How much of Ole's success is Mourinho's?

[BaseFishing]

I'm not easily (if ever) offended...

And yet, this thread somehow offends me.

It's like continuing to discuss a toxic ex. Just feels icky.

 

[VeevaVee]

The only thing Jose did is allow an absolute mega boost in morale when Ole came and acted the complete opposite

 

[Steerpike]

First of, I want to be clear that I'm one who was strongly against Mourinho's appointment. In fact, I had not been posting ever since he was made manager, not even when we won the "treble". To me, Mourinho is the
antithesis of what Man Utd is, and I'm relieved as anyone when he was finally sacked.

Our recent victories where we won with less possession and less shots has elicit a lot of comments on the irony of it, that Ole's team are more success at Mourinho's football than Mourinho is at Utd.

This struck me - how much of the current defensive organisation and solidity is down to Mourinho, which Ole inherited?

Case in point, when Roberto Martinez took over Everton from Moyes back in 2013, his first season was seen as a huge success. Everton while still being solid defensively, which is a hallmark of Moyes' reign, were now also good at moving the ball forward. Everton finished that season above us for the 1st time ever since EPL started. I remembered people also using this to deride Moyes for holding Everton back (given how shite Moyes were for us during that season).

However subsequently, Martinez's Everton began to fall apart in the following seasons. It soon became apparent that Martinez has inherited a team that was very well drilled in defensive play by Moyes. Once the Martinez has fully changed Everton to his style, it was very clear that his Everton were an exact mirror of Martinez's Wigan - exciting going forward but porous at the back.

So this comes back to my title - how much of our current defensive play is down to the remnants of Mourinho's training? Will Ole be truly tested (god damn I hate myself for typing this) once he has a full preseason with the team?

I always enjoy a contrarian post - someone who goes against the grain and takes the inevitable flak - so well done! In answer to your question though, zero, nada, nothing.

It is ironic that Soskjaer's tenure has seen a significant improvement in our defence, but the reason is that he trusts them to do the job (versus Mourinho who wasted few opportunities to tell everyone how bad our defenders were). If you tell players that you believe in them, it's amazing how they respond. The United defence was the second best in the league in 2017/18: it doesn't suddenly become rubbish the following season. Mourinho was playing games and, like you, I'm pleased he's a part of our history rather than our present.

 

[POF]

It's all down to Van Gaal's foundations!

 

[edcunited1878]

Jose was able to attract Pogba and instill a hardness and context into the players not done by Moyes or LVG.

He tested the players mentally and while it was a bit toxic at times, there are players who have benefited. Also, Carrick and McKenna were introduced under Jose no matter the influence of the board/Woody on that respect.

Lindelof, Dalot, Shaw, Pogba, Matic, McTominay, Martial, Rashford, Lingard, Young, Lukaku all had significant tests and learnings under Jose...for the better. While Jose limited the players, they gained perspective of the game under Jose that has served as a part of their foundation which has lead to greener pastures under Ole thus far.

United also had a better mentality and spirit under Jose compared to Moyes and LVG. It has obviously been elevated to levels under Ole that are closer to Fergie's Era.

 

[Ekeke]

Clearly Moyes' foundations. How many times did Fellaini save Mourinho's bacon with a goal or a performance when we were dire?

 

[spwd]

Feck me how is this shit still open?

 

[glazed]

Yeah it tells us that after working under Mourinho every every manager seems like the best ever. The pattern is Mourinho leaving.

Which is what Ince said

 

[Bwuk]

Literally none of it. Mourinho had destroyed the squads spirit.

 

[glazed]

Yes.

The pattern is that he goes to clubs that spend a lot of money, with which he achieves less than is desired and is consequently sacked, then the next manager has an easy time achieving more with what Jose failed with as the new manager instantly brings a less toxic environment that the players enjoy more, so they play better.

I reckon it's a bit more complicated than that. He does seem to instill some tactical and personality qualities in the players, even as he destroys their confidence. And those qualities persist after he's gone. What does not kill you makes you stronger.

 

[lysglimt]

Ironically - quite a lot - for all the wrong reasons.

He got everyone so afraid, so mad, so annoyed - that when he was gone everyone improved their game more than they would with a different manager getting fired.

