Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Rozay, Sep 1, 2018.
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It's because of him that this small club won so much. More players should do it.
Seen RVN’s name mentioned way too much in this thread. He’s never as good as any of the others mentioned in this thread.
Also, interesting consensus between Suarez and Aguero. I personally couldn’t split them when both were here, but seen many say Suarez was a different level.
better than Shearer and probably on the same level as Henry, but with more EPL titles.
Not sure where the Henry comparisons come from. Agüero had never even been player of the season. He is incredibly consistent season after season, and he always is one of the best players in the league, but never unquestionably the best. Rooney is a more appropriate comparison. Different players, but still.
I keep reading the title as "How close to Aguero is Henry/Shearer".
Was Shearer really that good? Back when he was in his prime, you could only catch the odd Premier League game over here, and he did not play a lot of European football.
Missed a penalty in the shoot-out against my local side Partizan back in 2003, allowing Partizan to reach the CL group stage. Will always love him for that.
Aguero's scoring record is far better than Rooney's though, consistency-wise. A comparison between the two probably only holds weight if you'd argue Rooney was a far better all-round player, and I'm not sure that's at all the case.
He was ridiculously clinical in his Blackburn days. Managed three consecutive 30+ goal seasons in the league at Blackburn. And while he didn't quite retain the same consistency at Newcastle he was still prolific for them.
I'd put him on level with Shearer, but I don't think he's close to Henry in the sense that Henry was just as devastating as a scorer but offered a lot more than Aguero does with his game. Henry was a great playmaker, dangerous when taking free-kicks, and had an aura about him that put fear in defenders in a way I haven't seen since.
I rarely worried myself over Henry when he was facing us. Aguero,complete opposite.
I think Henry is the best Premier League era striker. Aguero is close but behind him.
Aguero 229 apps, 160 goals, 41 assists
Henry 258 apps, 175 goals, 74 assists
By the time Sergio matches Henry's games he'll probably have more goals but less assists.
His mins per goal ratio is fantastic. MOTD just showed it as 106 v 122 for Henry. Plus 43 in 64 against the Top 6 shows he’s not just a flat track bully.
I could pick differently on any given day.
SAF tried to sign him 3 times, should tell you everything. He rarely went back to sign a player that had previously turned him down.
In his peak he was the complete forward. He had two ACLs, lost his pace and had to convert himself into a targetman which is essentially what people remember him as
I made the thread and even I see that most of the time!
Hence why I've said that they were different players. Rooney rarely played as a focal point of our attack and Agüero plays there 95% of the time. He's undoubtedly a better scorer though and would probably go down in history as a better player than Rooney.
My point is that Agüero's strength is his longevity, but Henry definitely had a higher peak (although injuries didn't help the Argentinian) and he had spent pretty much the same time playing in the Premier league. Same goes for Rooney, who will go down as a PL legend, but his peak was inferior to that of Henry/Suarez/Cristiano (although that Bayern injury fecked him pretty hard).
Natural talent and ability Suarez is the deadliest striker I've ever seen in the prem. Aguero is the best all round. Henry a close 2nd.
It's hard to judge as the level of defending at present in the Permier League is horrendously poor and has been for some time. People get goals where players are just too lazy or useless to track a runner...it happens all the time even in the big games.
Harry Kane for example notches up 30+ goals a year and although he's a good player, isn't a patch on someone like Henry or Shearer.
If it wasn't for Aguero's injury problems though I reckon he'd be up there with those two. Arguably is anyway but I'd have him as 3rd of the three. He's never dominated a season and created a debate about whether he's the best player in the world in the way Henry did, or been consistently one of the most dangerous players in the league despite playing for a more often than not comical Newcastle team.
Well, I am, and I think most coaches or players would tell you the same. Wayne Rooney played striker, no 10, left and right forward and winger, and CM, for one of the worlds best teams ever and the national team. Aguero was originally benched by Guardiola because of his all round weaknesses, and have often been criticized for not being able to compliment Messi at Argentina well enough.
For most of Kun’s carreer, his sole mission has been to score goals, which he is fantastic at. Roony was only used that way twice, both times scoring close to thirty league goals. The reason why he didn’t play fox in the box more often, was that he was too useful in other areas of the pitch to be limited to that role. Still he has a record number of goals for United and England.
Rooney hit the ground running and petered out, which is why he by some is remembered as less brilliant than he was. He was far more of a player than Aguero or Shearer though.
