Even then, compared to Fowler, Sheringham & Cole... It's mental, really. I wonder what Kane's mins per G/A are.
How close is Aguero to Henry/Shearer?
- Thread starter Rozay
- Start date
100 mins per G+A for Kane. 122 goals and 18 assists as per Premier league site, 14095 mins in PL according to transfermarkt.
Dixie Dean, best ever striker in UK, what was it thirty nine hat-tricks! (according to MOTD 2)
Thanks. In its own right that's pretty damn amazing, but we'll have to see if he falls off at any point as he's still young.
It's great considering he started as a young player, playing for not so strong team.
I think henrys better but i think there were times Aguero has been the player of the season but wrongly not awarded it.
Perhaps, but he never was an obvious choice rather than one of the few outstanding ones. Neither was he truly a Ballon d’Or competitor (even if we discount Messi and Ronaldo). Henry was both.
Well Rooney has a huge number of assists to his name too. Aguero is a far better CF than Rooney, no doubt about that, but Rooney was a better overall player. I mean he has the 2nd highest number of goals and assists, something that will take some doing.Shamelessly stolen from reddit. The top 10 players of the Premier League era when it comes to goals/assists.
Henry & Aguero are absolute freaks when you look at that.
Aguero is 48 goals behind Rooney with 262 less appearances
As an out and out CF, I'd say in terms of pure quality Aguero is probably level with Shearer who I'd say was behind Henry.
Tbf, Rooney played in the Prem for twice as many seasons (16 to 7.5), in over twice as many games (491 to 229) and for over twice as many minutes (38,020 to 17,044). If you include Agüero's numbers for Atlético, Rooney's huge number of assists gets pulverized and Shearer doesn't seem so far ahead anymore either.
Agüero in La Liga and Premier League combined:
404 games, 234 goals, 76 assists, 310 goals + assists, 30,271 minutes, 97 minutes per g+a
Now, I'm not debating which player was better and if their positions or skillsets are comparable, but purely down to goal and assist efficiency, Agüero is clearly ahead.
Respectfully, I'd argue that all those who look at Aguero's numbers and use his lower number of assists to suggest he's not as complete a player as some of the others are overlooking one fundamentally important mathematical fact, which is the number of appearances
Aguero has produced 41 assists in 229 games which is one per 5.58 games. Rooney has 103 assists from 491 games, so one every 4.77 games. Suddenly the difference between them is not so huge. Lampard with 102 assists, the third highest total assists in that table, is only one assist every 5.97 games. Even Giggs, the finest winger to ever grace the premier league IMO, is only one per 3.9 games. But none of those players get close on goals per minute to Aguero, whilst not being far ahead on assists per appearance
By any statistical measure, if one is taking appearances into account, henry and aguero are there in a class of their own. They stand out like a sore thumb in that list as playing far fewer times, with 229 & 258 appearances compared to the next highest in fowler at 379 whilst everyone else in the table has 400+ appearances, hence the strike rates being so incredible
Of course it's not only stats because you then get onto big game goals - we all know Aguero's record against the top 6
Interestingly, all the discussions over best PL striker seem to be about Aguero, Shearer & Henry. Why is Andy Cole never mentioned ? He's third in the table with 187 league goals which is not far off 1 in 2, so a better strike record than anyone aside from those three. I remember him as being a true PL goalscoring legend, but he's rarely spoken about in any context these days - why is that ?
One interesting thing about bringing appearances into account is also the fact that Aguero spent the absolute prime of his career here, i.e, the period where he would be the most efficient, he joined City when he was 23 (entering his prime) and will probably leave this league before he's totally washed up. During his time at Atletico he had 106 goals and 6 assists in 274 matches (this is for all competitions) covering his stats from the age of 18-23. If you add those to the stats in the table listed here, it becomes 313 G+A in 503 apps (I know the Atletico stats are not league only, while those of his time at City are league only but it gives a general idea). If you compare this to Rooney now it is quite similar, 311 G+A in 493 apps.
Since Rooney spent his career from age 16-32 here, i.e, his developing years and decline years all in the PL, its no wonder his stats are skewed when comparing it to someone who has spent only their prime here. The same principle would apply to Giggs, Lampard, Shearer and so on. On the other hand Henry is another one who basically spent only his prime in the PL, age 22-30 and not his formative and decline years. So this is something to bear in mind when comparing the mins per goal/assist ratio of foreign imports with those who spent their entire career here.
