How do Brighton find so many wonderkids?
- Thread starter sglowrider
- Start date
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/brentfords-data-driven-moneyball-success.474808/
Both clubs are run very similarly. Essentially, data > opinion.
Both clubs are run very similarly. Essentially, data > opinion.
SELECT *
FROM fmDatabase
WHERE pa > 180
FROM fmDatabase
WHERE pa > 180
Wasn't the case with Caicedo though. We were there but just couldn't be fag to do the complex paperwork.
They’ve kinda got the Dortmund model. Young players are more inclined to join them over a bigger club with more pressure and less opportunity like us.
I think we do scout these players but are finding it harder to persuade them to join us because they know the route to first team football just isn’t there. So while it’s easy to moan that we scouted them when they went for £3m and now they’re worth £60m, the truth is that we can’t make the same promises to them as a club like Brighton can.
I think we do scout these players but are finding it harder to persuade them to join us because they know the route to first team football just isn’t there. So while it’s easy to moan that we scouted them when they went for £3m and now they’re worth £60m, the truth is that we can’t make the same promises to them as a club like Brighton can.
Also their whole model is based on finding these guys, so they'll aggressively go for them, while clubs like United need the best of the best and can't fill their squad with a bunch of wonderkids, but need a blend of the top players and then some of the wonderkids. And a lot of these won't develop into top players without the environment like Brightons.
Yeah that’s kinda the point I was making but thanks for expanding on it if that wasn’t clear
Genuine question, are most of their signings already highly rated within FM?
Yeah, ive said before but im convinced if Caicedo had joined us, he wouldnt have been playing as much as he did for Brighton ,and its likely we would have loaned him a lot (and maybe even ended up selling him after stopping progression).
Teams like United nee instant success, you hardly see the potential younger ones (that are cheap) go to top clubs and progress through the years (especially if the top clubs are challenging year on year).
You have some exceptions but they are top top potential players like you see with Messi or when we signed Rooney at 18 (even then he already had 2 years at Everton and a great Euros).
Look at the number of players they sign every summer.
They've signed 9 players this summer, 11 last summer and 14 the year before. They roll the dice on undervalued players and trust the data that's telling them, there's some star quality in at least a few of them.
They've signed 9 players this summer, 11 last summer and 14 the year before. They roll the dice on undervalued players and trust the data that's telling them, there's some star quality in at least a few of them.
I do wonder how these players would turn out if a bigger more high pressured club signed them before they went to a Brighton or Dortmund.
There is a lot of benefits to developing at a smaller club with very little expectation to win anything.
There is a lot of benefits to developing at a smaller club with very little expectation to win anything.
And they have feeder clubs in other leagues that they loan them out too, and if they do well they come back to Brighton. E.g. Mitoma at Union SG and some other guy that returned this summer from there too.
How many wonderkids or wunderkinds did they find?
Caicedo wasn't a find that only Brighton knew about, United tried to sign him before them.
Who else is a wonderkid that they signed?
Caicedo wasn't a find that only Brighton knew about, United tried to sign him before them.
Who else is a wonderkid that they signed?
In principle, we've got enough holes across the team, whether a multipurpose RB (I like AWB, don't get me wrong) to a 6 and an 8, to CF to a definitive RFW, that you'd think one or two would back themselves.
A lot of it is recruitment just not being canny enough to identify and hone in and then deal with any agent fee issues (work out details on percentages-it would still save us so much money longer term, even if only one out of three deals works out) . There might also be a not-altogether inaccurate perception that the manager is too cautious to play them, particularly since he has certain favourites -all managers do, but as noted elsewhere, it's striking how much he veers towards people he's worked with before, like a sophisticate's Redknapp or something.
I think reorientating ourselves as a club that backs the 'best' potential, ala Dortmund but with more historical 'prestige', against City's doped monolith and our own difficulties around ownership is the best way to go, short-term, in terms of footballing and 'brand' strategy alike. A lot of us understand if it's going to be difficult to win the league in the next couple of seasons, but a challenge founded upon a young side with playing foundations along the lines of what Brighton are doing stylistically would be the next best thing.
Title was Click Bait but the Video did a good job in explaining Brighton's Model . It is mentioned that most of the Brighton's unknown gems weren't so unknown and how they take lot of low priced punts but they do better job of farming them , developing them and finally integrating them .