Yeah, he was a different beast before his knee injury at Newcastle. Oozed danger anywhere within 30 yards from goal. Quicker then so defences couldn't push up too far (because invariably Sutton would win the first ball), but stand off him and he could crack one in from range. In that 1993-1996 period he was both a great scorer and a scorer of great goals. I take @Hound Dog's point that he didn't get a lot of exposure to continental competition, but Shearer never had any problems threatening top class defences. Always showed up at international tournaments - 9 goals altogether - and scored against big sides (Holland, Germany, Argentina).
You can probably count the number of games Rooney played right or left wing on one hand respectively. He played #10 when there were other, better goalscorers in the team (Van Persie). He dropped to CM when he could no longer cut it in advanced positions and he was never superb there or close to being one of the best in that position.
Aguero is a superior dribbler and finisher and has also played #10/SS at Atletico Madrid. He has superior close-control, first touch; better with both feet and a better short passer for short combinations and 1-2 play. He is a more complete forward IMO. Rooney maybe has long range passing and work-rate over him.
A factor not mentioned in full in this discussion is the versions of the players as a whole. Shearer had three iterations, Aguero has had two, and Henry was fortunate enough to have no debilitating injuries that changed his game until he left England.
vers 1. Blackburn and first season at Newcastle. Fast; mobile; worked the entire line of a defensive unit both inside and outside his opposing centrebacks; could beat defenders to the near post on short-burst acceleration; great leap allied with great heading ability;ambidextrous; long-range shooter and was, essentially, an immaculate centre-forward and arguably the most balanced and rounded since Van Basten (alongside peak Shevchenko). Kun, never in his career has been close to this version of Shearer, and this version of Shearer can easily go head-to-head with Henry because he was an absolute terror for defences before he even got into the final third.
vers 2. Numerous injuries took away his top-end pace as well as a chunk of his agility and mobility and he was no longer able to fly by centrebacks or rely on superior pace to his markers. This version of Shearer was forced to be more canny, more close contact and reliant on decisive actions at key moments that won games. Still prolific, still extremely dangerous and impressive, but not a physical marvel anymore. This version of Shearer was neck and neck with Aguero, imo.
vers 3. numerous injuries took away a good chunk of his pace and he no longer made some of the old runs, instead tussling directly with CB's and jostling for position through brawn, grit and determination. More like an old-fashioned CF who was in the wars every game. His GPG ratio went down a lot in this period and actually damaged his imperious numbers from the two previous incarnations. Aguero, to date, is comfortably better than this iteration.
vers 1. Was likened to Romario and had fabulous short dribbles and technical scrambles with defenders and would use his low centre of gravity to beguile and turn them inside out before converting even a half chance with clinical, unerring accuracy. This version of Aguero was touted to go on and be a world star and potential all-timer.
vers 2. Injuries robbed him of those swift sudden turns and dribbles so he became more fox-like and more focused on 6-10 yard play close to the goal.Obviously has his moments outside the box (like today) but his threat only really comes alive inside specific perimeters, especially show when contrasted with vers 1 Shearer, or Henry. This version of Aguero does not have the all-round game or threat of vers 1 Shearer or peak Henry, which is why he has been overlooked for individual awards and has barely made any mark in Europe or on the international stage. Is he a bad player? Of course not, but this PL era is weak in terms of defenders and defences and he's playing in a team that make it impossible to focus on him, which is where so many of the exploits he benefits from are apparent, and incidentally, why he doesn't offer the same threat for his country or against superior defences and teams in Europe. Context is important here and I feel Aguero does not have these things weighted against him like he should do.
Basically had a perfect run of it as the best version of himself until the very end of his time at Arsenal when his back started giving him a little grief. No question he was exceptional in England, absolutely no question at all, but he remained 'prime' where the other two had to modify their games because of injuries. Vers 1 of Shearer was a marvel, just in a different way to Henry, and those 3 seasons of his are just as impressive as what we saw of Henry. Where Henry takes a dump on both of the others from a great height is when his assists and ability to be a decoy for others to thrive equally is factored in. Henry was the focal point of Arsenal and he made them tick, not the other way round. He was Silva and Aguero rolled into one with lashing of Sterling for the fact he had so much play go through him, drove the opposing players out of position with selfless or ingenuously intricate play whilst also scoring ridiculous goals at a ridiculous rate. Nevertheless, it shouldn't be forgotten how injuries didn't take away prime attributes from him - Henry getting a pace and acceleration docking like Shearer did, cannot do some of the things he became renowned for; Henry not being able to twist and turn like he did would have also forced him to be a different kind of forward, so context is important.
