How good was Ronaldo #9?

Peyroteo

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Put simply - outside of goalscoring C Ronaldo isn't exceptional at anything, especially when judged against 'Greatest of all Time' standards. He can't run a game like the others could.
The problem is that Cristiano's greatest strengths aren't exactly what the average fan romanticizes about. The fans judge most forwards on their goals, their decision making and how good they are on the ball. Passing, scoring and dribbling aren't the 3 things that matter for a forward in football though. Athleticism, counter attacking play, poaching, making good runs, crossing, aerial threat, off the ball movement, etc... Not only these qualities but their consequences. Cristiano's aerial threat doesn't result only in goals, but also defensive clearances on set pieces, it means there's a player you can hoof the ball to without risky build up play, it makes space for other attackers in the box both in set pieces and open play and it makes wing play a lot more effective meaning the opponents can't simply close down the middle. Having someone with his aerial ability is a major advantage in football and one that most managers love to have in a player but when people compare the greatest players with eachother it barely comes up. It's the same for crossing or even counter attacks, he's probably the greatest counter attacking threat to ever play the game, his speed over large distances and his intelligent movement makes it a nightmare to play a high line against and it means the opponents can't overcommit people forward but this doesn't get talked about while 'running the game' is. I simply don't get why running the game is so important, if in the future there's a guy like Inzaghi that scores over 2000 goals by scoring 5 goals per match, leads his teams to huge successes both at club and country level, can't he be the greatest of all time and be put alongside Pelé or Maradona too? It seems like either you're a certain type of player or you'll never be a part of the discussion.

People mention Cristiano not having the vision and passing of Messi or Maradona but nobody seems to care they are pretty much irrelevant in the air while Cristiano is one of greatest headers of the ball ever, if not the best. And while Cristiano certainly isn't as good of a passer and dribbler as them he's still very good at it. Messi is talked about as one of the greatest creative players ever and Cristiano as a player who creates little for the team and yet since Cristiano started out in Manchester that huge difference in passing and vision has had as direct impact a difference of 0.095 assists per game between them. That's pretty much 1 more assist for Messi every 10 games.

And while their goalscoring records are similar that isn't really true for the latter stages of the Champions League and I do think this makes Cristiano Ronaldo not only the better goalscorer of the two, but the greatest goalscorer of all time since Pelé's numbers are massively skewed (he scored 700+ official goals but plenty of them were in a regional brazilian league). This is the biggest stage in world football against the best opponents and defenses and Messi's numbers go down while Cristiano's are always there. I'll take the player who's more likely to decide the big Champions League games over the player with one extra assist every 10 games who runs the game. I have no problem if someone prefers Messi and think it's a fair opinion either way but saying Cristiano can't be up there with Pelé, Maradona or Messi because he doesn't have the right skill set is just wrong for me.
 

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Put simply - outside of goalscoring C Ronaldo isn't exceptional at anything, especially when judged against 'Greatest of all Time' standards. He can't run a game like the others could.
Cristiano is exceptional at shooting/heading and movement to get into shooting position. Perfecting these things is enough to be viewed as higher than Ronaldo de Lima overall, because he does it at the absolute highest level and does it consistently, which R9 wasn't able to do because of many reasons, main one being his injury. That being said, R9 at his peak is superior to any version of Cristiano Ronaldo, and at least on par with every other all time great, maybe except for Maradona and Messi, who I believe are capable of something more.

Ronaldo is viewed a bit like Senna in F1. He was so special that no matter the fact that he didn't have a complete career, people still view him as an all time great because of the sheer talent and peak level of play that he showed when in his best days. The talent was so big, that people just refuse to believe such a high level of skill and mastery would have suddenly faded under normal circumstances.
 
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Peyroteo

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Goals per game doesn't tell the whole story. At all.

During the 90's Seria A was crazy good and stacked with excellent teams.

Take the European cup finals during the 90's:

CL:

90' Milan - W
92' Sampdoria F
93' Milan - F
94' Milan - W
95' Milan - F
96' Juve - W
97' Juve - F
98' Juve - F

UEFA:

90' Juve - W , Fio - F
91' Inter - W , Roma - F
92' Torino - F
93' Juve - W
94' Inter - W
95' Parma - W , Juve - F
97' Inter - F
98' Inter - W, Lazio - F
99' Parma - W
Ronaldo only went to Inter in 97 so I don't think those teams at the beginning of the decade are that relevant. If I do the same thing for Cristiano and only when he was actually playing in the league, the results are pretty similar.

