IDF attacking the activists' boats

skeeta

Yet another rambling idiot
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Having the cargo checked by Israel wouldn't jeopardize the delivery of the goods to Gaza.
Questions meant with no antagonistic intend?

Do you have any sympathies for the awful atrocities committed against the Palestinians?

Have you every mentioned the need for justice for the Arabs or Palestinians in any specificity?

Is Israel being a nuclear-armed state courtesy of US supplied modern armies that are invinicible against your neighbours conducive to good faith negotations?

Do you consider it just that Israel is determined to control more of Palestine's UN recognized frontiers with only little to no autonomy for the Arabs?

How would you describe Israel's tactics more suited to an oppressive regime after the second Intifada?

Should the displaced Arabs be compensated and made a legal necessity that Arabs are equal citizens in Israel?

Are you a advocate of preemptive attack against Iran?
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
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It does seeing as there is a restircited list of items
And you think Israel is to be trusted? Well of course you will, but those in the Flotilla had every right to doubt Israel's fair cooperation, heck the Israelis proved it by confiscating all recording equipment following the seizing of the ship.
Expired medications, mobility scooters and hospital beds are not on the lists. Construction materials are.
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
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Questions meant with no antagonistic intend?

Do you have any sympathies for the awful atrocities committed against the Palestinians?
I have sympathy for any innocent person affected by this awful conflict, though I'm not sure what you're referring to as "awful atrocities". This has too often been thrown to the air when Israel is involved in retaliating attacks on its severiegn territory.

Have you every mentioned the need for justice for the Arabs or Palestinians in any specificity?
The territorial dispute in the ME is so complicated, and chances for a viable solution are so slim because each side has its own vision of justice. If we are to reach peace in the region it would be only after each side acknowledges, at least partly, the other side's justice.

Is Israel being a nuclear-armed state courtesy of US supplied modern armies that are invinicible against your neighbours conducive to good faith negotations?
Israel is a nuclear-armed state despite the US and not thanks to the US. Israel's military might is also the sole reason that it still exists. If the inability of the Arabs to destroy Israel does not contribute to good faith negotiations then so be it.

Do you consider it just that Israel is determined to control more of Palestine's UN recognized frontiers with only little to no autonomy for the Arabs?
Israel is determined to reach a two-state solution with the Palestinians which will include agreement on the border issue. Adhering to the 1949 armistice lines as future borders is an attempt to fail negotiations imo. Future borders should take in consideration demographic changes since 1967 to minimize the number of people who need to leave their homes (i.e. territorial exchange).

How would you describe Israel's tactics more suited to an oppressive regime after the second Intifada?
I'd consider Israel's tactics as defensive after it had been set up by the Palestinians for what you call the "second intifada". I don't wish what happened here on anyone, but we've seen how beacons of Western liberalism respond to a single suicide attack on their own soil. I don't think we're any better than those, but the Palestinians are lucky we're not in a (political) position to retaliate accordingly.

Should the displaced Arabs be compensated and made a legal necessity that Arabs are equal citizens in Israel?
The displaced Arabs should receive a compensation package that would help them resettle in their current residence or in the future Palestinian state. The funding should come from Arab countries responsible for the displacement of 900,000 Jews and the confiscation of their property since the 1940's.

When Israeli Arabs accept that Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people and fill their obligations to the state of Israel I see no reason why they should not better assimilate in Israeli society. I see the issue of Israeli Arabs as a fundamental aspect of any futue Israeli-Palestinian agreement.

Are you a advocate of preemptive attack against Iran?
That's a tough one. A nuclear Iran as a threat to Israel's existence. However, the possible scenarios mentioned following such an attack are scary too. Unlike most people on here I won't be sitting in my living room with a beer watching events unfold on CNN though. It's a tough choice, and hopefully those responsible for making the decision one way or another are better informed than myself. One thing I know is that I'm grateful I don't have to make this decision.
 

holyland red

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What exactly are Israel's maritime borders? Don't know which route they are planning to use but what if the flotilla sails towards Gaza from the south-east?
I have no idea. They will be stopped before they make the Gaza port, which incidently does not exist. It's a publicity stunt, pretty much rendered useless by the opening of the Rafah crossing. There is no evil Mubarak on the other side collaborating with the Zionists in starving the poor Gazans.
 

