If Henry had stayed at Arse, would it have made any difference?

[Drainy]

This. They sold Vieira because they wouldn't give over 30 year olds more than one year or something stupid like that

That was a stupid policy, but Ashley Cole leaving for Chelsea was a bigger sign they were finished. Then when there was an exodus to City a few years later there was no coming back as a legitimate contender.

All the best upcoming players will be skeptical of their 'project' from that point. Losing players to Juventus, Barcelona or Real Madrid are one thing, but the upstarts that are taking your place in the league..

 

[freeurmind]

Oh how I miss the days of looking at the Arsenal lineup and seeing the likes of Djourou and Senderos in central defence.

 

[Gio]

I thought 2008/09 was certainly the final top campaign of his career. Scored 26 in 42 and looked dangerous when he was moved centrally, better than Eto’o at times who also had a great season. Generally though he had to stay wider than most inverted wingers because Messi was allowed more freedom on and off the ball on the other flank. Still having a solid goal return while doing the functional stuff of stretching the play and working back down the line was all impressive. He picked up an injury in May where he missed the Chelsea game and only came back half fit for the United final which may have given the false impression he wasn’t a central figure for English audiences particularly. Barcelona lacked the same quality and threat from the left flank (Villa played much narrower) until Neymar hit form about six years later.

 

[GoonerBear]

I think injuries had a major effect of Arsenal in this period more than anything else. Eduardo's injury helped derail that season, so you could argue having an Henry might have made a difference in that season for the run in.

Struggling to keep Van Persie fit apart from his last season was a major blow. Likewise, Vermaelen, who had been named in the team of the season in his first year & looked a potential long term leader at the back. Then you throw in the likes of Diaby who should have been a Vieira like replacement, Rosicky who was quality in midfield, then on to Ramsey & Wilshere, nearly all these players had over a year out with injuries, most of them never becoming the player they could have after that.

That's half a team & basically the spine of it removed totally over just a few years. I think we invested too much time in the hope that players like Diaby could become fit, & I'd argue we didn't replace THEM properly.

Transfer dealings dropped a bit as well, losing players like Nasri & Adebayor & signing guys like Chamakh & Gervinho. Helped create a perfect storm, along with the emergence of Chelsea & later on City that caused Arsenal to slide down the table a bit.

 

[MrMarcello]

It’s a Horsechoker thread, what do you expect?

It was correct for Arsenal to let him go and it was right for Henry to leave, so he can win trophies.

The issue is Arsenal replaced him as captain with a big crybaby in Gallas. I would say losing Campbell and Vieira were bigger losses than Henry. Arsenals problems weren’t that they couldn’t score. It’s just they couldn’t defend at times and they were a soft touch. Evra called them boys.

They had major keeping problems as well.

 

[Champagne Football]

I don't think he would have much difference. Arsenal had debts to pay and were going backwards on the pitch, Henry was on the wane a little too.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Yup. They had no business selling him and Vieira.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

He scored over 30 goals and was a regular starter while Pedro made six appearances all season.

Henry was outstanding in the 2-6 game so I’m surprised you don’t remember that in 2008-09 he was still quite good.

Henry was fantastic in the treble season, not sure how that's being argued.

 

[Acheron]

Wenger sold all his early players at the right time or not far off it. Vieira, Henry, Pires, Petit, Overmars - most weren't as good after Arsenal and Wenger avoided keeping them on big contracts. They would be in much better shape if they kept doing that than now, wasting their resources on big contracts for Ozil, Willian, David Luiz and Aubameyang.

The point where Wenger lost Arsenal as title contenders though was after 2008, that's where the balance went wrong. He sold Fabregas at only 24 years old, peak of his power. He let Flamini go at 24, he was the perfect partner for Fabregas that season. They then later sold Toure, Nasri, Clichy, Adebayor to Man City and Van Persie to Man United. In the 2000s, Wenger never sold his top players to rivals, rather sold them abroad. They were really good in 07/08 and really weren't far off winning the league against strong United and Chelsea teams. But he just let too many peak players go - Nasri was 24, Adebayor was 25, Clichy was 26, there's a big difference between 24 and 29, it ripped the potential of that team apart.

Agree with this, then you take into account they were getting in players like Chamakh, Sanogo, etc. or the fact when they sold Flamini and never replaced him until 5 years later when they signed him again...

 

[berbatrick]

He was very good in 08/09, but Arsenal were pretty useless then. He might have helped in 07/08, when they needed just a few points, but I remember they improved a lot after he left - like Ruud leaving - so maybe he wouldn't have fit.

 

[renandstimpyfan83]

No, the issue is my point was quite clear but you're deliberately misreading it to make a point about henry being some world class player in 08/09 - i watched a lot of barcelona that season, he just wasn't. He was better than Pedro in 10/11, but not by much.

He quite simply was not the kind of player to turn a 4th place arsenal 20 points off top into a title contender, not with what he brought on the pitch at least

Yeah, it’s highly unlikely that 2008-09 Henry (or even peak Henry) is turning that version of Arsenal into title winners, however, they’d definitely be a few points better off considering that Bendtner played 50 games that season.

