How Much of the Blame Should be on the Players?

[psychdelicblues]

Only De Gea would make Madrid or Barca's teams

Shaw, Smalling and Martial would maybe push a starting spot at one of the elite teams

LVG is obviously to blame but we are far aways from being an elite team in any case

Most here will more or less agree with that but cannot blame players for not being at the standard United need to be competing with the likes of Real, Barca and Bayern let alone getting into top 4. The managers job is to get the maximum out of the players he has at his disposal, or get better players.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Most here will more or less agree with that but cannot blame players for not being at the standard United need to be competing with the likes of Real, Barca and Bayern let alone getting into top 4. The managers job is to get the maximum out of the players he has at his disposal, or get better players.

I wish people would stop comparing us with those teams. We aren't and haven't been close to them for ages. Financially maybe, but bad management and recruitment in the past has widened the gap. We just need some additions to the squad and a playing style that suits what is here. Buy the players to supplement them, not more to force an unsuitable style of play on.

 

[Drifter]

32%. It would be more but Giggs cannot escape with none of the blame. Otherwise what is he there for?

Nice to see some attention focusing on the assistant manager because when Mike Phelan was in charge no one knew what he did. Then again he was not being groomed to take over.

 

[itso 7]

I don't buy in to this rigidity narrative, endless repetition doesn't make it true. Of course this is a very structured team, but structure limits certain freedoms, it gives a lot of freedoms too. Because it's structured, CB's can move into midfield or even the box, LB and RB can overlap on the wing, wide forwards can get into the box and the centre forward can drop to midfield while midfielders run in behind. But the players got to use those freedoms but they don't. They move the ball sideways not because that's part of an idea how to get throug, but because they hope the other one does have an idea how to get through.

Martial and Memphis taking on defenders does help but it's doesn't solve the problem itself. The problem is at the axis, play should be made from there, someone in midfield or centre forward should pull the strings, have imagination and set up attacks. I don't think it's the will, it's the ability. We don't need a player with the class of Iniesta, we need a player with just a bit of the vision, imagination and understanding of the game Iniesta has to make a huge difference. It's the playmaking mind that is lacking, Schweinsteiger isn't delivering, Herrera has shown signs of potential in this regard but hasn't come back from injury very well, Rooney can't hold on to the ball and Mata is one of the most unimaginative 10's I've ever seen.

There are imo three options to solve this problem:
- Herrera finds his feet very soon and develops quickly into a player that runs the show. That's not that unlikely, but his consistency is an issue.
- A technical able player with good understanding of the game and imagination is signed.
- LvG rehearses attacking patterns, and has the wide forwards always taking on their defenders so the need for spontaneity, improvisation and imagination is much smaller. A bit like against Chelsea at OT.

There is Perreira who can do the playmaking but I think another problem comes with having slow players in attack, Mata and Rooney are too slow and they can't hold the ball to bring others into play. I have seen Rooney and Mata get into promising positions but are either too weak, slow or lack the skill to convert that territorial advantage into a chance. Basically we are an unbalanced side, that imbalance has killed our attack because the other two of that quartet aren't established players, be it Martial, Memphis, Lingard or Herrera, to really carry the team in a manner Rooney could post Ronaldo. Obviously results have suffered, frustration crept in and hence the resultant rot we now see.

It's also important to understand that football players are human and the things that frustrate us, as fans, do have a worse impact on them so if some of LVG's decisions make us mad imagine what it does to them. Issues like Fellaini's continued selection, Rooney's special privileges amongst other transgressions, it's no wonder some players are now going through the motions.

 

[SteveW]

If a few players play badly you can look at them in isolation and suggest that they aren't giving their best. If the whole team is playing badly every single week you need to look at the management. It's their job to get the best out of the players.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

If a few players play badly you can look at them in isolation and suggest that they aren't giving their best. If the whole team is playing badly every single week you need to look at the management. It's their job to get the best out of the players.

That's my thinking, some players are coming back from injury Herrera, have been missing through suspension BFS. However I think this is running deeper. Even Martial who has been a star looks well out of sorts at times. We don't know how DDG and Smalling were yesterday as Sheffield United offered nothing. A lot better side and they might have been bad as well.

 

[Skills]

Why the feck do people keep on bringing up Madrid, Barcelona and Munich as a comparison? Do you need a team full of fecking superstars to just get out a CL group ahead of the likes of PSV and Wolfsburg? Not get knocked out by Middlesborough in the League Cup? Not look so fecking inept against a league 1 team at home in the FA Cup?

If that's the case, clubs like Everton/Spurs and anyone below them might as well just shut up shop and just give up. Because there's no way, they're going to get squads of that caliber.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Why the feck do people keep on bringing up Madrid, Barcelona and Munich as a comparison? Do you need a team full of fecking superstars to just get out a CL group ahead of the likes of PSV and Wolfsburg? Not get knocked out by Middlesborough in the League Cup? Not look so fecking inept against a league 1 team at home in the FA Cup?