Simon Adingra - who posted much better numbers there last season than Mitoma did when he was there.
Caicedo, Enciso, Adingra, Mitoma, Ferguson, Sanchez, Ben White.
Hanging outside the school gates in an old white van
Hire their top scouts so we could ruin them.
The men from Brighton have always been adept at finding the up and coming hot young lads.
calm down, it's just harmless fun
calm down, it's just harmless fun
You would have to assume that other clubs are aware, but either don't follow through or Brighton get in there first. Mitoma in fairness they seemingly pulled out of nowhere.
Ferguson played against Chelsea at 14/15, turned down Utd and Liverpool to go to Brighton.
Cucurella had been at Barca.
MacAllister was playing for Boca and was linked to other clubs before he went there.
Enciso was linked to City and Arsenal.
Estupinan - was at Villareal, was linked to West Ham before Brighton.
Trossard said he rejected Arsenal before going there only to end up at Arsenal in the end.
Another young kid linked previously Dario Osorio was also linked to Madrid, City etc.
Personally I think the players choose Brighton, because they now have a good setup that ensures a good development route to playing first team PL football and the potential of a big move after a couple of years.
No. Brighton have a clever recruitment team that people want to downplay, but they have fully earned their success by doing things correctly. Nobody knew who Mitoma was before Brighton signed him. Caicedo was probably the highest rated young player they signed as he was known by a few other clubs including Utd. That Tifo video tries to oversimplify things acting like every team knew about these players in advance, but it's nonsense. Big teams like Utd have scouts all over the world who scout huge amounts of teams and players. They'll have seen loads of players but if they don't have any intention to sign them they don't deserve any credit. Brighton found these players, relying largely on data and correctly assessed which ones were likely to make it. Despite what that previous poster said, not one of Brighton's signings were even close to having 180+pa in FM when they were signed. Most were average potential players.
To be fair I bet Amad and Hannibal and those kinds of players wished they’d ended up at Dortmund or Brighton at this moment in time. Getting games and being able to make mistakes and learn is the name of the game. Managerial and the ownership instability doesn’t help either.
We used to be able to do that with players like Rooney and Ronadlo who are obviously on a totally different level to the majority of youth punts we are making now. They were signed for the first team, like Rasmus and Sancho more so. It would be akin to playing Bellingham fresh from Birmingham or Haaland from Molde. These were pretty obviously really top players in the making who were playing first team and standing out but I feel we didn’t push hard enough. It’s a pity because we were in transition anyway and could have been patient and brave
All these short term fixes will keep coming back to bite us as the competition hoovers up the next crop of top up and comers. I hope we can become the kind of place the Rooneys and Ronaldos really want to come to bloom again.
We used to be able to do that with players like Rooney and Ronadlo who are obviously on a totally different level to the majority of youth punts we are making now. They were signed for the first team, like Rasmus and Sancho more so. It would be akin to playing Bellingham fresh from Birmingham or Haaland from Molde. These were pretty obviously really top players in the making who were playing first team and standing out but I feel we didn’t push hard enough. It’s a pity because we were in transition anyway and could have been patient and brave
All these short term fixes will keep coming back to bite us as the competition hoovers up the next crop of top up and comers. I hope we can become the kind of place the Rooneys and Ronaldos really want to come to bloom again.
They give those young players actual game time to develop as well. As do Dortmund. That's why Bellingham joined them. We just leave them on the bench, reserves or loan them out then they struggle to get back into the first team even if they do well on their loan. Someone like Pellestri and Amad would be great at Brighton.
This is a much better video looking at Brighton's recruitment. As per usual, Tifo oversimplify things, making it sound like all of Brighton's signings are already well-known and downplaying how good Brighton's recruitment actually is.
Gotta think agents have a big say in that too. As an agent I'd imagine you'd be more incline to move your client to a bigger club with a bigger fee, rather than for peanuts. For example caicedo to Chelsea for 115 mil is obviously better than caicedo to Chelsea for 3mil. Should the client come good it be hard to move them on again in a big money move, so youve lost out in millions.
I think if you constantly prioritize your profits over the interests of your clients, many will hesitate to join you. Raiola for instance always claimed that the wish of the player was priority #1. Of course that doesn't have to mean much and there will be many bad apples in the basket but in general, I guess the agent will act in the interest of the player. And most of the time this will lead to future revenues as well.
