lots of players who havent been good enough speaks volumes. The second team would probably be anywhere from 7th to 12th if played as our first team, and thats nowhere near good enough.
They also disintergrated the season after. It wasnt going to last. Maybe the empty stadia helped a bit as mistakes wouldnt get the crowd on their backs.
Sorry, but this is a rediculous comment.
Where would you expect a second team to finish? Top four?
That midfield is absolutely terrible. Needs at least one creator. Hope in the summer we address it by shipping VDB out and getting in a creative attacking midfielder. Or put Eriksen there and get an upgrade on him.
So if you wrote it out as Heaton, AWB, Lindelof, Maguire, Malacia, McTominay, Fred, Sancho, VDB, Garnacho and Weghorst it looks quite bad but a few tweaks through the summer and it isn’t as bad as you may think.
It’s clear we need a centre forward, a De Jong/Bellingham type midfielder next to Casemiro and a young centre back that’s preferably left sided and I think that’s achievable in the summer if we’re clever although by “we’re” I mean if ETH is clever as last summer was the best we’ve had in some time transfer wise.
With Kane only having a year left it makes sense to go after him if we get top four and maybe win a cup as it’ll show we’re on the way back up and ready to challenge for the top trophies if Kane were to join, the way Kane now plays too is perfect for ETH and the players we already have in the other forward roles.
Bringing in De Jong or Bellingham as a partner to Casemiro would be as transformative as bringing in Casemiro himself, both De Jong and Bellingham can pass brilliantly but also have the engine to go box to box and impact both ends of the pitch.
It’s clear Varane and Martinez are first choice so a young centre back that could be built up over time alongside experienced players should be the target so Evan Ndicka is perfect, he’s young and left sided but also on a free so moving Jones and Bailly on as well as one of Maguire or Lindelof balances it out.
That would leave us a back up squad of Heaton, AWB/Laird, Maguire/Lindelof, Ndicka, Malacia, McTominay/Fred, Eriksen, Sancho/Pellestri, VDB/Diallo, Garnacho/Elanga and Martial although I’d be happy with Sancho being used as a 10 back up to Fernandes and Pellestri or Diallo as back up to Antony then moving VDB on and doing the same with Elanga.
It’s clear we need a centre forward, a De Jong/Bellingham type midfielder next to Casemiro and a young centre back that’s preferably left sided and I think that’s achievable in the summer if we’re clever although by “we’re” I mean if ETH is clever as last summer was the best we’ve had in some time transfer wise.
With Kane only having a year left it makes sense to go after him if we get top four and maybe win a cup as it’ll show we’re on the way back up and ready to challenge for the top trophies if Kane were to join, the way Kane now plays too is perfect for ETH and the players we already have in the other forward roles.
Bringing in De Jong or Bellingham as a partner to Casemiro would be as transformative as bringing in Casemiro himself, both De Jong and Bellingham can pass brilliantly but also have the engine to go box to box and impact both ends of the pitch.
It’s clear Varane and Martinez are first choice so a young centre back that could be built up over time alongside experienced players should be the target so Evan Ndicka is perfect, he’s young and left sided but also on a free so moving Jones and Bailly on as well as one of Maguire or Lindelof balances it out.
That would leave us a back up squad of Heaton, AWB/Laird, Maguire/Lindelof, Ndicka, Malacia, McTominay/Fred, Eriksen, Sancho/Pellestri, VDB/Diallo, Garnacho/Elanga and Martial although I’d be happy with Sancho being used as a 10 back up to Fernandes and Pellestri or Diallo as back up to Antony then moving VDB on and doing the same with Elanga.
Level
GK: Heaton - Lower half EPL table club
RB: AWB - Lower half EPL table club
CB: Lindelof - mid EPL table club
CB: Maguire - mid EPL table club
LB - Malacia - mid EPL table club
DM: McT - Lower half EPL table club
B2B: Fred - mid EPL table club
AM: VDB - Lower half EPL table club
RW: Sancho -useless as he's unavailable
STK: Weghorst - Lower half EPL table club
LW: Garnacho -mid EPL table club
However things change when you see things from the perspective of whether they fit in ETH's game. Only the ones with their name in bold currently do.
GK: Heaton - Lower half EPL table club
RB: AWB - Lower half EPL table club
CB: Lindelof - mid EPL table club
CB: Maguire - mid EPL table club
LB - Malacia - mid EPL table club
DM: McT - Lower half EPL table club
B2B: Fred - mid EPL table club
AM: VDB - Lower half EPL table club
RW: Sancho -useless as he's unavailable
STK: Weghorst - Lower half EPL table club
LW: Garnacho -mid EPL table club
However things change when you see things from the perspective of whether they fit in ETH's game. Only the ones with their name in bold currently do.
That's not how football works. A manager comes in, he drills the team to a certain style of football up until the manager's game becomes theirs. Those who fit the system will get better while those who do not will have their morale hit so much that ultimately all they would want to do is leave. That's why when a new manager comes in you usually see a huge change in personnel irrespective if the guy is a genius (ex SAF) or, well, Ole.