If that's the case, clubs like Everton/Spurs and anyone below them might as well just shut up shop and just give up. Because there's no way, they're going to get squads of that caliber.

I don't know. It seriously annoys me. We think the manager is deluded, but I think some fans are deluded about out standing in football atm. Yes we have money and fans, but football wise we are falling well off the pace. It is the football that gives you kudos. The longer we go without winning something the harder it will get.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

If the players played differently from one game to the next there might be questions against members of the squad but that isn't the case. They have been focused and concentrated to a system from which they never deviate. It's the same week in week out. What LVG identifies as a problem to the press after a game is there just the same the following week. Young players come in and play immediately to the system - the squad is programmed almost like robots. There is no free play from anyone, because the system prevents freestyle.

Blaming any player for failing in a system that never changes, with the same group of players, generating the same level of results is IMO wrong. The blame for this dross is solely on the management team (all of them).

 

[DomesticTadpole]

If the players played differently from one game to the next there might be questions against members of the squad but that isn't the case. They have been focused and concentrated to a system from which they never deviate. It's the same week in week out. What LVG identifies as a problem to the press after a game is there just the same the following week. Young players come in and play immediately to the system - the squad is programmed almost like robots. There is no free play from anyone, because the system prevents freestyle.

Blaming any player for failing in a system that never changes, with the same group of players, generating the same level of results is IMO wrong. The blame for this dross is solely on the management team (all of them).

Agree wholeheartedly. Also don't agree with Giggs being groomed here as a new manager. He has become part of the problem, when he should have been kept well away from it.

 

[psychdelicblues]

I wish people would stop comparing us with those teams. We aren't and haven't been close to them for ages. Financially maybe, but bad management and recruitment in the past has widened the gap. We just need some additions to the squad and a playing style that suits what is here. Buy the players to supplement them, not more to force an unsuitable style of play on.

I agree with that. Since United got to the 3rd final in 4 Cl finals, in less then 5 years , United in european terms have gone from 1st tier to 3rd tier. The seeds of that decline were there before LVG arrived at the club. Saying that he has had 3 transfer windows and 18 months to at least arrest this decline and yet the team appears to be going backwards.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I don't buy in to this rigidity narrative, endless repetition doesn't make it true. Of course this is a very structured team, but structure limits certain freedoms, it gives a lot of freedoms too. Because it's structured, CB's can move into midfield or even the box, LB and RB can overlap on the wing, wide forwards can get into the box and the centre forward can drop to midfield while midfielders run in behind. But the players got to use those freedoms but they don't. They move the ball sideways not because that's part of an idea how to get throug, but because they hope the other one does have an idea how to get through.

Martial and Memphis taking on defenders does help but it's doesn't solve the problem itself. The problem is at the axis, play should be made from there, someone in midfield or centre forward should pull the strings, have imagination and set up attacks. I don't think it's the will, it's the ability. We don't need a player with the class of Iniesta, we need a player with just a bit of the vision, imagination and understanding of the game Iniesta has to make a huge difference. It's the playmaking mind that is lacking, Schweinsteiger isn't delivering, Herrera has shown signs of potential in this regard but hasn't come back from injury very well, Rooney can't hold on to the ball and Mata is one of the most unimaginative 10's I've ever seen.

There are imo three options to solve this problem:
- Herrera finds his feet very soon and develops quickly into a player that runs the show. That's not that unlikely, but his consistency is an issue.
- A technical able player with good understanding of the game and imagination is signed.
- LvG rehearses attacking patterns, and has the wide forwards always taking on their defenders so the need for spontaneity, improvisation and imagination is much smaller. A bit like against Chelsea at OT.

Bingo, i couldn't agree more with the bold part. There are some voices lately who state the obvious, that Mata isn't really a play maker but a second striker. But our first team has many players who are given roles on the pitch which they can not serve. Rooney, due to his poor hold up play, doesn't pose a threat in the box and therefore can't offer much as the lone forward. Mata struggles when there are no spaces and can't pull the strings in the final third, Herrera in the hole looks like a third holding player more than anything else (van Gaal's comment), Scneiderlin doesn't have the passing abilities to help with the build up play from deeper positions while Schweinsteiger and Carrick don't have the feet anymore to carry the ball forward through the lines. Plus Martial, Memphis, Lingard and the rest of the youngsters upfront are understandably not consistent yet in their performances.

I believe we signed AdM last summer to be that player but it didn't work out for various reasons. The question is what do you do until the right player(s) become available? Do you keep trying to punch through the wall or do you put the "philosophy" on ice for, let's say, a season and try to implement tactics which will suit your current squad's abilities best?