ANWAR

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Freedom of expression subverted in Israel, US - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

"The right to freedom of expression is a fundamental one, necessary to protect the exercise of all other human rights in democratic societies because it is essential for holding governments accountable to the public." (Human Rights Watch, "When Speech Offends", February-March 2006)

Contrary to Fox News and Benjamin Netanyahu, democracy is neither alive nor well in the United States and Israel. Indeed, it is dying a slow, agonising death as each nation writhes in pain in adjoining beds, unaware that the intravenous feeding tubes controlled by their respective Knessets drip poison into their life-sustaining veins. Israel's Haaretz newspaper, in the voice of Carlo Strenger, carries the warning:

The flood of anti-democratic laws that were proposed, and partially implemented, by the current Knesset, elected in February 2009, constitute one of the darkest chapters in Israeli history. The opening salvo was provided by Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu party with its Nakba law, that forbids the public commemoration of the expulsion of approximately 750,000 Palestinians during the 1948 war.

Since then, a growing number of attempts were made to curtail freedom of expression and to make life for human rights groups more difficult. The latest instance is the boycott law that (is) was passed (this) last Monday by the Knesset, even though its legal advisor believes it to be a problematic infringement on freedom of speech.

Curiously, the US does not have a newspaper as brave and open to civil discourse as Haaretz. Instead, we rely on the New York Times, infamous for promoting the Iraq war on its front page, thus benefiting the war industry and its corporations that control Congress. Yet Congress, like its twin in Israel, has adopted similar anti-democratic resolutions that curtail freedom of speech and action not only of American citizens, but also of the representatives of the United Nations.

Role of the United Nations

House Resolution 268, entitled "Reaffirming the United States commitment to a negotiated settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through direct Israeli-Palestinian negotiations", was introduced on May 13, 2011 and passed by an overwhelming margin of 407-6.

The resolution specifically threatens the member states of the UN by condemning any "unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state" as well as the "unbalanced United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian peace process." To accomplish this end, the resolution announces that "the Administration will veto any resolution for Palestinian statehood that comes before the United Nations Security Council", opposes recognition of a Palestinian state by other nations, and in other international forums and, in a Mafia-like manner, threatens the Palestinians with "serious implications" for assistance programmes should they not obey.

Resolution 268 condemns in advance any deliberation on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by any nation, in any forum, that does not await an "agreement negotiated between Israel and the Palestinians". Curiously enough, this same resolution states that the United States "will not deal with nor in any way fund a Palestinian government that includes Hamas", a statement that prevents at the outset negotiations with the Palestinians, since Hamas represents over 1.5m Palestinians, thus belying the very purpose of the resolution, to bring peace between Israel and the Palestinians. How deceptively clever.

The resolution also demands that Hamas and the people they represent accept unconditionally the position of the US and Israel that it renounce violence, recognise Israel and agree to follow the previous obligations of the PLO. There is no recognition of Israel's violence against Hamas or Gaza, nor recognition under international law that the Palestinians have rights to resist the occupation of a foreign nation.

Nor does the resolution impose on Israel a comparable stipulation to recognise the right of the Palestinians to have a state of their own. That would require that Israel recognise Palestine's existence, its borders, and the land that Israel must return to its rightful owners. The resolution makes no mention of the conditions imposed by Israel that made implementation of the Oslo Accords possible, nor does it mention Israel's rejection of the stipulations made by the Quartet - the European Union, Russia, the UN and the US - thus placing full blame for the failed "peace negotiations" on the Palestinians.