 

[Ekeke]

I reckon it's a bit more complicated than that. He does seem to instill some tactical and personality qualities in the players, even as he destroys their confidence. And those qualities persist after he's gone. What does not kill you makes you stronger.

The tactical qualities that he cant get out of the players? We looked a complete, disorganized mess under him. Its the other managers sorting that out that is making you think the players gained from it. All they gained was a manager that isnt as stubborn and better tactics.

 

[Red Dreams]

Last season.
Liverpool away turned many away.
For me Newcastle away was the straw.
he did not believe in the players anymore. Translation. He stopped believing in himself.
he could not see Manchester United beating City and Liverpool to the title.

He set out this season to be fired and achieved his goal.

The recent injuries were proof that the players had poor training and fitness.
Ole and Phelan simply made the players believe in themselves and reminded them they were playing for the greatest football club on earth.

And we now play to our strength. Let other teams worry about us.

Ole's belief reflects everything he learned from Fergie. He is also a supporter.

We struck gold several times over with him.

The future looks bright indeed.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

I suppose you could say that if it had not got so embarrassing in pressers (even results apart) I think he'd have seen the season out and then they would NEVER have given Ole the job.

So in a way … he's 100% responsible for our current success. If he'd been less of a cnut we'd be playing qualifiers for the Europa League under Southgate next August!

 

[Giggs' right foot]

He ignited some anger in the players, after going on about how shit they were, for more than a year. I think that’s what we can “thank” him for.

 

[Red Dreams]

I suppose you could say that if it had not got so embarrassing in pressers (even results apart) I think he'd have seen the season out and then they would NEVER have given Ole the job.

So in a way … he's 100% responsible for our current success. If he'd been less of a cnut we'd be playing qualifiers for the Europa League under Southgate next August!

life is strange mate.

Fergie may not have won all the trophies if not for that Mark Robins goal.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

life is strange mate.

Fergie may not have won all the trophies if not for that Mark Robins goal.

Certainly is! Getting revved for tomorrow?

 

[Gehrman]

I dont know, jose had his chelsea team in relegation form and conte took over and won the league next season. Same here ole has us in title winning form after joses freefall. Maybe jose is okay at bringing players, but terrible at bringing out the best in them.

 

[Owen06]

Anything that as a disadvantage has an advantage.
Yes mourinho was toxic and unfair with his treatment of the players at times.but one thing he should get credit for is Luke shaws mental improvement. he's more mentally strong now due to jose's treatment,even shaw himself admitted this. Another is mctominay. I don't know mourinho's real reasons for playing him, but the guys contribution has been immense lately and we have jose mourinho to thank for discovering him.

One other thing is our style. Anyone who thinks we've been very attacking contrast to Jose's reign is deluding themselves. We are playing exactly the same way we have been under Jose but with more confidence.it will help ole that the players are more familiar with his current method.

 

[reddaz71]

If Utd win a trophy and finish in the top four you can be sure Mourinho will be looking to take some credit!

 

[Stacks]

In case you needed some expert opinion here......I'll tell you.....zero. We were defensively a shambles under Jose and couldn't even Jose properly. You must really miss the guy. Almost like LVG laying the foundations

 

[superdry]

If Utd win a trophy and finish in the top four you can be sure Mourinho will be looking to take some credit!

If we don't make top four, he'll be getting "all" the credit!

 

[antohan]

OP got it wrong, nothing to do with Mourinho but LVGs foundations before him.

Not this shit again FFS

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

None.

 

[::sonny::]

Zero

 

[hkjack]

Jose was able to attract Pogba and instill a hardness and context into the players not done by Moyes or LVG.

I think Pogba was not attached by Jose, he was attracted by treble wage given by United

 

[GM K]

I always enjoy a contrarian post - someone who goes against the grain and takes the inevitable flak - so well done! In answer to your question though, zero, nada, nothing.

It is ironic that Soskjaer's tenure has seen a significant improvement in our defence, but the reason is that he trusts them to do the job (versus Mourinho who wasted few opportunities to tell everyone how bad our defenders were). If you tell players that you believe in them, it's amazing how they respond. The United defence was the second best in the league in 2017/18: it doesn't suddenly become rubbish the following season. Mourinho was playing games and, like you, I'm pleased he's a part of our history rather than our present.