It's clear as daylight that this set of players can't perform LvG's tactics to the level that will make us title challengers. And it's not one or two players like some think, we're not even half way through the overhaul that's needed to play possession football at a top level. And of course we'll need to sign not only young talents but a couple of senior players too who'll become the leaders on the pitch because both Rooney and Mata can't adopt to this system.

I believe that some players have just given up, Mata for instance, while others start the game with the hope that it will work this time but get disappointed after 20-25 minutes and they are passengers for the remainder of the game. And while it's frustrating to see this when players like Young wear their heart on heir sleeves when they're on the pitch, it feels like it's become understood to all people- except the one that matters the most- that these players need a different strategy.

 

[jderbyshire]

I find it hard to criticize individual players, and I'm finding it especially hard to rate the players out of 10 with conviction because they are obviously stifled by LvG's tactics.

Yes, even Rooney.

It feels like the squad quality is seriously below par, given the money spent. But we can't adequately assess it until LvG's gone.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

What has been remarkable about this system is how after a game LVG identifies a problem but nothing changes. That for me is rigidity.

This question of rigidity is a little like the old 'U' test tube experiment at school. Doesn't matter how much fluid is added from one side or another, the fluids collect at the base of the tube. In effect inertia. In football if everything remains the same irrespective of opponent, players, manager and system, it indicates we have reached a point of inertia. The positive of this present system means young players know the script and keep to the agenda, making it relatively easy to swap them about. The negativity of the system is the boredom factor for fans and the exposure to more aggressive defensive counter attacking sides.

How do we change that? I don't think we can without causing serious stresses on the squad - both mental and physical. Even if we brought in a game changer or a Ronaldo they may well struggle. This is where I blame LVG, he knows that all of us are locked in to this system until April. It was the same at Bayern, the same quality of football and the same inertia. When he was sacked it was like a breath of fresh air but in fact Heynckes had to work bloody hard that summer to break the squad mindset and place it on a different mental footing.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Bingo, i couldn't agree more with the bold part. There are some voices lately who state the obvious, that Mata isn't really a play maker but a second striker. But our first team has many players who are given roles on the pitch which they can not serve. Rooney, due to his poor hold up play, doesn't pose a threat in the box and therefore can't offer much as the lone forward. Mata struggles when there are no spaces and can't pull the strings in the final third, Herrera in the hole looks like a third holding player more than anything else (van Gaal's comment), Scneiderlin doesn't have the passing abilities to help with the build up play from deeper positions while Schweinsteiger and Carrick don't have the feet anymore to carry the ball forward through the lines. Plus Martial, Memphis, Lingard and the rest of the youngsters upfront are understandably not consistent yet in their performances.

I believe we signed AdM last summer to be that player but it didn't work out for various reasons.

I think of him more as a player who can mask that problem rather than solve it, just like Robben or Messi could have masked the lack of imagination in midfield. There are players who can make things happen by themselves, but you can also make things happen when three players just pass and move, as long as they do it in an intelligent way. That's one of the main advantages of possession football, you have the initiative, and you know what you're going to do with the ball and the opponent doesn't know, they'll have to react and will be late if you play it quick. For example a step over was tried yesterday, it didn't work out, but they obviously work on it in training, you have 3 players, one does something that surprises the defenders but not the teammates, and there's a chance to shoot. There are lots of other things 3 players can do that surprises defences, but you need at least one player who initiates those moves because he has the vision and the imagination. Rooney and Mata lack that, they only initiate attacks in two, one passer and one reciever, maybe a short pass and expect it back with a one touch lay off, but that's it. Their imagination doesn't allow for a third player in one move.

The question is what do you do until the right player(s) become available? Do you keep trying to punch through the wall or do you put the "philosophy" on ice for, let's say, a season and try to implement tactics which will suit your current squad's abilities best?

It's clear as daylight that this set of players can't perform LvG's tactics to the level that will make us title challengers. And it's not one or two players like some think, we're not even half way through the overhaul that's needed to play possession football at a top level. And of course we'll need to sign not only young talents but a couple of senior players too who'll become the leaders on the pitch because both Rooney and Mata can't adopt to this system.

Maybe with 2 of the 3 options I mentioned. It's possible to train on moves like that, there obviously has been trained on it, and it will get better when they train more on it. If Herrera than also starts playing like he did before his injury, there will be a team that plays like a title challenger but it might be too late to really challenge. Put Mata on the bench and start with two wingers who take on their defender, that makes things happen too.

I believe that some players have just given up, Mata for instance, while others start the game with the hope that it will work this time but get disappointed after 20-25 minutes and they are passengers for the remainder of the game. And while it's frustrating to see this when players like Young wear their heart on heir sleeves when they're on the pitch, it feels like it's become understood to all people- except the one that matters the most- that these players need a different strategy.