Edit : Source- https://www.fctables.com/players/sergio-aguero-312350/
You should also consider that Agüero's games in PL were all pretty much at his peak, while Rooney and the likes of Giggs and Lampard spend many years here before and after their respective peaks, which hugely boosted their appearance record, but seriously damaged their GPG/APG.
edit: what @King7Eric said.
My source was https://www.transfermarkt.com/sergio-aguero/leistungsdaten/spieler/26399/plus/0?saison=ges
It states 175 games, 74 goals, 29 assists, 13,227 minutes in La Liga.
If you want to include his last (and only recorded on tm) season for Independiente (18 goals in 36 games, no assists given), he would surpass Shearer with 328 g+a in 440 games. I would find that a bit tenuous due to the strength of the league though.
It is true that the relative scoring rates of Agüero and Henry are skewed in their favour due to them arriving late and leaving early (Henry), but the same can be said for the total numbers for those that spent their whole career in the Prem. However, Agüero's numbers in La Liga show that he has had a remarkable scoring rate in a top 3 league even if you include his early years and it helps to debunk the argument that Rooney was a better player due to his 'huge number of assists', while it is also worth noting that Agüero mostly played as a second striker to Torres/Forlán in Spain – an argument that has been made for Rooney.
Augero is better Shearer was just a brute
Not sure how you can compare him to Rooney when Rooney was played all over the place while Aguero is a pure striker. Rooney has played a a winger and No 10 so his stats clearly reflect that.
On paper, these seem like great points and definitely worth thinking about. But having had a look at the stats, it makes for interesting reading
Rooney would appear to have been the same age at the start of the 08/9 season as Aguero was when he joined us
https://www.premierleague.com/players/2064/Wayne-Rooney/overview
Looking at the 8 seasons from 08.9 for Rooney, its
08/9 12 goals in 30 apps
09/10 26 in 32
10/11 11 in 28
11/12 27 in 34
12/13 12 in 27
13/14 17 in 29
14/5 12 in 33
15/16 8 in 28
That's 125 goals in 241 apps at 1.93 apps per goal
What really struck me in those stats is just 2 seasons with more than 20 goals (tbf, both were significantly more than 20) then next best haul is 17, then just 12 (three times). In fact 17 goals is his 3rd best season at any age, not just the peak yrs above but he does have 14 and 16 goal hauls in the two seasons prior to the table above
Now 1 goal in just under every 2 appearances is still exceptional for an 8 season view, but again just shows how incredible Aguero is to make those stats look less impressive
For Aguero, his 8 seasons at the same age as Rooney in the list above
https://www.premierleague.com/players/4328/Sergio-Agüero/overview
11/12 23 in 34
12/13 12 in 30
13/14 17 in 23
14/15 26 in 33
15/16 24 in 30
16/17 20 in 31
17/18 21 in 25
18/19 17 in 23
160 goals in 229 appearances at 1.43 games per goal
So aside from this season where he should easily score another 3 to get him over the 20 mark, he has just 2 seasons with less than 20 goals and a haul of 17 goals is his 2nd worse ever season. When he scored 17 in 13/14, it was from just 23 appearances, so one goal ever 1.35 games
What this really demonstrates is Aguero's absolutely incredible consistency under different managers, different systems, etc. This is a shy guy who barely speaks English, is hardly in the country of his dreams, keeps his head down, never involved in controversy or front page headlines - it really is very impressive
I think there is merit in the arguments in the posts above, but I don't think that detracts from the fact Aguero has had 8 seasons here and he has been magnificent from almost start to finish
He's still only 30 years old. Feels like he's been around forever.
Aguero only played one season with Torres and I'm pretty sure it used to be Forlan who was SS to Aguero and not the other way around. Anyway I'm not for a minute saying Aguero's record is anything other than phenomenal. Also, I don't think how you can debunk the argument that Rooney is better than Aguero by comparing goals and assists of a guy who played a CF for the bulk of his career to someone who only played that position for half of his career at best. In fact I'd say 2009-12 is the only period Rooney consistently played as a CF and even then in not all matches. If anything the comparison of their G+A ratio is a testament to how good Rooney was to be getting these numbers despite being played in a slightly withdrawn role.