I was going to point that out. In his (Jose's) first season here, our defence conceded only one goal less than City's to make it the second best defence in the league. In his second season, it was also the second best defence. We came second that season because he had improved our attack by bringing in Lukaku and slightly changing the way we were playing. In his first season, we were almost entirely reliant on Zlatan.

You were right, Jose was being too dramatic early this season. It was for good reason though. We needed to improve the defence from an attacking sense to move up to that next level. I agreed then and still do now that we need to invest in our defence even though they have significantly improved under Ole. To become the very best, which is what United is all about, we need to crank things up a bit more. The problem with Jose was that he went full tantrum mode when Ed refused to play ball and in the end, lost the dressing room. The players simply stopped playing for him.

I like to separate issues. To say Jose did good in building our defence is not the same as excusing his screw ups. They are two mutually exclusive things and hate or love for him must never blind us from objective analysis.

 

[Welbeckham]

I’m disgusted that this thread even exists. None.

 

[kouroux]

Last season.
Liverpool away turned many away.
For me Newcastle away was the straw.
he did not believe in the players anymore. Translation. He stopped believing in himself.
he could not see Manchester United beating City and Liverpool to the title.

He set out this season to be fired and achieved his goal.

The recent injuries were proof that the players had poor training and fitness.
Ole and Phelan simply made the players believe in themselves and reminded them they were playing for the greatest football club on earth.

And we now play to our strength. Let other teams worry about us.

Ole's belief reflects everything he learned from Fergie. He is also a supporter.

We struck gold several times over with him.

The future looks bright indeed.

The crazy thing about this game is that we were in great scoring form and we were playing well. The cowards tactic in that game were ridiculous.

 

[duffer]

If you win the FA Cup or Champs league this season, dose Jose get a medal? He should.

 

[MDFC Manager]

The crazy thing about this game is that we were in great scoring form and we were playing well. The cowards tactic in that game were ridiculous.

That was the turning point of his reign imo.

 

[King.of.Red]

ZERO.

 

[Cockney Phil]

I hope this is the last thread about that Cnut.

The Sacked One utterly failed and dragged the squad into the mire just to get his severance money - Prize Cnut with Cnut money.

Since Juanfield last season the Cnut used every excuse including calling players useless, toxic, childish etc etc. Ole has not only had to clean up his mess as a team manager, he’s had to coach the toxins out out of the players, and he’s proven Pogba isn’t toxic under a clever manager.

There is a world of difference between being unable to do anything like the first PSG game because of on field injuries and the Seville game last season and blaming the players for not being good enough. The difference between the two men was illustrated in the second PSG game, not because we won but because Ole never gave. Ole is the first since Fergie that gets our culture.

The Sacked One lost all claims on this team after the Juanfield game before he was sacked - so the answer to the thread question is: feck all.

 

[Snow]

I think the team was tactically coached well and the fitness problems were a lot to do with injuries but Mourinho was obviously hampering the players mentally in many ways. He did manage to make Shaw a better defender. Positionally he was all over the place when Mourinho joined and often got caught out but this season he's been almost faultless.

Ole's success is his own. No one is going to take that away from him.

 

[edcunited1878]

I think Pogba was not attached by Jose, he was attracted by treble wage given by United

Yeah, Pogba never had a previous connection or interest in United.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Can't believe we have this thread in Page 1

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

This struck me - how much of the current defensive organisation and solidity is down to Mourinho, which Ole inherited?

?

None of it, to be very frank. Right now we resemble what we had under LVG defensively which is the opposite of what we had under Mourinho. We play out of the back way more. Plus we press way better defensively.

Whilst our counter attacks are crisp, and ourr passing in midfield involves alot of quick one twos when we have the ball.


Ole and Phelan deserve all the credit for that

 

[CA_vampire]

0%

 

[.Rossi]

Wonder who this was....

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Wonder who this was....

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Supposedly early of this season, during the win away vs Burnley, according to MEN.

"His Excellency", nickname of that player given by Mou in this interview.

...

Still 0%, Ole's success is all Ole's.