ETH can't simply walk in with a smile on his face and tell guys to simply take their vitamins, bring cookies to SAF and to allow themselves to enjoy the game with no bother about tactics. Thus what 'worked' under Ole (0 trophies after over 420m spent) won't necessarily work under ETH.
Collectively? Pretty awful, and not an 11 I would ever like to see.
As far as players that can step in? Yes, some are fine, but overall we need better quality back-up's in quite a few areas. The likes of AWB and Maguire, for example, are decent players, but clearly don't fit the profile that ETH wants.
As far as players that can step in? Yes, some are fine, but overall we need better quality back-up's in quite a few areas. The likes of AWB and Maguire, for example, are decent players, but clearly don't fit the profile that ETH wants.
That selection is not far off from an Ole 1st team selection
I think maybe lower than that. Compare it to Villa's first XI for example - they have better players in many positions (goal, left back, most of the midfield, striker) and generally roughly equivalent ones in the remainder.
That being said, if Weghorst pans out reasonably well, we now have backup options for most positions who can play without really weakening the team too much. The obvious exception is the midfield, particularly in Casemiro's and Bruno's positions. As well as goal, of course.
When they played together with De Gea, Shaw, Rashford and Bruno, rather than with Heaton, Malacia, Garnacho and VdB. So that really doesn't say very much.
as southampton showed last night, it's not the size of the dog that counts, it's the size of the fight in the dog.
even if our second string players don't have the technical chops, they should still be able to run harder, win more second ball, hassle and chase better than most oppositions. granted, we might not win too many games with that line up, but it's good enough not to lose against most teams.
even if our second string players don't have the technical chops, they should still be able to run harder, win more second ball, hassle and chase better than most oppositions. granted, we might not win too many games with that line up, but it's good enough not to lose against most teams.
I agree. This is the one position where we have no credible backup to the first choice (Casemiro), and where it must be expected that the performance of the team as a whole will be significantly degraded if the first choice doesn't play.
If we're considering them as starters, I think Heaton must be considered replacement level - not good enough to be first choice even for a relegation-level PL club.
I know that boat has sailed, but Enzo Fernandez straight from River plate for about the same we could have sold Mctominay for would have been in my opinion a good move. He could have done a few positions in midfield in this now apparent hectic period of fixtures coming up. Wish there was a similar standard of player available now that floats Ten hag boat.
Pellestri could cover that team as well. Amad, hopefully returns after a good loan spell, with a few other youngsters around as well. Not bad, especially not with a good manager like EtH.
Right... half the ones who got us into Europa finals and 2nd in the PL.
Never knew 2nd in PL is same standard as League one.
We learn everyday...
even if the logic might not be there.You have a strong second XI, obviously not as strong as City’s but it is definitely up there. McFred midfield was winning away at the Etihad. Maguire and Lindelof is a solid CB partnership. The only issue I have with it is Sancho. Will he come back from his time off in a better shape? I should hope so. Malacia and AWB are good options to have.
Just look at this thing of beauty.
It has to be the most expensively assembled "second team" in the world. In any sport... And this by including a third choice goalie, a forward on loan, an academy graduate and a teenager who cost peanuts.
Let that sink in. That's literally 375 million Euros of investment right there. All for a team that can only sit back, soak up pressure and hit on the counter. In the age of pressing, high lines, possession-based midfields and attacking FBs. But they finished second or something.
They are so good that the new guy had to splash more than 200 million in one go to implement his vision, and he's not even halfway there yet. Imagine that, not so long ago, we were actually discussing how close we were to challenge Pep and Klopp with an axis that consisted of Maguire-Lindelof & Fred-McT. Well, not all of us, but there's no need to get there.
I will trust ETH's judgement. He has already done concessions, in terms of style, to manage the squad he inherited. But there's so much he can do with the hand he was dealt. If he salvages Sancho's United career and turns Garnacho into a proper first-team option so soon, i'll be more than happy with him.
But, yeah, hats off to Ed Woodward. A fine example of how you can be given a free rein with zero accountability, if you are a good arse licker who advises the money men on how they can buy an asset and make money from it without paying a dime. A true magician was our Ed. And that team proves it.
It has to be the most expensively assembled "second team" in the world. In any sport... And this by including a third choice goalie, a forward on loan, an academy graduate and a teenager who cost peanuts.
Let that sink in. That's literally 375 million Euros of investment right there. All for a team that can only sit back, soak up pressure and hit on the counter. In the age of pressing, high lines, possession-based midfields and attacking FBs. But they finished second or something.
They are so good that the new guy had to splash more than 200 million in one go to implement his vision, and he's not even halfway there yet. Imagine that, not so long ago, we were actually discussing how close we were to challenge Pep and Klopp with an axis that consisted of Maguire-Lindelof & Fred-McT. Well, not all of us, but there's no need to get there.
I will trust ETH's judgement. He has already done concessions, in terms of style, to manage the squad he inherited. But there's so much he can do with the hand he was dealt. If he salvages Sancho's United career and turns Garnacho into a proper first-team option so soon, i'll be more than happy with him.
But, yeah, hats off to Ed Woodward. A fine example of how you can be given a free rein with zero accountability, if you are a good arse licker who advises the money men on how they can buy an asset and make money from it without paying a dime. A true magician was our Ed. And that team proves it.