Resolution 268 dictates to the people of the world that their voices will not be heard, their desires not considered, and their empathy for a besieged people made irrelevant; only the will of the Israeli administration and the Obama administration will stand. In a calculated fashion, the resolution was passed while the Quartet met in Washington. The acid that destroys democracy drips on.

But Resolution 268 is only the most recent example of the erosion of our rights in the United States. It follows one of the most glaringly illegal and potentially destructive interventions in international affairs taken by a purportedly democratic state and fully supported by our own Knesset.

Israel's law

Israel's prevention of freedom of speech and action by the international group of peace activists desiring to express their solidarity with the imprisoned Palestinians in the second flotilla to Gaza, by coercing the economically crippled Greek government to refuse representatives from many countries to leave the Greek ports, graphically demonstrates that a government like Israel can and will enforce its will on any nation, thereby denying the rights of free people everywhere. This, despite the fact that the peace activists had complied with every legal demand.

As Human Rights Watch wrote in 2006:

The right to freedom of expression is a fundamental one, necessary to protect the exercise of all other human rights in democratic societies because it is essential for holding governments accountable to the public. Freedom of expression is particularly necessary with respect to provocative or offensive speech, because once governmental censorship is permitted in such cases, the temptation is enormous for government officials to find speech that is critical of them to be unduly provocative or offensive as well.

The freedom to express even controversial points of view is also important for societies to address key political, social, and cultural issues, since taboos often mask matters of considerable public concern that are best addressed through honest and unfettered debate among those holding diverse points of view.

The full implications of Israel's takeover of the Greek government (with its conscious awareness that any action it took would be supported by our Congress) and hence its disregard for the will of the Greek citizen has been little regarded by our free press.

Yet perhaps nothing is so ominous as this blatant, hostile action by one foreign nation against another. What mindset permits Israel to impose its will on citizens of other nations? What provocation could possibly justify intervention of such magnitude? If Israel had evidence that the flotilla and its organisers were physical threats against the state of Israel, could they not bring that evidence before the UN and international courts to prevent the boats from sailing to Gaza? Why then the need to deny freedom of speech to citizens of many nations and commandeer another nation's government? Doesn't a democracy pride itself on rule of law?

Why, then, abandon law in favour of might? Again, in the words of Human Rights Watch: "The right to freedom of expression is…necessary to protect the exercise of all other human rights in democratic societies because it is essential for holding governments accountable to the public".

The death of democracy

No nation on this planet, no member state of the United Nations, no individual citizen nor groups of citizens can change what Israel and the United States did to Greece and to freedom of speech. They move with impunity as they impose their wills on nations that disagree with their policies. Neither is ruled by their people; they are owned by an elite few who have surreptitiously over time taken control of our freedoms. Neither government is held accountable to the public.

Indeed, it is that very accountability that they do not want and cannot allow to happen, which is why both governments fear the "Arab spring". Given the absolute control of our Congress by Israel, as the vote on Resolution 268 exemplifies, the US has to raise the fear of terrorism in its citizenry to ensure compliance with the anti-democratic behaviour and policies it pursues. Israel does the same. Carlo Strenger puts it this way:

What stands behind this frenzy of attempts to shut down criticism? The answer, I believe, is fear, stupidity, confusion - and now also a power-trip.

The result of Netanyahu's and Lieberman's systematic fanning of Israelis' existential fears is tangible: polls show that Israelis are deeply pessimistic about peace; they largely do not trust Palestinians, and in the younger generation belief in democratic values is being eroded.

But this pessimism and siege-mentality is not only to be found in ordinary Israeli voters, but also in the political class … They have profound misconceptions about the Free World's attitude towards Israel, and very little real understanding of the paradigm shift towards human rights as the core language of international discourse. They buy into Netanyahu's adage that Israel's existence is being delegitimised, rather than realising that Israel's settlement policy is unacceptable politically and morally to the whole world.

The US umbilical cord that sustains Israel's policies of occupation, settlements and oppression damns it before the world as people begin to find other ways to break the controls that US power provides for Israel. The flotilla activists effectively used moral sensibility to identify the illegality and inhumanity of Israel's siege of Gaza.