Again this is not a knock on how brilliant a CF Aguero is, but for me Rooney was an overall better player.
I don't think anyone can argue this point. But comparing Rooney and Aguero is comparing two different kinds of players. Aguero is an out and out CF, Rooney was more of a SS.
Agreed. Hence why Henry and Shearer are the two now most compared to Aguero
How do incidents like the contract talk shenanigans affect a United fan's view of Rooney ? I was having a debate with my godson yesterday at the match about city's greatest ever players, funnily enough talking up aguero just moments before he scored his first. I'm 48 and had an ST for 30 yrs, he's 16 and his 'lowpoint' was city finishing 8th.....................mine was accepting stockport were our derby rivals............he doesn't know how lucky he is
For me, best city player of all time has to be aguero or silva with Kompany in the conversation for his overall contribution to the club and zabaleta my favourite city player despite not being close to our best player. My godson asked about toure and I dismissed him out of hand solely for his off the field behaviour, which has some similarities to rooney. Is that still a big deal for united fans or all forgotten ?
Forgive me mate but I had to laugh at that.
Regarding Rooney, well if you frequent this forum long enough, you'll find many haven't forgiven Rooney for his contract shenanigans and the alleged flirting with City and hence there will be many who won't even consider him a Utd legend. For me personally, I look back more fondly at his on pitch performances rather than his contract stand offs. I guess I'm able to separate the player from the man. That's why my views on Keane, Giggs, Rooney, Neville etc aren't really affected by what they say or do away from the football field. I consider all of them bigger legends than someone like Ronaldo who gave his best years to Madrid, not to us. So for me, his contract issue and stuff are long forgotten and I look back at him as one of our greatest players of the PL era, certainly from 06-14, I'd say he was absolutely integral to everything good this team did and he was as complete a footballer as any.
So you believe this City team defends worse than Wimbledon from the 90’s?
Oh there's nothing to forgive, I was laughing. It makes me appreciate our success so much more, especially given that I've had a red brother all my life.Forgive me mate but I had to laugh at that.
Regarding Rooney, well if you frequent this forum long enough, you'll find many haven't forgiven Rooney for his contract shenanigans and the alleged flirting with City and hence there will be many who won't even consider him a Utd legend. For me personally, I look back more fondly at his on pitch performances rather than his contract stand offs. I guess I'm able to separate the player from the man. That's why my views on Keane, Giggs, Rooney, Neville etc aren't really affected by what they say or do away from the football field. I consider all of them bigger legends than someone like Ronaldo who gave his best years to Madrid, not to us. So for me, his contract issue and stuff are long forgotten and I look back at him as one of our greatest players of the PL era, certainly from 06-14, I'd say he was absolutely integral to everything good this team did and he was as complete a footballer as any.
I'm not sure there is a right answer on this one - whether toure or rooney, a fan like me that can't look past the way they disrespected our respective clubs or a fan like you that only looks at the football on the pitch. Legend, best player, favourite player, most important player........I'd argue they are slightly different terms and probably mean different things to different fans. Hence why to me Zaba is a legend but very far from our best player. That's the fun of football discussions like the one on Aguero - we each have different criteria that are equally valid
Indeed. I guess there would be less Messi vs Ronaldo debates if people simply realized this without trying to one up each other.
Well that's kind of part of the point because Wimbledon wouldn't be able to defend that way now. They'd end each game with 6 players.
Even in the 2000s...I watched the FA cup final from 2004 back when I was trying to get to sleep not too long ago. That game now would have resulted in Millwall having 2 red cards before half time. Wise would have been sent off 3 times over for hacking Ronaldo down. That's what the likes of Shearer and Henry had to contend with every single week, on top of there being a number of very good defenders and organised defensive teams to contend with.
Who have you got now? Player wise in terms of actually very good defenders...Van Dijk and that's it? Good defensive teams....I dunno, anyone? Liverpool...sort of.
Absolutely.
Sure. But it wasn't better defensive organization.
Problem here is that I don't agree they faced better defenders or more organised defenses. If anything football is much more collective today than it was during that era.
Well, to say only Van Dijk is a good defender I mean sure we can look back on the past and say probably there is no evident Maldini or Baresi.