They're low on confidence and if you start the match with a series of bad touches, confidence isn't coming back and playing at home becomes a disadvantage. Crowds react to players, but players react to crowds also. When Mata and Herrera were subbed, it was already too late to change the mood of the game. If the subs were right at the start of the second half and the team makes a running start and the crowd gets behind it, it could have been a much better half. In this situation it's very important to start games like against Chelsea, set the right mood to play with a sense of urgency and prevent a slip into dwelling on the ball.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

our players just dont seem able to think for themselves on a consistent basis. A reason I buy the lack of leadership argument. Surely they can all see tempoless passing makes their job infinitely harder. Yet they KEEP doing it. It isnt a philsophy issue. The ball can be kept at a much faster pace and the quicker consistently moved, the more space it will open up, accruing better results and increasing confidence and faith in the style. We saw it when we beat Southampton away and hammered Everton away. Even vs Chelsea it was there sans finishing. They just dont do it enough

 

[Minimalist]

Of course the players are acutely to blame but the manager buys them, sells them, trains them (or sets it up) and selects them.

It's the manager's responsibility overall.

When the manager continues to pick Wayne Rooney despite being dogshit all season, it has little to do with Rooney himself (even if he's Championship quality) and all to do with crap management.

 

[Spoony]

our players just dont seem able to think for themselves on a consistent basis. A reason I buy the lack of leadership argument. Surely they can all see tempoless passing makes their job infinitely harder. Yet they KEEP doing it. It isnt a philsophy issue. The ball can be kept at a much faster pace and the quicker consistently moved, the more space it will open up, accruing better results and increasing confidence and faith in the style. We saw it when we beat Southampton away and hammered Everton away. Even vs Chelsea it was there sans finishing. They just dont do it enough

Thus says LVG.

 

[dogrob]

90% of the blame with the manager. He picks the team, he motivates them, he trains them, he gives their directions

This ....................

 

[Keenst]

The majority of our team really aren't very good. We have a worse first 11 than Arsenal, City, Spurs and Chelsea(God knows what's going on there) IMO . If we don't sign anyone in January and manage to make the top 4 I'll be reasonably pleased. We can then try and get in a few stars whom we desperately need.

 

[Lentwood]

I suppose it comes down to whether people want short term "success" or long term domination

I'm not saying that we are on the path to global domination under van Gaal but I am saying that the reason we stick rigidly to this philosophy is that as every man and his dog is now pointing out, the two most successful clubs sides in Europe both employ it.

If the goal was "just finish top 4 this season, at all costs" we would surely go 4-4-2 and I expect we would probably win enough games playing simple football to finish 3rd or 4th

The problem is we would never progress past that kind of level. The obvious issue now is that the philosophy is the right one but the players are the wrong ones. So what do you do? It's a genuine dilemma. You have to bring players in but that takes time so you either have to abandon a system you know if implemented correctly will bring years of success or you have to watch this shite every week for a bit until we do get some players who fit

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Of course the players are acutely to blame but the manager buys them, sells them, trains them (or sets it up) and selects them.

It's the manager's responsibility overall.

When the manager continues to pick Wayne Rooney despite being dogshit all season, it has little to do with Rooney himself (even if he's Championship quality) and all to do with crap management.

Of course it's his responsibility, but he ccould respond that he didn't buy Mata, Fellaini and Rooney, the biggest remaining problems concerning the style of play. I can imagine why he keeps playing Rooney, because without him there is no leadership and of course there is hope he will get back in shape.

 

[Roboc7]

Like moyes he has got a lot wrong in terms of tactics and team selections but ultimately he is failing because he messed up the summer transfer window. Too many players were let go and he has left himself short in terms of quality and quantity, LVG is to blame no doubt about it.

Players on low on confidence, shoe horned into positions and being forced to play this awful and out dated philosophy. At times they could do better but I think the manger takes most of the blame, and the main fault with the players is they either aren't good enough and/or don't compliment each other rather than there being any lack of effort.

 

[apotheosis]

A sizable amount. Shit tactics deployed on a lot of shit players.

This type of illogical reasoning frustrates me. I mean really? How can our players be shit? We have better players than the vast majority of clubs, and yet so many of them play far better football, both collectively and individually. It's down to LVG to get the players he has bought or inherited, to perform within a team structure that gives them something to believe in. Subsequent improvement will follow. While he has failed miserably, i still have absolutely no doubt that another manager would get far more from the same group.

I think it's fair to suggest that many people believed that many of Spurs current players were shite, or simply not good enough under previous managers, yet remarkably, many of these same players have since improved dramatically under new direction. Why then, would it not be similar for us? Because our players are not as good as those at Spurs? surely not.

 

[RedPnutz]

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