Hunting endangered species

[Pogue Mahone]

I know this has probably been thrashed out whenever that lion (and his brother, who is also a lion) got shot but I'm listening to a really good Radiolab podcast about trophy hunting. They follow the bloke who paid over a quarter of a million dollars to shoot a black rhino. He was designated an aged male, that tend to kill younger males and rape/kill females too young to breed, so a cull benefits the herd.

All the money he paid goes into preservation and, more importantly, gives these animals a legitimate monetary value. Which means land-owners are more willing to let game live and breed on their land. The alternative being encroachment on the territory of wild animals by growing crops or farming cattle.

Bearing in mind we haven't a hope of stopping the human population from expanding and utilising more and more wilderness to generate income this all seems like a no-brainer to me. The best way to perpetuate the survival of these species is to sacrifice a small number of them for the greater good. Trophy-hunting is an important part of the conservation effort and the hunters that pump money into the system shouldn't be demonised the way people turned on that lion-killing dentist.

What says the caf?

 

[Pexbo]

I'm sure it has its benefits but I can't help but think that anyone that pays that much money to kill something so glorious must be a sociopath.

 

[11101]

You can't cater to the highest/lowest common denominator in anything. For every guy who pays 250k into conservation and kills for the greater good, how many others are seeing that as legitimising killing perfectly healthy animals or buying products derived from their bodies?

If animals need to be culled it should be done by the game keepers, not sold to the highest bidder.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm sure it has its benefits but I can't help but think that anyone that pays that much money to kill something so glorious must be a sociopath.

The thing is, their motivation is irrelevant. All that matters is the colour of their money.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You can't cater to the highest/lowest common denominator in anything. For every guy who pays 250k into conservation and kills for the greater good, how many others are seeing that as legitimising killing perfectly healthy animals or buying products derived from their bodies?

If animals need to be culled it should be done by the game keepers, not sold to the highest bidder.

Well I see it as legitimate killing of a healthy animal for starters. I doubt it has any effect on the market for products derived from their bodies. No more than the culling you refer to in your last sentence. The only difference being that raises no income, nor does it incentivise landowners to keep game reserves.

 

[Pexbo]

The thing is, their motivation is irrelevant. All that matters is the colour of their money.

Yeah I was focusing on the type of person you're encouraging more than anything. And I fully back what 29 says above, it's a game keepers job. Don't glorify it by making it something glamorous that rich people do.

 

[DOTA]

I think it's quite sensible.

He was designated an aged male, that tend to kill younger males and rape/kill females too young to breed, so a cull benefits the herd.

Though I also feel we need to educate rhinos better on the issue of consent.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah I was focusing on the type of person you're encouraging more than anything. And I fully back what 29 says above, it's a game keepers job. Don't glorify it by making it something glamorous that rich people do.

Ironically, the only way the hunters end up (in)famous is when the whole world collectively shit their pants on twitter when one of these stories breaks. By all accounts they'd prefer a low profile, if at all possible.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The good part about it is that the countries that sell these rights do need the money for their conservation efforts, including the fight against poaching. It's the lesser evil, really.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Though I also feel we need to educate rhinos better on the issue of consent.

Yeah, that was news to me too. Had no idea that black rhinos were such frat boys. No wonder they're going extinct, the horrible gits.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Ironically, the only way the hunters end up (in)famous is when the whole world collectively shit their pants on twitter when one of these stories breaks. By all accounts they'd prefer a low profile, if at all possible.

People who hunt endangered species don't deserve a low profile.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

I think it's quite sensible.

Though I also feel we need to educate rhinos better on the issue of consent.

Its the way those sexy young rhinos dress.....they are asking for it.

 

[11101]

Well I see it as legitimate killing of a healthy animal for starters. I doubt it has any effect on the market for products derived from their bodies. No more than the culling you refer to in your last sentence. The only difference being that raises no income, nor does it incentivise landowners to keep game reserves.

Who draws the line on which animals are ready to go and when? These aninals dont live in developed countries and 250k is a lot of money. Youre creating a market for something in a part of the world where people dont play by the rules.

And the biggest buyers of the products are the Chinese, who dont give a shit about whats gone into getting them.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

People who hunt endangered species don't deserve a low profile.

Why not? If they're paying huge sums of money towards keeping endangered species from going extinct with a legitimate business transaction, why is there any need for a witch-hunt?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Who draws the line on which animals are ready to go and when? These aninals dont live in developed countries and 250k is a lot of money. Youre creating a market for something in a part of the world where people dont play by the rules.

And the biggest buyers of the products are the Chinese, who dont give a shit about whats gone into getting them.

It's typically decided by the conservation authority who manage the animal population in the nature preserves where the animals are located. It's really above board stuff.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

People who illegally hunt endangered species don't deserve a low profile.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Who draws the line on which animals are ready to go and when? These aninals dont live in developed countries and 250k is a lot of money. Youre creating a market for something in a part of the world where people dont play by the rules.