Problem I have with what you are saying is that I think City defends much better than any of those teams you say were very organized. For me its much harder to defend when you are a possession based team, who doesn't defend with many players, who presses higher up the pitch, compared to teams who play with 10 or 11 eleven players behind the ball.
I'd say that due to the way the game has changed in recent years teams don't emphasise defending as much anymore - especially the top teams, most of whom either try to whom through possession based play or counter-attacking football. Or, in other words, by simply blowing their opponents out of the water. The last defensively minded team to win the CL was Chelsea, and that was more down to being a fluke than consistent masterclasses in defending. Before that you had Mourinho's Inter, whose wins were sandwiched by Guardiola's Barca.
In a way it makes sense. And not just in regards to how the game has adapted physically. While shoving 10 men behind the ball can be effective, it requires maximum concentration for a solid portion of the game, and one slip-up can mean you have to alter your tactical approach entirely. Whereas in an open, high-octane game you're generally still in with a shout if you fall behind.
But yeah, don't think it's unfair to say the game has changed in a way wherein top strikers generally get afforded more chances to score now than they did in the past. The best ones are still prolific enough to capitalise on said chances, mind.
True, but from a defensive perspective it's arguably actually more effective. Instead of defending incredibly well for 45 minutes and leaking one expected goal having sat back and invited on pressure, it's arguably more sensible to instead push forward, risking your defensive shape but also potentially not having to do as much defending as you would otherwise. Your chances of conceding (if you're good) might end up being the same in spite of your weaker defending, but your chance of scoring will improve.
With this I am not saying teams aren't more exposed this days, its just everytime we push arguments like this I can remember one day to push that modern players are shit at crossing because today the better teams don't rely as much on crossing to create chances.
Its just impossible to make a direct comparison between Aguero or Shearer. They are just different players, playing on different eras, where Shearer never played on a super squad. The good question here is. Would Guardiola want prime Shearer playing for him at City?
Rooney is more of an unselfish player, been playing as a second striker or no 10 most of his career. Only two seasons when he actually play as the main striker (the season when RVN was injured and 2009/2010 season.
I’ll put Rooney above Aguero, Rooney is alround striker. And indeed he fell off a cliff about age of 28-30 but he’s been a class since he was a teenager and that covers those ages.
If we're talking about absolute prime Shearer at his very best (Blackburn days), I'd say yes.
The only doubt I have on this is regarding Guardiola ideology if we can say this.
But certainly would be amazing to imagine prime Shearer being worked and improved by Guardiola. I respect Shearer, he probably didn't had the luck of being exposed to top Champions League level.
Maybe if he joined United. He was very good during that period between Euro 96 and France 98 for England.
Henry wouldnt have been "truely" a ballon d'or contender in this era though.
And he won his premier league player of the years when he didn't have a Suarez,Rvp or Bale to condend with so i doubt he would be that much of an obvious choice either
As it often happens in hypothetical arguments, I can only say that, personally, I disagree with you. Messi and Ronaldo aside, Henry’s peak was good enough to compete for Ballon d’Or in any era. I mean in 02/03 he scored 32 goals and made 28 assists in 54 games, 33 and 10 in 45 in 05/06...
Better than Shearer. Worse than Henry
Cole wasn’t as good as those three but he was every bit as good as Kane is for example.
Ruud was better than Shearer
Henry was better than Aguero.
Fine margins and all slightly different players.
My top 5 PL strikers would be;
1. Rooney
2. Henry
3. Ruud
4. Aguero
5. Cole( because when he gets a ball, he scores a goal
)
Special mention; Zlatan and Rvp.
1. Rooney
2. Henry
3. Ruud
4. Aguero
5. Cole( because when he gets a ball, he scores a goal
)Special mention; Zlatan and Rvp.
Not Sure if you watch MUTV. I watch games from the 90s all the time and the defenders are not close to current PL level. We scored so many comedy and easy goals to the point where it would be difficult to know how good our greats from that era really were if not for their Euro exploits.
No Shearer?My top 5 PL strikers would be;
1. Rooney
2. Henry
3. Ruud
4. Aguero
5. Cole( because when he gets a ball, he scores a goal
Special mention; Zlatan and Rvp.
Brain said Shearer is 5th but heart said Cole