Lineker, Cantona (In my heart the best ever), Shearer, Rooney, Drogba, Suarez, Aguero, Van Persie, Van Nistelroy, Bergkamp, Torres, Owen all fantastic but Henry was something else... A monster.
Good post. I probably agree with all that.
That's seriously impressive. Genius signing by City.
I think thats a bit of a myth. If you look back at the 90/2000s the defending was just as bad.
It was way worse, mostly. Seems to me only top teams had a clue. Whole game done changed.
He was a great striker
Also... Just look at a team like Burnley who pretty much defend their way into the mid-table each year, taking points from the big clubs regularly along with quite a few other smaller clubs.
Used to be a lot more scrappy goals, goals from mistakes, defenders horribly mistiming tackles etc. Most goals now come from tight positions with an amount of luck or after a team has broken down every wall by pure skill or tactic. I don't have statistics for it but I don't think crossing is as common as it was for creating chances anymore, probably because there is less room in and around the box. Different dynamic as you said.
I think the old PL is more similar to what the Championship is looking like these days.
By mistake I deleted the original post I replied to you.
Anyway you understood what was my intention. I like to watch football from the 90's era because it was when I started following football, and I think its understandable we always have the sensation the players, defenders, teams from that era... everything was better.
And the more I watch while its true there were great players on those eras, reality is even simple things as scouting the opponents was very basic, sometimes it was done by sending someone from your staff to a game to analyze the opponents.
This just to say its difficult to say Aguero scores more because the defenses are shit, or Shearer wasn't as good because we wasn't as tested at European level.
Both were great on their era, its just the realities where they played are totally different. Shearer never played on a supersquad for example. I respect both players from the present or from that era.
You know what. Discussions like these are really fascinating because you want to find out whats right, but it is just impossible to conclude fairly. Put Shearer in this era and Aguero in the other and who knows what would be the result. That is also why records are important for players, only thing that matters for strikers in the end is goals scored.
Its the neverending story.
Not to mention Aguero or Shearer are totally different style of players, cultural background etc. Actually I always liked Shearer from his time as a player, always seemed to me his best times with England were maybe Euro 96 or 98, that partnership with Owen didn't worked out as well on Euro 2000. Which was great from a Portugal perspective.
Seriously, he didn't had much luck from what I can remember because the Newcastle teams from his era never were on the same level as Man United, and its impossible to compare Rovers from the 90's with current City.
You make it sound like you either didn’t see much of Rooney or Agüero before 2013 or disn’t understand much of it, if you believe Aguero affected games as a no 10 the way Rooney did when he played anywhere in the forward line.
He’s certainly close
Wether he’s better is another question
But being “close”, the answer is obviously a massive massive yes
When you talk about the greatest strikers the league has ever seen, Aguero will be mentioned without question in that conversation.
I only got to see Shearer the late Newcastle version of Shearer so I can't compare him to Aguero / Henry. I'd rate Henry as an overall better player because his all around game. He has a ridiculous number of assists. But Aguero is a big game player if I ever saw one. He always does well against the big teams, something I was never concerned about with Henry.
Our 06-09 team would have been monstrous if we had Aguero as the striker instead of Saha / Berba.
No it really wasn't.
Just look at the calibre of defenders from then compared to now.
The standard of football has improved massively but it's almost like teams just can't be bothered with basic defending anymore. Even the supposedly better teams like Chelsea or Spurs, just let opposition teams run in behind their fullbacks with no one there to cover. Man City defend like a mid table team would have 15 years ago. You just have to watch the goals from any PL match week and there are ones in there that are utterly baffling from a defensive point of view.
It's a lot easier to score goals now than it used to be. That's why decent players can suddenly notch up the kind of goal scoring records that only the very best players used to be able to. That's why Man City were able to rack up 100+ goals and points in the league last year, and is also why freak results like the one yesterday with Chelsea are just treated almost as normal now, because in the past it would take playing very well to score a goal at all in a game like that.
I know people here love the early ‘90s United side but, unless you had a ‘90s ref who let them get away with murder, the 2007-08 side would trash them.
The quality of the early Premier League is so much lower than what it went on to become in the mid ‘00s.
Shamelessly stolen from reddit. The top 10 players of the Premier League era when it comes to goals/assists.
Henry & Aguero are absolute freaks when you look at that.
Aguero is 48 goals behind Rooney with 262 less appearances
Rooney was not a pure goal scorer and he didn't lead the line always.
Separate names with a comma.