How do we extract world-class performances from average players?

[Mindhunter]

I have been wanting to start this thread for a while.

During our glorious days under SAF in the 2000s (and earlier), we have seen fringe players consistently putting in world-class performances for United, something we haven't seen as frequently henceforth. Players like John O'Shea, Ji Sung Park, Darren Fletcher, etc. who you would normally think of as squad players would come out of the dugout and absolutely grab games by the scruff of their necks. I have no doubt in my mind that even if we put in a Jesse Lingard into that team, he would also produce a lot of goals and assists.

What was it with SAF or his set-up that caused this amplification in performances? My guess would be that it is a unique combination of SAF's personality, his relative God like status at the club, the quality of the backroom staff he had, and obviously the almost obsessive zeal to not let standards drop despite multiple trophies every year.

 

[RedBanker]

Putting a fear of losing in the players. Losing=ignominy. Make losing the worst possible outcome in the players minds. Plus man management and motivational skills of the highest order. That was SAF basically.

Very few managers can do it nowadays. Klopp is doing it. But how long can he sustain?

Longevity is anyway an extinct concept in modern football.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Think it's mainly about the mental side of the game.

Imagine Park with Ozil's workrate and attitude...SAF loved industrious, combative players not because he liked to see people flying into tackles but because personality, courage, bravery etc (all the buzzwords that get overused) are important when playing in stadium with 80,000 people ready to slate your every mistake. If you find an average player who can cope with pressure and has a good work rate, SAF could usually integrate them into the team.

The real gems are players like Bruno, who have both quality and workrate

 

[Withnail]

You can motivate certain players to play to the best of their ability and to do the hard work which enables your WC players to shine.

However, you can't get a mediocre player to consistently produce WC performances. If a player is consistently producing World Class performances then they are World Class.

Are we sure we haven't drifted into nostalgia-induced myth territory here?

 

[AltiUn]

Putting a fear of losing in the players. Losing=ignominy. Make losing the worst possible outcome in the players minds. Plus man management and motivational skills of the highest order. That was SAF basically.

Very few managers can do it nowadays. Klopp is doing it. But how long can he sustain?

Longevity is anyway an extinct concept in modern football.

I don't think even Klopp's doing it. With the exception of Gomez and Wijnaldum all their starting XI players are mint.

 

[M Bison]

Putting a fear of losing in the players. Losing=ignominy. Make losing the worst possible outcome in the players minds. Plus man management and motivational skills of the highest order. That was SAF basically.

Very few managers can do it nowadays. Klopp is doing it. But how long can he sustain?

Longevity is anyway an extinct concept in modern football.

I’m not sure I agree with you here, fergie seemed to give players confidence and a freedom to express themselves, I think a fear of losing would have the opposite effect and potentially be restrictive? Although on the flip side, it would explain why we were so famous for last minute winning goals etc.

 

[RedStarUnited]

I don't think even Klopp's doing it. With the exception of Gomez and Wijnaldum all their starting XI players are mint.

His technique is very very high.

 

[AltiUn]

His technique is very very high.

I agree, I don't think he's quite as good as his team mates who are among the top 1-3 players in their position, generally.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Normally we can't.
Average players stay average bar some average players that potentially can. Many average players even with below will stay shit.

How?
1. Cheat code: Input S. A. F. as the password.

2. Foster high-standards environment, not sustainable as it's highly dependent on "expectations" and active staffs+players demanding it daily. Difficult to create this culture. No proven method. Seems to be short term as it depends on the instigator usually the manager, and being in the right club.


Easier method - most easiest way to be replicated?
3. Great system and coaching to implement it.

Case 1 - Leeds when attacking. They're not world class of course, but imagine if they have actual good PL quality level of players in their disposals, I'm sure people will say the players are good-->great players.

Case 2 - Pool. Honestly though, many of their players before are ridiculed for being average, then somehow magically perform better and better, improving to a point where people no longer say those players are average. Of course, this doesn't include players like VVD, Allison, etc. Salah before is not this "world class" people say he is now, then after joining, suddenly he's world class?

Case 3 - City. Remember how much of a joke their Argentinian CB was. Can't remember his name. One season later and suddenly he's world class?! Plenty of their other players also look better in that team. Difficult to pinpoint which one is average of course since they're pooling in players with talents, and not all their terrible players improved. Definitely depends.