CL:

2005 Liverpool - W
2006 Arsenal F
2007 Liverpool - F
2008 Manchester United- W, Chelsea - F
2009 Manchester United - F
2011 Barcelona - W
2014 Real Madrid - W, Atletico Madrid - F
2015 Barcelona - W
2016 Real Madrid - W, Atletico Madrid - F
2017 Real Madrid - W

Europa League:

2010 Atletico Madrid W
2012 Atletico Madrid W, Athletic Bilbao, F
2014 Sevilla W
2015 Sevilla W
2016 Sevilla W

Teams like Espanyol, Fulham and Middlesbrough also made the Europa League final around the same time although Cristiano wasn't in their leagues at the time.

I agree with your general point though that R9 had it harder than Cristiano or Messi, I just think it's mainly because he didn't have the team around him they have rather than the difficulty of the league. The fact there was 18 teams rather than 20 also favours CR7 and Messi though.

That's not peak Cristiano tho, and certainly didn't put the same numbers at United compared to Ronaldo at Barca playing for a better team. Messi had people kicking him, but he also had Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o, Ronaldinho, etc - players who can divert attention. Playing against Inter or Barca at the time had one single plan - stop Ronaldo and you'll take something from the game.
It's not peak Cristiano but back in 2006/07 despite not being at his best he already came second in the Ballon D'Or and only didn't win it because Kaka turned into a monster in the CL knockouts. It's true Cristiano has had more protection from the refs especially at his peak but when he didn't he dealt with it just fine. It's the same with Messi although La Liga refs have always been a bit softer than Premier League refs.

We're talking about peak here tho, not consistency. Of course when it comes to consistency both Messi and Cristiano blow everyone else (bar Pele) away.
Then we agree. Thanks for the videos by the way. I'll leave one of Romário too.


There's also this cool youtube channel called Ensina Romário (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgkbtJemDYl9ZuCCkTGukrA/videos) where they basically have top players in the world missing chances and Romário teaching them how to score. Here's a recent one with Lukaku, it's incredible the amount of goals he scored and how different they are

 

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Roma 99-00: Cafu, Aldair
Inter 99-00: Zanetti, Blanc, Panucci

Just a taster, as to the defensive strength of the teams at the time Ronaldo played in Serie A.
From the late 1990s you can throw in the likes of Desailly, Ferrara, Montero to that. And you end up with a likely unparalleled concentration of defensive talent within the same league at the same time - 3 of the top 5 right-backs of all time, the best left-back of all time, arguably the best defensive midfield destroyer of all time and the best all-round central defender of all time. It's a completely different ball game.
 

Peyroteo

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Amazing player. Here is a thought. In what order would you guys put Messi, Zidane, Ronaldinho and Ronaldo De Lima?
In terms of peak ability. Ronaldo > Messi > Cristiano > Ronaldinho > Zidane.

If it's all time greatness. Cristiano > Messi > Zidane > Ronaldo > Ronaldinho.

Messi and Cristiano still need to have a great world cup to pretty much have a perfect career. Both Portugal and Argentina aren't looking too special right now though.
 

Cal?

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I disagree. He has won the world cup twice and reached final once...three times world player of the year..one of the greatest dribblers..won 2 la liga..uefa..copa america..second highest scorer for both at world cup and for brazil.... scored a career of more than 350 goals.. the list goes on..

I mean what more do we want from a player ?
Show any kind of consistency for his clubs? Win the Champions League, actually be the topscorer in the league more than twice?
 

Cal?

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No Cal?, it wouldn't. Statistics, or more to the point - goal scoring statistics, are the main factor which elevate Cristiano Ronaldo into these discussions.

The following is an over-simplification of the debate but with Messi statistics are the icing on the cake. With Ronaldo however, they are the cake.

The 'Greatest of all Time' category has a membership of 3 in my, and I dare say - most people's, eyes; Pele, Maradona and Messi.

Cristiano Ronaldo belongs in the next tier. Perhaps he is at the head of it - time will tell I suppose, but he doesn't have the skill set to trouble the top 3. It's the skill set/ability of a player that marvels people the most and that's why Luiz Ronaldo left such an indelible mark.
That would be a very narrow world view if you only ever discuss things with people who agree with you. :rolleyes:

I'm not about to engage into another Messi v Cristiano debate, let's just say in a few months, Cristiano will have as many Ballon D'or and he deserved all of his.
 