And while Israel successfully torpedoed the flotilla in Greek ports through a massive political propaganda campaign of manufactured lies, coercion and threats of lawsuits against shipping companies and insurance carriers, it also successfully torpedoed truth, turning even more of the world against a state that thrives on distortion, deception and devastation.

What both Israelis and Americans must realise, as these anti-democratic actions by both nations attest, is that democracy in both nations has been subverted in favour of those who command our representatives to actions that betray the essence of democracy and the will of the people. Democracy has been turned over to those who undermine the moral foundations on which it was built: equality for all, justice for all, dignity and respect for all; with government serving the people, not a corporate board. When the representatives of the state determine what people must accept, what they can and cannot do or say; when the power of two nations subverts the will and actions of all other nations, then democracy is dead.
 

holyland red

"Holier-than-thou fundamentalist"
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Instaed of pasting this important piece in this flotilla thread you shoud have started a new one titled "Al Jazeera preached democracy to the US and Israel".
 

ANWAR

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Instaed of pasting this important piece in this flotilla thread you shoud have started a new one titled "Al Jazeera preached democracy to the US and Israel".
Technically its not Aljazeera, it was posted in the 'oppinion' section by William. A. Cook on the Aljazeera website. Besides that, I thought it was an interesting piece.

Some of the laws that have been passed in recent years have been truly shocking. If trends continue, (and there doesn't seem to be much to say that they won't) then all the values the West supposedly holds dear will be lost.

In an ironic twist, after the 9/11 attacks, Bush claimed that the terrorists were after the freedoms of Americans. In reality, the gov't has done more damage to their freedoms than any terrorist could ever have.

Oh and resolution 268 is an absolute embarrassment and a disgrace.
 

holyland red

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Some of the laws that have been passed in recent years have been truly shocking. If trends continue, (and there doesn't seem to be much to say that they won't) then all the values the West supposedly holds dear will be lost.
I'm not sure about those, but Mr. Cook could probably enlighten us about freedom in a country which has "a newspaper as brave and open to civil discourse as Haaretz" and enemies within its own parliament.
 

holyland red

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The Palmer report's core conclusions are as follows:

1. The events of May 31, 2010 should not have ended as they did, and extensive efforts should be applied to ensure they do not happen in the future.

2. The principle of free maritime movement can be subjected to exceptions under international law. Gaza's militant groups pose a true threat to Israel and it imposes a naval blockade as a legitimate way to prevent weapons from finding their way into Gaza via its waters. The matter in which the blockage is enforced coincides with international law.

3. The Gaza-bound flotilla was not a governmental initiative.

4. While people have the right to express their political views, the flotilla's attempt to breach the Gaza blockage was reckless. The majority of the sail's participants bore no violent intention, but the true intentions of the organizers, and especially thos of the IHH, raise serious concerns; as they brought about a potential escalation that could have been avoided.

5. Neither Israel nor Turkey initiated the incident. Both countries applied measures meant to avoid harming human lives, peace and international security. Nevertheless, more could have been done to alert the sail's participants of the potential risk involved, and dissuade them from taking part in it.

6. Israel's decision to board the Marmara using the forces it did with no final warning to the vessel was exaggerated and unreasonable. Non-violent options should have been explored further. Once the force had boarded the ship, and faced with the resistance it met, Israel should have reevaluated its options.

7. The Israeli forces encountered significant, organized and violent resistance by a group of the Marmara's passengers, which called for the use of force in self defense.

8. The loss of life and injuries suffered by passengers as a result of the Israeli forces' actions in unacceptable. Israel has failed to provide the commission with a satisfactory explanation as to the nine deaths, and especially as to findings indicating that some of the fatalities were shot multiple times, including at close range and in the back.

9. Once the raid was over, the Israeli authorities did mistreat the passengers, pending their deportation. Such mistreatment included intimidation, the confiscation of personal belongings and delaying consular services.