Case 4 - SAF's United. It's long ago, but undoubtedly the most of plenty average players managed to produced world class moments for them to cherish before reverting back to their actual average levels, as mentioned by OP. Remember Gibson's amazing shooting? Macheda's goals? Richardson being a very good LB for a season? Obertan terrorizing defenders? Buttner's run leading to the goal? Freaks!


TLDR
1. Sir Alex Ferguson - one in a million~
2. Environment/Culture - difficult method.
3. System & Coaching - "easiest" method.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Alternatively,
4. Carrot and Stick method. It's not a good sustainable method, but good for short term of few games.

 

[el3mel]

Some managers are able to extract 200% of the players abilities, regardless of them being world class or not. They manage to force them to put extra efforts and give their all and beyond on the pitch. Other managers can't. I never knew why but it's a skill some managers have and others don't. It's not a shame for those who don't have it, though, beside it's not sustainable because once these managers leave and are replaced by one other who can't get the players to run through a wall for him, the cracks will get exposed, which is exactly what happened to us.

So better to have a great team rather than an average team with manager papering over cracks.

 

[Dr Foo]

I don't think even Klopp's doing it. With the exception of Gomez and Wijnaldum all their starting XI players are mint.

But Klopp made what seemed like average players mint ain't it? Maybe it's a combination of coaching as well. The likes of Wijnaldum, Gomez, Robertson, Trent were not known to be great before joining, Henderson has improved so much, Milner seems like their Park.

Creating a culture and mentality of certain standards helps too

 

[Mibabalou]

you need to put them in situations where they can be successful.

Highlight their best traits and try to hide their worst. If we had asked Park to be deep lying playmaker or some creative behemoth #10 he would have failed.

SAF was a absolute master at the right player for the right match which would highlight their strength.

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

Well, Jlingz has just been given a contract extension according to reports. Hes been poor for a very long time, and any one else watching this saga has to be thinking theres no real need to try here. Just get your foot in the door, and then get paid millions just to train.

Had to see where the motivation is here for players that only care about money cheap fame. Players who care about the game and their ability to play will motivate themselves. The days of Tom Cleverly looking world class are long gone Im afraid.

 

[RedBanker]

I don't think even Klopp's doing it. With the exception of Gomez and Wijnaldum all their starting XI players are mint.

Henderson? Matip? Firmino?
He took a team with effin Karius to the CL final. Must be doing something right.

 

[AltiUn]

Henderson? Matip? Firmino?
He took a team with effin Karius to the CL final. Must be doing something right.

Henderson's a really good midfielder has been for years. I don't think he ever managed to make Matip look good, Firmino he managed to me look good for 1 really good season, since then I've not been entirely impressed by him.

 

[RedBanker]

I’m not sure I agree with you here, fergie seemed to give players confidence and a freedom to express themselves, I think a fear of losing would have the opposite effect and potentially be restrictive? Although on the flip side, it would explain why we were so famous for last minute winning goals etc.

The confidence he gave was of course there. That's why I mentioned man management skills. But the fear factor was a big driver to our sustained success. It's well documented and vouched for by so many players and staff. Losing a game would mean a very difficult post game "hairdryer". Sometimes midgame. Ask Tottenham. That was the tonic which made us reverse a lot of games after halftime. And also at the death as you correctly mentioned. All winners hate/dread losing. Our boss made sure of it.

 

[JJ12]

Henderson's a really good midfielder has been for years. I don't think he ever managed to make Matip look good, Firmino he managed to me look good for 1 really good season, since then I've not been entirely impressed by him.

No he hasn't. He's been good for about 2 years and epitomises what this thread is talking about.

Cant believe he has been the captain of such a great side.

 

[Mindhunter]

You can motivate certain players to play to the best of their ability and to do the hard work which enables your WC players to shine.

However, you can't get a mediocre player to consistently produce WC performances. If a player is consistently producing World Class performances then they are World Class.

Are we sure we haven't drifted into nostalgia-induced myth territory here?

It's more than that though. You have a player like Macheda come in and score a blinder that won us a difficult match and then it jumpstarted our title win. There certainly has to be something there outside of just motivation and creating the right conditions for them to thrive because clearly he didn't have the talent for it which has been proved eventually as he petered away.

You are obviously right that these players won't produce world class performances everyday. By consistently, I meant that SAF had the knack of doing this with several players over long periods of time.

 

[RedBanker]

Henderson's a really good midfielder has been for years. I don't think he ever managed to make Matip look good, Firmino he managed to me look good for 1 really good season, since then I've not been entirely impressed by him.

That's a rare opinion. Maybe you have your reasons to say so, but it's generally agreed that Henderson would not be starting midfielder for CL champs.

 

[WR10]

You make them feel shame in poor efforts.

Bruno has succeeded at that for us. He’s been the driving factor behind almost all individual improvements amongst our players.

 

[RedBanker]

I don't think even Klopp's doing it. With the exception of Gomez and Wijnaldum all their starting XI players are mint.

And my friend, he has made a lot of unknown players into world class performers too. That's something SAF used to do quite easily.

 

[lex talionis]

Ferguson acquired players with the right character. There were a few exceptions but nearly everyone he brought in or brought up had the desire to excel for the team. When top players began to think about themselves first, he banished them.

It took balls of steel to manage that way for a massive club where everything he did was viewed under a microscope, but his determination carried through to the players who had it in them to believe in the bigger picture.

 

[Withnail]

It's more than that though. You have a player like Macheda come in and score a blinder that won us a difficult match and then it jumpstarted our title win. There certainly has to be something there outside of just motivation and creating the right conditions for them to thrive because clearly he didn't have the talent for it which has been proved eventually as he petered away.

You are obviously right that these players won't produce world class performances everyday. By consistently, I meant that SAF had the knack of doing this with several players over long periods of time.

He definitely got players to consistently perform to the best of their ability and won titles with squads that others wouldn't have had a hope with.

I wouldn't necessarily use the Macheda example. There's plenty of players had one-off flash-in-the-pan moments like that in. Park, O Shea and Fletcher were good players though and yeah Fergie got every ounce of talent out of them.

From that perspective I'd agree with you. He clearly had excellent motivational skills but I do think the atmosphere he created and the attitude of the likes of Keane fed into that.

Ex-players have said Fergie had a nack of saying the right thing at the right time to get the players into the right mindset for games.

 

[lysglimt]

Henderson? Matip? Firmino?
He took a team with effin Karius to the CL final. Must be doing something right.

The goalkeeper is generally considered the best or top-2 in the league
TAA and Robertson are considered the best in their position
VDD is the best in his position
Mane, Salah and Firmino

I am more impressed with Klopps ability to handpick the right players than to get them to play as a team - because player for player, they are the best in the league. But we are getting closer

 

[adexkola]

That's a rare opinion. Maybe you have your reasons to say so, but it's generally agreed that Henderson would not be starting midfielder for CL champs.

But... He is a starting midfielder for CL champs.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I don't think even Klopp's doing it. With the exception of Gomez and Wijnaldum all their starting XI players are mint.

Klopp has basically replaced his entire starting 11 since he joined yet you listen to people and swear he can turn water into wine and gets any old player working in a winning team

 

[mancan92]

The goalkeeper is generally considered the best or top-2 in the league
TAA and Robertson are considered the best in their position
VDD is the best in his position
Mane, Salah and Firmino

I am more impressed with Klopps ability to handpick the right players than to get them to play as a team - because player for player, they are the best in the league. But we are getting closer

They are only that because klopp made them that.

 

[Jippy]

That's a rare opinion. Maybe you have your reasons to say so, but it's generally agreed that Henderson would not be starting midfielder for CL champs.

Agreed by who? He's captained them in back to back UCL finals, with one win, plus a Prem. He may not be flashy, but he clearly does the job in an understated way.
Sounds like sour grapes tbh.

 

[Zen86]

Looking back with rose tinted specs a bit here. These players didn’t consistently put in world class performances, they were good players for us because they did the job they needed to do in a successful team.

 

[adexkola]

You hear that @R.N7? John O'Shea was world class

 

[RedBanker]

Agreed by who? He's captained them in back to back UCL finals, with one win, plus a Prem. He may not be flashy, but he clearly does the job in an understated way.
Sounds like sour grapes tbh.

Yeah. Sour grapes for those who refuse to give Klopp credit for transforming Henderson.

 

[RedBanker]

They are only that because klopp made them that.

But it's not fashionable to admit it.

 

[2cents]

Think the OP underrates Park and Fletcher.

 

[ole@thewheel]

If you want all of your players to perform to 100% of their abilities you have to have a consistency in your playing system. Players like Winjaldum & Henderson or Fellaini for Everton all look/looked better than they are because they had a consistent system they implemented for years with their teams.

Looking at Ole, he approaches games trying to adapt to the opposition, so we play in different system each time, pretty much. SAF used to do it too, by the end of his reign (Queiroz influence?). Both SAF and Ole try to use various skills of their players that play to their strengths to shape their play i.e. SAF used Park Ji Sung when he needed energy and hustle in the games, Anderson when he needed energy in the middle/support Rooney due to double markings on the wide positions etc.

While Ole hasn't found his "specialty" players yet, recent transfers of Telles and VDB seem to indicate that approach. Both players different of what we have, that can influence certain games given their skills.

 

[dal]

I think Ole has definitely done it with Fred, he was a nothing player when Mourinho was in charge.

He’s got some outstanding performances out of Mctominay.

He’s nurtured Rashford into what I believe after this season will be a world class player.

I think we are doing it, I mean I know Martial can be very good on his day anyway but last season some of his performances and work rate, it had to be coach in-stilled belief .

This is the closest we have been to a SAF squad since SAF left and we have done it letting so-called worldies like Sanchez and Lukaku leave.

Essentially in a nutshell to get these types of world class performances from ordinary players you need a world class man manager, brilliant team spirit and most importantly driven players which allows them to play above their station.

 

[Harry190]

When you play as a team, as a true collective, the flaws disappear.

 

[noodlehair]

You don't extract world class performances from average players.

Sir Alex was a great motivator and commanded high standards and respect for sure, but he also just played people to their strengths. Well mostly. He knew Park was a workhorse so he'd play him in the big games to be both an extra defensive and attacking player at the same time. He'd put Gibson in the team just to have shots.

It's also easier to look good in a succesful team that already has world class players in it. Fletcher looked a lot better playing with the likes of Giggs, Carrick, Scholes, etc. Than he did if you stuck him in midfield with O'Shea.

Also sometimes Sir Alex got it wrong. O'Shea didn't look very good when we stuck him up front against Bayern Munich. Macheda didn't look much use when we put him on the wing. Jones and Smalling didn't look much good as fullbacks. Bebe.

We mainly just had a better core of a team and that dragged everyone else up a level I think. Similar thing at Liverpool now. They have a quality keeper, a quality centreback in Van Dijk (look how much shakier the rest of their defenders look without him), good midfielders and high level forwards. The bits you fit around that then look better because they have more freedom and less weight/pressure on them. Trent keeps getting praised as the best fullback "In the world" but he can't even get in the England team and defends like he should be at West Brom at times. It's just that when he plays for Liverpool he mainly has to worry about being the spare man in an attack. If he fecks up defensively it might just mean they win 4-1 instead of 4-0. If he was playing for Spurs it would mean drawing 1-1 instead of winning and Jose would end up dropping him.

 

[Tarrou]

It was SAF

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You don't.

Even with those players we generally had better players than our opponents and I wouldn't say those performances were "world class" either. However of course it takes a great manager to maintain consistency with merely good players. At the same time it has to be said that the likes of Fletcher and Park were really good footballers. By any standards, other than those comparing them to Rooney, Ronaldo and co, they were excellent players. Intelligently, technical good, terrific engines, good passers, good movement, these are import facets in any midfield. Would love to have both in our current team.

The point is that you need good players to produce good football. But of course having the right manager, you can raise the level of the collective to something special by creating a system/mentality/tactic/culture, the stuff that goes beyond individualism, that consistently delivers and brings the very best out of everybody. But it's not true that average players can produce title winning football. It's an amomaly if it happens. Even when Leicester won the league, it took a poor league, them to be full of a one-time doze of self belief/winning mentality and some top players people didn't realise they had in Vardy (for the PL at least), Kante and Mahrez. But again, that's a rare occurance.