Using that rationale we shouldn't fund any economic development in Africa because they're governed by corrupt wasters. It's quite a patronising attitude too.

At the end of the day these animals live in Africa. The only sustainable solution to protecting them will be with schemes set up and run under the auspices of African governments. Which is the case here.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Why not? If they're paying huge sums of money towards keeping endangered species from going extinct with a legitimate business transaction, why is there any need for a witch-hunt?

Is that what Walter Palmer was doing when he tracked and shot a lion? I don't think so.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Fixed that for you.

Any hunt is intrinsically illegal -- a cull is different, thus the post didn't need fixing.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is that what Walter Palmer was doing when he tracked and shot a lion? I don't think so.

The podcast I listened to only went into detail about the guy who shot the black rhino. Which went exactly as I outlined in the OP. He also copped a load of shit. Charming people threatening to throw his kids into a wood chipper. That sort of stuff.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

The podcast I listened to only went into detail about the guy who shot the black rhino. Which went exactly as I outlined in the OP.

Could you provide reference points, or a link? It's a really weird topic tbh, bound to be controversial and could do with context.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Any hunt is intrinsically illegal -- a cull is different, thus the post didn't need fixing.

How does that work, then? If a governing body grants you a licence to hunt, the activity is legal.

Palmer was hunting illegally, that's an entirely different scenario.

 

[11101]

Using that rationale we shouldn't fund any economic development in Africa because they're governed by corrupt wasters. It's quite a patronising attitude too.

At the end of the day these animals live in Africa. The only sustainable solution to protecting them will be with schemes set up and run under the auspices of African governments. Which is the case here.

Auctioning off infrastructure projects to the highest bidder is a bit different to auctioning off the lives of endangered species.

They can still set up sustainable schemes and have the game keepers do the culling.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Could you provide reference points, or a link? It's a really weird topic tbh, bound to be controversial and could do with context.

Yeah, sorry. Should have done that in the OP.

Story about podcast:

http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/20...r-trophy-hunting-can-aid-conservation/404350/

Podcast:

http://www.radiolab.org/story/rhino-hunter/

I think Louis Theroux came to similar conclusions in a documentary he did on this topic.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Auctioning off infrastructure projects to the highest bidder is a bit different to auctioning off the lives of endangered species.

They can still set up sustainable schemes and have the game keepers do the culling.

They can't, actually. These are poor countries.

 

[Snow]

It really depends on where you are doing the hunting and what species. For elephants it's generally not a positive thing and they dress it up by saying that the money is used for this and that. Then you've got parts in Zimbabwe where they're "populating too much". Of course them possibly being overpopulated is only relevant to the size of the land that they are "allowed" to graze on but considering that it's an alright practice to give out a hunting license for a male that can reproduce anymore.

You also have to bear in mind that all the money doesn't go where it says it goes in all the places. These are often words that people hide behind to suit their own agenda i.e. getting money for themselves. Same with the amount of money through all the worlds charities that never do what they're supposed too.

Only a few parks in Africa are doing it right. Many are still far behind.

All of this is pointless. Considering the data I've read it feels like the sci-fi novels are just around the corner because nothing at all is being done to save any of the Earth. I wonder how much the soil in the UK has got left.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Auctioning off infrastructure projects to the highest bidder is a bit different to auctioning off the lives of endangered species.

They can still set up sustainable schemes and have the game keepers do the culling.

Who funds them and how?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

How does that work, then? If a governing body grants you a licence to hunt, the activity is legal.

Palmer was hunting illegally, that's an entirely different scenario.

What the Rhino guy did (as far as I can tell) is different from what Palmer did. That was my point.

I don't agree with what the Rhino guy did though -- at least, not his moralising surrounding it. He didn't hunt for conservation, he hunted because he wanted to hunt. If it was about conservation he could have easily given the money as a donation.

 

[golden_blunder]

Since humanity could do with a cull we should hunt the hunters

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What the Rhino guy did (as far as I can tell) is different from what Palmer did. That was my point.

I don't agree with what the Rhino guy did though -- at least, not his moralising surrounding it. He didn't hunt for conservation, he hunted because he wanted to hunt. If it was about conservation he could have easily given the money as a donation.

Absolutely. However, like I said, the motivation is irrelevant other than the fact that it seems to be a much more effective way to raise money than relying on altruism alone. As well as the equally important fact that people living in Africa will treat the animals very differently as an extremely valuable resource than they will as a pest (the alternative)

 

[Raoul]

I know this has probably been thrashed out whenever that lion (and his brother, who is also a lion) got shot but I'm listening to a really good Radiolab podcast about trophy hunting. They follow the bloke who paid over a quarter of a million dollars to shoot a black rhino. He was designated an aged male, that tend to kill younger males and rape/kill females too young to breed, so a cull benefits the herd.

All the money he paid goes into preservation and, more importantly, gives these animals a legitimate monetary value. Which means land-owners are more willing to let game live and breed on their land. The alternative being encroachment on the territory of wild animals by growing crops or farming cattle.