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That would be a very narrow world view if you only ever discuss things with people who agree with you. :rolleyes:

I'm not about to engage into another Messi v Cristiano debate, let's just say in a few months, Cristiano will have as many Ballon D'or and he deserved all of his.
Especially the one for 2013.
 

Cal?

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In terms of peak ability. Ronaldo > Messi > Cristiano > Ronaldinho > Zidane.

If it's all time greatness. Cristiano > Messi > Zidane > Ronaldo > Ronaldinho.

Messi and Cristiano still need to have a great world cup to pretty much have a perfect career. Both Portugal and Argentina aren't looking too special right now though.
Messi and Argentina are making a complete mess of the easiest qualifying in the world****, whilst at least Portugal look quite safe to qualify.

**** let me explain, before everyone jumps on the Conmebol are very good argument. There are 4.9 places (whoever makes 5th are overwhelming favourites to beat New Zealand!!!) for 10 teams, 5 of them (Paraguay, Ecuador, Venezuela, Bolivia & Peru) are rather useless, Argentina somehow find themselves in 5th place. :rolleyes:
 

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The problem is that Cristiano's greatest strengths aren't exactly what the average fan romanticizes about. The fans judge most forwards on their goals, their decision making and how good they are on the ball. Passing, scoring and dribbling aren't the 3 things that matter for a forward in football though.
I guess people view passing and dribbling as more difficult to do, consistently and at an elite level.
 

Cal?

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I guess people view passing and dribbling as more difficult to do, consistently and at an elite level.
Funny how no one else seem to be able to do it as well or as consistently as he does.
 

Peyroteo

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I guess people view passing and dribbling as more difficult to do, consistently and at an elite level.
I agree with that. It's tougher and more satisfying to watch a pinpoint pass through the legs of 4 defenders than a cross into a good position, even if they both end up in a goal. It's more impressive to watch but if it's more important or not it's a difficult question to answer.
 

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Funny how no one else seem to be able to do it as well or as consistently as he does.
So far, that's a fact. I'm just opining 'why' behind how some can think to put Ronaldo above Cristiano Ronaldo in peak, and Messi above Cristiano Ronaldo in greatness.
 

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Didn't consciously watch him play as in didn't know anything significant about football at all as I was 9 years old during the 2002 WC where I first watched him without context. Then I slowly appreciated his talent more and more but still can't fully grasp it yet obviously. If he played today how much better would be than the likes of Lewandowski, Suarez, Benzema, Aguero and Ibrahimovic?

Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima was incredible.

He was unreal. He was like a freak of footballing nature.

He had pace to burn; he was the best dribbler in the world; he had a rare knack for goals; he could score with his left foot, right foot, head, from 35 yards, while poaching in the box, from blistering counter-attacks, set pieces, just name it.

He was a powerful yet extremely intelligent footballer. He had vision, impressive passing range and could cross the ball brilliantly. If he got half a yard on any defender in the world, that defender was lost. There is no better technically gifted player I know of (and that includes all the greats that quickly come to mind), neither is there any more composed in the box than he was. Free kick opportunities around the opposition's box were like penalties for Ronaldo He usually nailed them.

He was not a one club, one country player. Played and ruled in 4 different leagues. He was not just great for his clubs, he won three world cups for Brazil.

Whoever nick-named him 'The Phenomenon' got it spot on.

Only his injuries stopped him from being the GOAT. No doubt about that.
 

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Ronaldo was the complete striker imo. I'm struggling to find anything he lacked.
 

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The ultimate number 9, someone who was proper box office. One of the best of all time. Power, balance and clinical. Loved watched him play growing up. Never liked watching other teams players but he was different to the rest.
 

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Put simply - outside of goalscoring C Ronaldo isn't exceptional at anything, especially when judged against 'Greatest of all Time' standards. He can't run a game like the others could.
Erm ... mentality, heading, off the ball movement, positioning, speed, strength, stamina, consistency, and he's quite good with the ball at his feet too. He's an out and out forward who plays at the sharp end of the pitch and takes few touches when he's on the ball so he's not going to be "running games" like Maradona.
 

Kinsella

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The problem is that Cristiano's greatest strengths aren't exactly what the average fan romanticizes about.
Those things that the average football fan romanticises about don't come out of thin air though. They exist for a reason and I'd suggest it stems from the innate understanding most fans have regarding what constitutes the highest form of play or expression in the game.