I rather think the current trend of extending your contract although you want to move next year is a result of what you're describing. In the sense of "maximize your profit now and let it be the problem of your future club to buy you out"
We have a chap called Facundo Pellistri who's been knocking the door for years and we hardly ever give a run out to.
Several posters said it but this kind of model can hardly be replicated for bigger clubs, who need instant improvement and quality.
They can nurture a few talents, but there’s no room for young but raw talents in every position.
Even Caicedo had a hard time when he arrives at Brighton. He had 6-months in Brighton, didn’t play that much, had to be loaned in Belgium, and was recalled in January due to injuries in Brightons midfield, even then he only played after a couple months. It was only last season that he found a good level that made him a 100m prospect.
And that was in an environment where he had close to no pressure, and luck played its part in getting him his first starting games.
Now let’s imagine if we had played someone like Amad or Mainoo and they failed to show something meaningful for 3 months, let alone 6-months…
They can nurture a few talents, but there’s no room for young but raw talents in every position.
Even Caicedo had a hard time when he arrives at Brighton. He had 6-months in Brighton, didn’t play that much, had to be loaned in Belgium, and was recalled in January due to injuries in Brightons midfield, even then he only played after a couple months. It was only last season that he found a good level that made him a 100m prospect.
And that was in an environment where he had close to no pressure, and luck played its part in getting him his first starting games.
Now let’s imagine if we had played someone like Amad or Mainoo and they failed to show something meaningful for 3 months, let alone 6-months…
When your Brighton you can keep trying young potential and some of them will stick, some won’t. Big clubs don’t have the same flexibility in experimenting that much.
I find Tifo not very good compared to some other channels tbh, they seem half arsed compared to some others. This guys voice though, is horrific.
I know its an incredible concept and all but they trust their scouts and data analysts
Edit: Course they aren't also quoted 50 million just for showing an interest in a player too
Edit: Course they aren't also quoted 50 million just for showing an interest in a player too
BHA and Newcastle, the common denominator is quite simply Dan Ashworth.
51% of the transfer profit shown on the table at the beginning of the video is from Cucurella and Caicedo, who were sold to Chelsea.
This is a bit like thinking one of your local drug dealers is really good at business when one of his clients is simply a bigger addict.
This is a bit like thinking one of your local drug dealers is really good at business when one of his clients is simply a bigger addict.
Well, hence, 'There might also be a not-altogether inaccurate perception that the manager is too cautious to play them, particularly since he has certain favourites'... It would take ETH 9or his replacement if needs be) adopting a slightly different strategy too. Though I'm not sure Pellistri is quite 1st choice level either (I like him as a squad option, tbf, and think ETH should be giving him more time against Antony etc).
You could make the argument neither Sancho nor Antony has shown something meaningful for 6+ months despite being signed for massive fees. If we signed young players for reasonable fees we have the option to loan them too if they aren't good enough for the 1st team. So far, we've really not given any of the young players we've signed cheap a chance. Pellistri's done well anytime he's come on yet never gets any chance to show what he can do as a starter. Same with Diallo (obviously injured right now but all signs point to us wanting to send him out on loan before that injury anyway, even after he proved himself last season).
People on here are just as bad, never wanting us to give any mins to any young player that wasn't signed for £60m+ even if the player they're replacing in the team has been poor. I think this is all excuses tbh. It's not like our regular starters are performing. We just aren't prepared to give these players a chance, instead preferring to wait til talented players make it somewhere else so we can spend £70m on them where if anything they've been more likely to fail due to the extra pressure that comes with these high fees.
Exactly. The pressure to perform is massive at United compared to Brighton. It is very important to play first team football at the age of 19-22.
Players only look like talents if you develop them properly. It's not only about buying them but giving them chances in an environment that supports them.
I'm sure if Brighton had Pellistri or Amad they'd be way more develop than with us. Also we must consider very few make it at top level. For each youngster that looks like a gem there's 5-10 that didn't. Brighton it's on a hot streak they for sure have an amazing scouting department but it's not realistic to think they'd be able to keep digging talents like this forever.
I'm sure if Brighton had Pellistri or Amad they'd be way more develop than with us. Also we must consider very few make it at top level. For each youngster that looks like a gem there's 5-10 that didn't. Brighton it's on a hot streak they for sure have an amazing scouting department but it's not realistic to think they'd be able to keep digging talents like this forever.