Bearing in mind we haven't a hope of stopping the human population from expanding and utilising more and more wilderness to generate income this all seems like a no-brainer to me. The best way to perpetuate the survival of these species is to sacrifice a small number of them for the greater good. Trophy-hunting is an important part of the conservation effort and the hunters that pump money into the system shouldn't be demonised the way people turned on that lion-killing dentist.

What says the caf?

Trophy hunting is completely unnecessary since communities could easily raise similar funds by going the ecotourism route. I visit Kruger National Park in South Africa regularly and am convinced, ecotourism is a more sustainable and morally suitable choice than allowing some random fat, wealthy American to pay a large sum of money to chase a drugged up Lion on foot, then murder it for a temporary rise in his self-esteem. The communities in Africa would do well to go the eco tourism route, as there are loads of people who will pay large fees to visit the Bush and snap a few pics of wild animals.

 

[JustAFan]

Since humanity could do with a cull we should hunt the hunters

How much you willing to pay for that? Seen a few movies where rich twats paid to hunt humans. They always feck up by grabbing some former special forces guy to hunt.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

What the Rhino guy did (as far as I can tell) is different from what Palmer did. That was my point.

I don't agree with what the Rhino guy did though -- at least, not his moralising surrounding it. He didn't hunt for conservation, he hunted because he wanted to hunt. If it was about conservation he could have easily given the money as a donation.

Fair enough and I agree. He's hunting, the conservation work was done by the people who ok'd the hunt, he's just a cog in the process.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Trophy hunting is completely unnecessary since communities could easily raise similar funds by going the ecotourism route. I visit Kruger National Park in South Africa regularly and am convinced, ecotourism is a more sustainable and morally suitable choice than allowing some random fat, wealthy American to pay a large sum of money to chase a drugged up Lion on foot, then murder it for a temporary rise in his self-esteem. The communities in Africa would do well to go the eco tourism route, as there are loads of people who will pay large fees to visit the Bush and snap a few pics of wild animals.

You say that like they can't do both.

Obviously, they can and should raise money from eco-tourism as well as trophy hunting. You'll tap different markets, raise more money and save more animals with a combined approach then either in isolation.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Trophy hunting is completely unnecessary since communities could easily raise similar funds by going the ecotourism route. I visit Kruger National Park in South Africa regularly and am convinced, ecotourism is a more sustainable and morally suitable choice than allowing some random fat, wealthy American to pay a large sum of money to chase a drugged up Lion on foot, then murder it for a temporary rise in his self-esteem. The communities in Africa would do well to go the eco tourism route, as there are loads of people who will pay large fees to visit the Bush and snap a few pics of wild animals.

My concern would be that eco-tourisism would lead to increased pollution and habitat destruction on a much larger scale than limited hunts.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

My concern would be that eco-tourisism would lead to increased pollution and habitat destruction on a much larger scale than limited hunts.

Indeed. How big a carbon footprint would eco-tourists create in order to raise the $350k generated by flying one man from the US to Africa?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Indeed. How big a carbon footprint would eco-tourists create in order to raise the $350k generated by flying one man from the US to Africa?

Not to mention traipsing around the Savannah in jeeps and landrovers leaving waste everywhere they go.

 

[Pexbo]

Ironically, the only way the hunters end up (in)famous is when the whole world collectively shit their pants on twitter when one of these stories breaks. By all accounts they'd prefer a low profile, if at all possible.

I feel slightly hypocritical arguing against it in this thread, because I actually have an air rifle and I actually hunt myself. I only shoot rabbits and wood pigeons though and I know know for arguments sake a life is a life be it a rhino or a rabbit.

For me though, the sense of accomplishment comes when I'm eating the meat. It's a strange primal sensation where the meat somehow tastes better than it would from any butchers.

What I don't get is a sense of accomplishment from actually killing it and after God knows how many pigeon or rabbits I've shot I still get a sense of guilt and empathy for the poor little lifeless corpse I have to carry.

So the thought of shooting something like a Rhino, Lion or any other big "game" and then standing over it grinning away really, really doesn't sit well with me. I just can't help but think that these people are in some way psychotic and it shouldn't be encouraged.

 

[Raoul]

You say that like they can't do both.

Obviously, they can and should raise money from eco-tourism as well as trophy hunting. You'll tap different markets, raise more money and save more animals with a combined approach then either in isolation.

They could, or they could simply double down on ecotourism since it's the only solution would allow them to avoid murdering already endangered animals. I follow Lions closely and the population has dropped from about 200k in the late 70s, to roughly 20k today. Most of that is due to human encroachment and to a lesser degree canned hunting. There's no need for the latter when there are better, more sustainable and more humane options.

 

[berbatrick]

Unless the particular endangered species has an important role in the ecosystem, there is consequentially nothing different about this compared to normal hunting. Which is popular all across the west.