That C Ronaldo's greatest strengths don't correlate with that is just the way it is, and the 'problem' only exists for those who try to push him into a position alongside those other 3, or shall we say 2, players. The passage of time isn't going to change that either.

& just for the record - I have watched the majority of his career and have no bias against him.

The fans judge most forwards on their goals, their decision making and how good they are on the ball. Passing, scoring and dribbling aren't the 3 things that matter for a forward in football though. Athleticism, counter attacking play, poaching, making good runs, crossing, aerial threat, off the ball movement, etc... Not only these qualities but their consequences. Cristiano's aerial threat doesn't result only in goals, but also defensive clearances on set pieces, it means there's a player you can hoof the ball to without risky build up play, it makes space for other attackers in the box both in set pieces and open play and it makes wing play a lot more effective meaning the opponents can't simply close down the middle. Having someone with his aerial ability is a major advantage in football and one that most managers love to have in a player but when people compare the greatest players with each other it barely comes up. It's the same for crossing or even counter attacks, he's probably the greatest counter attacking threat to ever play the game, his speed over large distances and his intelligent movement makes it a nightmare to play a high line against and it means the opponents can't overcommit people forward but this doesn't get talked about while 'running the game' is.
I agree that he's one of the greatest counter attacking threats there has been in the game, and he is certainly the greatest aerial threat I've ever seen.

I simply don't get why running the game is so important, if in the future there's a guy like Inzaghi that scores over 2000 goals by scoring 5 goals per match, leads his teams to huge successes both at club and country level, can't he be the greatest of all time and be put alongside Pelé or Maradona too? It seems like either you're a certain type of player or you'll never be a part of the discussion.
Because running a game is the most difficult thing to do in the game.

People mention Cristiano not having the vision and passing of Messi or Maradona but nobody seems to care they are pretty much irrelevant in the air while Cristiano is one of greatest headers of the ball ever, if not the best.
The game is called football, not headball. That said he's definitely the greatest header of a ball that I've seen.

And while Cristiano certainly isn't as good of a passer and dribbler as them he's still very good at it.
True, but I've seen many many players better than him at both and whilst he was once a great dribbler he was never a great passer.

Messi is talked about as one of the greatest creative players ever and Cristiano as a player who creates little for the team and yet since Cristiano started out in Manchester that huge difference in passing and vision has had as direct impact a difference of 0.095 assists per game between them. That's pretty much 1 more assist for Messi every 10 games.
'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics'

I'll take the player who's more likely to decide the big Champions League games over the player with one extra assist every 10 games who runs the game. I have no problem if someone prefers Messi and think it's a fair opinion either way but saying Cristiano can't be up there with Pelé, Maradona or Messi because he doesn't have the right skill set is just wrong for me.
That's fair enough.
 
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Kinsella

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Cristiano is exceptional at shooting/heading and movement to get into shooting position. Perfecting these things is enough to be viewed as higher than Ronaldo de Lima overall, because he does it at the absolute highest level and does it consistently, which R9 wasn't able to do because of many reasons, main one being his injury.
Yeah off the movement, positioning and awareness are all included under the umbrella of goalscoring for me. It's not just about striking or heading the ball. I agree with the latter also.

That being said, R9 at his peak is superior to any version of Cristiano Ronaldo, and at least on par with every other all time great, maybe except for Maradona and Messi, who I believe are capable of something more.
Agreed.

Ronaldo is viewed a bit like Senna in F1. He was so special that no matter the fact that he didn't have a complete career, people still view him as an all time great because of the sheer talent and peak level of play that he showed when in his best days. The talent was so big, that people just refuse to believe such a high level of skill and mastery would have suddenly faded under normal circumstances.
I'd use Tyson instead of Senna.
 

Kinsella

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That would be a very narrow world view if you only ever discuss things with people who agree with you. :rolleyes:
Nope, most pieces I've read on the issue come to the same conclusion. Leaving Messi out of it, I can't recall many people claiming that C Ronaldo is superior to Maradona or Pele.


I'm not about to engage into another Messi v Cristiano debate, let's just say in a few months, Cristiano will have as many Ballon D'or and he deserved all of his.
He could win the next 3 Ballon D'ors and it wouldn't alter my opinion much.

But yeah, the tiresome Messi/Ronaldo debate has its own thread and it's best confined to there.
 

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I actually liked the word membership mentioned above. To a certain extent it diffuses the need for ranking which is an extremely subjective matter.

`The greatest` of all time membership...Pele..Maradona..Messi....Which I personally agree.

(The greatest in my view should include something unique that other players dont have.)

The second membership can include the likes of Ronaldo Lima..Zidane..Cristiano Ronaldo..Cruyff..Bachenbaer..
 

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Ronaldo Luís Nazário de Lima was incredible.

He was unreal. He was like a freak of footballing nature.

He had pace to burn; he was the best dribbler in the world; he had a rare knack for goals; he could score with his left foot, right foot, head, from 35 yards, while poaching in the box, from blistering counter-attacks, set pieces, just name it.

He was a powerful yet extremely intelligent footballer. He had vision, impressive passing range and could cross the ball brilliantly. If he got half a yard on any defender in the world, that defender was lost. There is no better technically gifted player I know of (and that includes all the greats that quickly come to mind), neither is there any more composed in the box than he was. Free kick opportunities around the opposition's box were like penalties for Ronaldo He usually nailed them.

He was not a one club, one country player. Played and ruled in 4 different leagues. He was not just great for his clubs, he won three world cups for Brazil.

Whoever nick-named him 'The Phenomenon' got it spot on.

Only his injuries stopped him from being the GOAT. No doubt about that.
I agree 100%.

He is already one of the best player of all time, but if it wasn't for injury he would have been the greatest ever.

It's hard to imagine Messi and Ronaldo being destroyed the way that Ronaldo was in Serie A and then just shrugging 2/3 players off and dribbling into the box and scoring.
 

Cal?

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Nope, most pieces I've read on the issue come to the same conclusion. Leaving Messi out of it, I can't recall many people claiming that C Ronaldo is superior to Maradona or Pele.

He could win the next 3 Ballon D'ors and it wouldn't alter my opinion much.

But yeah, the tiresome Messi/Ronaldo debate has its own thread and it's best confined to there.
Exactly why there's no point in arguing. :houllier:
 

Kinsella

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Exactly why there's no point in arguing. :houllier:
Nope, it wouldn't change it much for the reasons already expressed.

Your bias on the matter is extreme is any case. I recall you placing C Ronaldo alongside Muhammad Ali in terms of sporting greatness, which was one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here.
 

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he was amazing and one of the best but from the same era ramario was better . maybe the best forward i have seen in my lifetime.
 

The holy trinity 68

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I actually liked the word membership mentioned above. To a certain extent it diffuses the need for ranking which is an extremely subjective matter.

`The greatest` of all time membership...Pele..Maradona..Messi....Which I personally agree.

(The greatest in my view should include something unique that other players dont have.)

The second membership can include the likes of Ronaldo Lima..Zidane..Cristiano Ronaldo..Cruyff..Bachenbaer..
Good shout. My greatest of all time membership if that's what you are calling it would be.
Pele, Maradona, Messi, Best, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Puskas.
 

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You've lost the plot.
Career wise? It's not even close imo and Romário vs Ronaldo has been a question that's always divided Brazil, not sure what's so ridiculous about picking Romário. He was as good as he thought he was.
 

The holy trinity 68

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Career wise? It's not even close imo and Romário vs Ronaldo has been a question that's always divided Brazil, not sure what's so ridiculous about picking Romário.
Considering Romario only played at the top level for a few years. He was at PSV for 5 years in the early 90's, 2 years at Barcelona and 1 at Valencia. Valencia he made 11 appearances. Apart from that he spent his entire career floating around Brazil and the USA.

Ronaldo played for PSV as well, but he was also playing at the top level for Inter, Barcelona and Real Madrid. He is Brazils top scorer in World Cup history and also scored more goals for Brazil. So how did Romario even have a better career?
 

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Considering Romario only played at the top level for a few years. He was at PSV for 5 years in the early 90's, 2 years at Barcelona and 1 at Valencia. Valencia he made 11 appearances. Apart from that he spent his entire career floating around Brazil and the USA.

Ronaldo played for PSV as well, but he was also playing at the top level for Inter, Barcelona and Real Madrid. He is Brazils top scorer in World Cup history and also scored more goals for Brazil. So how did Romario even have a better career?
The brazilian league was a lot better than it is today (half of the WC94 squad played in Brazil) and Romario tore it to pieces, he scored for fun and ended up with more goals in official matches than Pelé. Ronaldo Fenomeno had 2 years in PSV, 1 in Barcelona and 2.5 with Inter. He was good at Madrid for a while but clearly not the player he once was while Romário kept his level for an incredible amount of years.