The thing is, if Arsenal had kept Henry in the summer of 2007, the side that came close to winning the league the following season could well have made up those seven points and then he could’ve been phased out before his decline which became obvious in 2009-10. As reigning champions, Arsenal can suddenly attract a high quality replacement and probably aren’t having half their squad agitate for a move.

Wenger sold all his early players at the right time or not far off it. Vieira, Henry, Pires, Petit, Overmars - most weren't as good after Arsenal and Wenger avoided keeping them on big contracts. They would be in much better shape if they kept doing that than now, wasting their resources on big contracts for Ozil, Willian, David Luiz and Aubameyang.

This is a bit of a myth really. If anything, after 2004, Wenger discarded his experienced players too fast.

Lehmann and Gilberto were both dumped for inferior players, one of whom buggered off an a free the first chance he got. Vieira and Henry were still easily good enough to start for Arsenal when they were sold and went on to be key players for Serie A and La Liga winning teams respectively. He should really have tried harder to keep hold of Campbell too as he went on to have two excellent seasons at Portsmouth before he really declined.

Overmars and especially Petit were both players who Wenger really got the best out of. Who knows if they would have continued to be top class under his management. At his best, Wenger was able to get levels out of players that you never saw under other coaches.

It’s weird because before 2004, he had kept Adams, Dixon, Keown, Seaman, Parlour, and Wright around even when they were no longer regular starters and all played important roles as squad players during trophy wins. It’s like he forgot how he made Arsenal so successful in the first place.

 

[GoonerBear]

Yeah, it’s highly unlikely that 2008-09 Henry (or even peak Henry) is turning that version of Arsenal into title winners, however, they’d definitely be a few points better off considering that Bendtner played 50 games that season.

The thing is, if Arsenal had kept Henry in the summer of 2007, the side that came close to winning the league the following season could well have made up those seven points and then he could’ve been phased out before his decline which became obvious in 2009-10. As reigning champions, Arsenal can suddenly attract a high quality replacement and probably aren’t having half their squad agitate for a move.



This is a bit of a myth really. If anything, after 2004, Wenger discarded his experienced players too fast.

Lehmann and Gilberto were both dumped for inferior players, one of whom buggered off an a free the first chance he got. Vieira and Henry were still easily good enough to start for Arsenal when they were sold and went on to be key players for Serie A and La Liga winning teams respectively. He should really have tried harder to keep hold of Campbell too as he went on to have two excellent seasons at Portsmouth before he really declined.

Overmars and especially Petit were both players who Wenger really got the best out of. Who knows if they would have continued to be top class under his management. At his best, Wenger was able to get levels out of players that you never saw under other coaches.

It’s weird because before 2004, he had kept Adams, Dixon, Keown, Seaman, Parlour, and Wright around even when they were no longer regular starters and all played important roles as squad players during trophy wins. It’s like he forgot how he made Arsenal so successful in the first place.

Im not sure losing most of those players were through choice. For about 3 summers in a row, Vieira was linked to Real Madrid & Juventus, & seemed to be set on a move as well.

Henry as well was close to leaving a season or 2 before he did, the Champions League final vs Barca almost convinced him to stay that extra year.

Overmars, Petit, Hleb all agitated for their moves with regret in the end.

He was quite happy to keep players as well, guys like Pires, Bergkamp, Ljungberg all played well into their 30's, guys like Gilberto & Campbell were 31 & went to Portsmouth & Panathanikos, suggesting that they were on their way down already.

Also, don't forget at that time, in terms of squad building, Arsenal could only spend what they made. So they couldn't really afford for every player to stay until their mid 30's with no resale value, as they would struggle for funds to replace them.

 

[rcoobc]

I can't believe Cesc has played more for Chelsea than he did Arsenal.

Edit - I am wrong

 

[GoonerBear]

I can't believe Cesc has played more for Chelsea than he did Arsenal.

Where did you see that? I don't think he did looking at Transfermarkt.

 

[James Peril]

I can't believe Cesc has played more for Chelsea than he did Arsenal.

That made me check... and he didn’t did he?

 

[rcoobc]

That made me check... and he didn’t did he?

Where did you see that? I don't think he did looking at Transfermarkt.

Maybe I dreamt that. Maybe it was he won more at Chelsea than at Arsenal

 

[Luke1995]

Don't think so. Henry's last world class season was 2005-2006.

He could definitely have helped the club to some extent had he stayed, but would Henry by himself score 30+ goals per season ? That's doubtful.

The Barcelona move suited him at that point in his career aswell, because Guardiola changed his game a little bit and that helped him to extend his career at the top level. At least for a while.

I don't know what happened to him in the 2009-2010 season, but Messi and Ibrahimovic were clearly more important to Barcelona that season than him.

 

[Donaldo]

They cashed in on him at the right time. He'd been injured a fair bit in 06/07.

Adebayor stepped up and did a good job for a few seasons. Van Persie getting injured for large chunks of 07/08 really hurt their title bid as Hleb and Cesc were in amazing form that season. Eduardo broken leg aswell of course.

Rosicky (December iirc after a super start to the season linking with Cesc, