How good was Paul Scholes?

Blatzo

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I definitely started watching football after Scholes's prime years had passed.

But, one question I always had about Scholes is, how he is regarded as one of the greatest midfielder of all time, when his tackling was average at the most?
To question Paul Scholes' ability as a midfielder based on him having average tackling is like questioning a Lamborghini as a car for being difficult to put a baby seat in to.

Putting so much stock into "ones ability to get stuck in and make a tackle" is everything that is wrong with English football and has probably got a lot to do with the reason why he was left out of the England squad so often (the other reason being him not actually wanting to travel and be away from his home/family).

The irony is that Scholes wasn't even a "bad tackler." It's blatantly obvious that Scholes deliberately put in robust and "clumsy" challenges, perhaps as a way of compensating for his stature. Opponents have said as much and labeled it as one of the reasons they hated playing against him. The fact that he will forever have that written off as accidental somehow only adds to his genius.
 

wolvored

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I don't buy these time period arguments. Scholes wouldn't have done well in most of the older years because the level of footballers was lower and no one could keep up with his passing and movement. Robson would bomb in the Barca team as technically not good enough (despite being good in that area) but that doesn't take away from how great he was in his era and for the teams he played in.
What Im saying with the pitches he wouldnt have had the range of passes he had in those days. Consequently Robbo would have been an even better player playing on the billiard table pitches they have had over the last 15 years or so. The best player I saw was Robbo, we all have different opinions of course.
 

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To question Paul Scholes' ability as a midfielder based on him having average tackling is like questioning a Lamborghini as a car for being difficult to put a baby seat in to.

Putting so much stock into "ones ability to get stuck in and make a tackle" is everything that is wrong with English football and has probably got a lot to do with the reason why he was left out of the England squad so often (the other reason being him not actually wanting to travel and be away from his home/family).

The irony is that Scholes wasn't even a "bad tackler." It's blatantly obvious that Scholes deliberately put in robust and "clumsy" challenges, perhaps as a way of compensating for his stature. Opponents have said as much and labeled it as one of the reasons they hated playing against him. The fact that he will forever have that written off as accidental somehow only adds to his genius.
This doesn't get said enough. He wasn't a bad tackler, he just had this burning desire to leave a mark on people sometimes. Call it competitiveness but in a non sedistic way than some others.
 

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Amazing hybrid of CAM, playmaker, and deep-playmaker. He had it all, tiki-taka, range-of passing, ping-pong passes all over the pitch, shooting from distance, running from deep, goals, poaching, core-centre of attacks, that trademark turn of his beating his markers, birdeye-view visions, unpredictable creativity, controlling tempo of games, fighting spirit... an epitome of inspiration and amazement. But more importantly...

Can play in midfield two, despite his defensive flaws. lol
Mr. Pogba are you watching?
 

Tapori

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For me the key is what the players say about you....not so much at retirement as everyone says nice things then...I'm sure you can dig out nice comments from the world stars when lampard or gerrard retired.

But when asked pretty much in every interview the best player the utd ex pros say they have played with is Scholes. And we used to have a team with plenty to choose from. Also often the opposition say the same I remember Henry annoying carragher on MNF one time by saying scholes over gerrard.

Scholes ability to dictate the pace of a match his passing ability (short, long, quick or slow) was exceptional. You don't see this in stats.
 

RooneyLegend

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For me the key is what the players say about you....not so much at retirement as everyone says nice things then...I'm sure you can dig out nice comments from the world stars when lampard or gerrard retired.

But when asked pretty much in every interview the best player the utd ex pros say they have played with is Scholes. And we used to have a team with plenty to choose from. Also often the opposition say the same I remember Henry annoying carragher on MNF one time by saying scholes over gerrard.

Scholes ability to dictate the pace of a match his passing ability (short, long, quick or slow) was exceptional. You don't see this in stats.
You could dig out comments even from our own manager about Gerrard when he was playing...It's crazy to think he only got complements when he retired.
 

RooneyLegend

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It's a case of what the team needs more than anything. Gerrard could dominate games, where as Scholes could control them, well at least in the second half of his career.
 

POF

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This doesn't get said enough. He wasn't a bad tackler, he just had this burning desire to leave a mark on people sometimes. Call it competitiveness but in a non sedistic way than some others.
He was without a doubt one of the worst tacklers I have ever seen. He often got away with a booking because the tackles were so poorly executed the refs felt sorry for him.
 

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He was without a doubt one of the worst tacklers I have ever seen. He often got away with a booking because the tackles were so poorly executed the refs felt sorry for him.
yeah, more than once he was lucky to not to get second yellow card for late tackle from behind. Sometimes it was cringe how late some of those tackles was.
 

Prodigal7

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He was without a doubt one of the worst tacklers I have ever seen. He often got away with a booking because the tackles were so poorly executed the refs felt sorry for him.
You're missing my point. He lacked discipline but not the ability to tackle.
 

POF

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You're missing my point. He lacked discipline but not the ability to tackle.
No, I just disagree with it. It wasn't some clever ploy to pretend he couldn't tackle so he could get away with an occasional bad one.

He was just utterly and hilariously useless at tackling.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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Despite lack of height, he had great movements in the box, positioning, and finishing skills. Later he developed his passing skills, and one touch ball movement to get away from his marker. A really underrated skill which is rarely seen nowadays.
He had that to burn in the youth teams as a youngster...he didn't just develop it in his later years...
 

Jaybomb

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One of the best Premier League players ever.

But some people would have you believe he was on the level of Xavi and Zidane. Just no.
 

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One of the best Premier League players ever.

But some people would have you believe he was on the level of Xavi and Zidane. Just no.
Erm yes he was. Ironic how you choose those two players who both have said Scholes is the best player they ever played against:lol:
 

amolbhatia50k

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No, I just disagree with it. It wasn't some clever ploy to pretend he couldn't tackle so he could get away with an occasional bad one.

He was just utterly and hilariously useless at tackling.
He wasnt anywhere near as bad defensively as people make out.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Scholes would be absolutely perfect for us right now. Incredible midfielder. One of the greats.
 

David_azul16

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One of the best players of his generation, without a doubt. Just one step below the history's greatest.
 

Hughie77

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Best vision, scanner of a game I've seen, he always new what pass was on or not on before he got the ball, the front men new he'd find them . And could he strike a shot. Not bad in air iether. His asma held him back, if it was to hot he struggled sometimes. Retired to early in international level.... 99 final was a big miss for him, but 08 wasn't.
How much would he cost today?
 

Darwin09

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Not sure what this nonsense about him not being on the level of a Xavi. Xavi never scored the goals Scholes did. Xavi also happened to be part of an amazing generation of Spanish players + Lionel Messi.

This United team is crying out for a midfielder that can truly control the tempo of a match and chip in with long range goals like Scholes did consistently. We just haven't had that sort of player since he left. Rooney initially looked like he could drop into that role but never became a midfielder. Pogba's finishing is nowhere near Scholes' and I don't remember Scholes disappearing from matches the way Pogba does.
 

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Not sure what this nonsense about him not being on the level of a Xavi. Xavi never scored the goals Scholes did. Xavi also happened to be part of an amazing generation of Spanish players + Lionel Messi.

This United team is crying out for a midfielder that can truly control the tempo of a match and chip in with long range goals like Scholes did consistently. We just haven't had that sort of player since he left. Rooney initially looked like he could drop into that role but never became a midfielder. Pogba's finishing is nowhere near Scholes' and I don't remember Scholes disappearing from matches the way Pogba does.
Completely agree. Had Scholes been German, Spanish or Brazilian, he would have won it all in international competitions as well and would be seen as a top 5 midfielder of all time for sure.
 

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fecking brilliant. How easy he made football look you sometimes think why more players cannot be like him but then again that was the genius in him.
 

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Not sure what this nonsense about him not being on the level of a Xavi. Xavi never scored the goals Scholes did. Xavi also happened to be part of an amazing generation of Spanish players + Lionel Messi.

This United team is crying out for a midfielder that can truly control the tempo of a match and chip in with long range goals like Scholes did consistently. We just haven't had that sort of player since he left. Rooney initially looked like he could drop into that role but never became a midfielder. Pogba's finishing is nowhere near Scholes' and I don't remember Scholes disappearing from matches the way Pogba does.
Actually Xavi is the best dictating CM of that generation, followed by Pirlo, then Scholes. I'm sorry.
 

POF

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He wasnt anywhere near as bad defensively as people make out.
There is much more to being good defensively than tackling. Especially towards the end of Scholes' career, football had changed and there was far less tackling in the game. It was a positive for him because he was really bad at it.

Scholes would be absolutely perfect for us right now. Incredible midfielder. One of the greats.
I completely agree. Scholes in midfield with Pogba and Matic would be a fantastic combination and it would add so much control to United's play.
 

POF

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Not sure what this nonsense about him not being on the level of a Xavi. Xavi never scored the goals Scholes did. Xavi also happened to be part of an amazing generation of Spanish players + Lionel Messi.

This United team is crying out for a midfielder that can truly control the tempo of a match and chip in with long range goals like Scholes did consistently. We just haven't had that sort of player since he left. Rooney initially looked like he could drop into that role but never became a midfielder. Pogba's finishing is nowhere near Scholes' and I don't remember Scholes disappearing from matches the way Pogba does.
The first comment amazed me but after reading the second it all made sense.

Dismissing Xavi's achievements due to the players he played alongside is utter nonsense. He was one of the key players (if not the key player) in transforming both Barcelona and Spain into dominant forces in European and World football. He was absolutely pivotal to how they played and should go down in history as one of the best midfield players of all time.

Scholes came into a United side that were already dominant in England and was part of his own golden generation of English players. He retired from international football because he couldn't get in the team in his favoured position.

What separates the good from the great or the great from the elite in that position is game management, being able to control the game and footballing intelligence. Watching Xavi play it was obvious he had that in abundance. Scholes had those qualities but nowhere near the same level. As for Rooney . . . . .

Listening to Xavi speak about the game even now his footballing intelligence is still clearly evident. Listening to Scholes "get it wide and cross it into Rooney" just reaffirms this.
 

Adnan

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Liverpool fan asking who was better between Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard..
 

diplomat

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Liverpool fan asking who was better between Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard..
Henry said it as well. I saw John Terry almost saying it as well, whilst saying Lampard of course, but in his own words, Scholes could do some technical stuff out of this world.
 

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whatwha

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Scholes was fecking awesome. He'd transform this current team.
 

noodlehair

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The first comment amazed me but after reading the second it all made sense.

Dismissing Xavi's achievements due to the players he played alongside is utter nonsense. He was one of the key players (if not the key player) in transforming both Barcelona and Spain into dominant forces in European and World football. He was absolutely pivotal to how they played and should go down in history as one of the best midfield players of all time.

Scholes came into a United side that were already dominant in England and was part of his own golden generation of English players. He retired from international football because he couldn't get in the team in his favoured position.

What separates the good from the great or the great from the elite in that position is game management, being able to control the game and footballing intelligence. Watching Xavi play it was obvious he had that in abundance. Scholes had those qualities but nowhere near the same level. As for Rooney . . . . .

Listening to Xavi speak about the game even now his footballing intelligence is still clearly evident. Listening to Scholes "get it wide and cross it into Rooney" just reaffirms this.
Saying Scholes retired from England because he couldn't get in the team is slightly dishonest. The entire England team was mismanaged and continued to be after he retired. He wasn't the only player to massively underperform for England...in fact, nearly every England player at that time under performed.

Scholes was a key part of a United team that was recognised as one of the best in the world, on more than one occasion was the best in the world. He did that over a period where the team was rebuilt several times, which also makes the idea he came into an already succesful side somewhat dishonest. The two worst seasons the team had in that period happened to coincide with the two Scholes spent a lot of being injured. When United won the league foor the first time in 3 years in 2007, it coincided with Scholes returning from injury and being probably the most important player outside of Ronaldo. Not a coincidence.

Scholes went from playing alongside Keane, Butt, Giggs, Beckham, Veron etc...to Carrick, Fletcher, Hargreaves etc. He still showed the same abillity to dictate games. He coud even do it alongside John O'Shea. I'm not doubting Xavi could do this, but it doesn't fit in very well with the idea that Scholes couldn't possiblly hold his own with someone like Xavi.

As for football intelligence, very recently Xavi was harping on about his time at Barcelona, and dismissing any team who don't play like Barcelona as teams who don't play football. That is just complete ignorance rather than intelligence. Particularly when a team from his own country who play very differently to Barcelona have deservedly won the last two European cups and basically dominated world football for 4 years. Scholes hardly comes across as insightful when he opens his mouth but I've yet to hear anything as daft as this from him. The point being, you can't measure in game intelligence from the bollocks an ex player spouts after they retire.

This isn''t a dig at Xavi but just callling up some miisguided stuff. I don't know who was better of the two. I don't really care. I would say Scholes but because I watched him more. They guy was not only amazing at football, but had basically an 8 year spell of never ever having a bad game...playing at pretty much the highest possible level.I don't have anythhing to discredit the idea Xavi did the samme apart from that I didn't personally watch him do it every week so can't testify to it.

They'll both go down as great players as they were great player for their teams, at a time when those teams were great teams. There isn't really much point in belittling one to try and big up the other. If you asked them what they thought of each other as players I doubt you'd get anything less than complete respect and appreciation.
 

bpet15

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I’d go as far to say, if Scholes had a stepover as part of his arsenal, he would be talked about as one of the greatest players ever.

For me, he was simply the most fundamentally great footballer I have ever seen - with an eye for the spectacular at times.
 
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langster

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Sir Alex also said Phil Jones could be our greatest ever player.

Just goes to show you that opinions mean feck all on the grand scheme of things. Even if they’re said by the pros.

The fact is, Scholes wasn’t even close to Zidane. He was better than Lampard and Gerrard though.

What are you on about? Some of the world's best players and coaches who have all played against Scholes or witnessed him first hand have said they think he was the best they have played against. Yet you, on a football forum argue against them?

Well done. Good for you. I watched him his whole career and I thought he was world class, and so do the professionals he played against. I will take their word over yours. How you have the balls to say their opinions don't count is hilarious. How is yours more valid?

Zidane and Xavi say Scholes was the best they played against and Socrates said he could have played for Brazil but @Jaybomb on the Caf disagrees. Yeah ok. Whatever :lol: ffs.
 

POF

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Saying Scholes retired from England because he couldn't get in the team is slightly dishonest. The entire England team was mismanaged and continued to be after he retired. He wasn't the only player to massively underperform for England...in fact, nearly every England player at that time under performed.

Scholes was a key part of a United team that was recognised as one of the best in the world, on more than one occasion was the best in the world. He did that over a period where the team was rebuilt several times, which also makes the idea he came into an already succesful side somewhat dishonest. The two worst seasons the team had in that period happened to coincide with the two Scholes spent a lot of being injured. When United won the league foor the first time in 3 years in 2007, it coincided with Scholes returning from injury and being probably the most important player outside of Ronaldo. Not a coincidence.

Scholes went from playing alongside Keane, Butt, Giggs, Beckham, Veron etc...to Carrick, Fletcher, Hargreaves etc. He still showed the same abillity to dictate games. He coud even do it alongside John O'Shea. I'm not doubting Xavi could do this, but it doesn't fit in very well with the idea that Scholes couldn't possiblly hold his own with someone like Xavi.

As for football intelligence, very recently Xavi was harping on about his time at Barcelona, and dismissing any team who don't play like Barcelona as teams who don't play football. That is just complete ignorance rather than intelligence. Particularly when a team from his own country who play very differently to Barcelona have deservedly won the last two European cups and basically dominated world football for 4 years. Scholes hardly comes across as insightful when he opens his mouth but I've yet to hear anything as daft as this from him. The point being, you can't measure in game intelligence from the bollocks an ex player spouts after they retire.

This isn''t a dig at Xavi but just callling up some miisguided stuff. I don't know who was better of the two. I don't really care. I would say Scholes but because I watched him more. They guy was not only amazing at football, but had basically an 8 year spell of never ever having a bad game...playing at pretty much the highest possible level.I don't have anythhing to discredit the idea Xavi did the samme apart from that I didn't personally watch him do it every week so can't testify to it.

They'll both go down as great players as they were great player for their teams, at a time when those teams were great teams. There isn't really much point in belittling one to try and big up the other. If you asked them what they thought of each other as players I doubt you'd get anything less than complete respect and appreciation.
I loved Paul Scholes as a footballer. During his career I always felt he was very underrated and I rated him a lot higher than the general public and media. He was an outstanding player who was fantastic in two different positions for the club over a decorated career. But much like Rio Ferdinand, I think his career is remembered more fondly in hindsight than it was at the time.

On the national team, I do agree he was mismanaged and much like Carrick was drastically underused in favour of more high profile players (Gerrard and Lampard). But, if he was one of the greatest midfielders of all time, would he have been dropped or played out of position? Would any Spain, France or Italy manager drop Xavi, Zidane or Pirlo when they were at their peak?

Scholes did come in to an already successful side. He was in and out of the team in 1999 when the club won the treble, so much so that Keane being suspended for the final was a huge story and Scholes missing it was hardly even news.

I don't agree that he dictated the play in all of those teams. When he played with Keane, Beckham, Giggs, Butt and Veron he was an attacking midfield player. Keane was the one who controlled the tempo of that team - to the detriment of Veron actually. Scholes was a far superior technician to Keane with much better range in his passing but Keane was better at managing and controlling a game than Scholes.

He did play more of a controlling midfield role later in his career next to Carrick, Fletcher etc but the midfield was very much the weak link in that side. The success of the team was based on Ronaldo (with Rooney and Tevez) and the best defence in the league. Yes, he was an excellent player in that side but nowhere near the level of influence of Vidic or Ronaldo.

Yes, Xavi showed a blinkered view of football and feels it should be played a certain way. Maybe that is ignorance or maybe it's a steadfast belief that the principles he had to be the heartbeat of one of the best ever teams are the best. It might mean he will never be able to manage Stoke but it meant he could run the midfield at Barcelona.

I have no doubt Xavi has great respect for Scholes and vice versa. Scholes was a great player, similar in style to Xavi and was a major influence for United over a long period of time. Maybe if he was Spanish and played for Barca he would have been as good as Xavi. But he isn't and he wasn't.

In a 7 year spell, Xavi won 5 titles, 3 champions leagues and 3 major international tournaments and was in the best 2-3 players in all of those sides. He was absolutely pivotal to how those team played.

Scholes was a fantastic player for United over a long period of time but never had the same level of influence over the team that Xavi had at Barca.

I am in no way running down Scholes to praise Xavi. Just stating my opinion of both as footballers. Scholes was great but Xavi was an elite level player.
 

Varun

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What are you on about? Some of the world's best players and coaches who have all played against Scholes or witnessed him first hand have said they think he was the best they have played against. Yet you, on a football forum argue against them?

Well done. Good for you. I watched him his whole career and I thought he was world class, and so do the professionals he played against. I will take their word over yours. How you have the balls to say their opinions don't count is hilarious. How is yours more valid?

Zidane and Xavi say Scholes was the best they played against and Socrates said he could have played for Brazil but @Jaybomb on the Caf disagrees. Yeah ok. Whatever :lol: ffs.
Opinions mean feckall, even coming from pros but I'm going to laugh at yours and post mine as a fact.
 

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Paul scholes' tackles from behind were deliberate. This is to let opponents and future opponents know that he will not let it go easily and will tackle hard. Opponents became afraid of him even when he was in defence mode which is why Scholes can be said to be even better than Zidane because he is willing to do any dirty work.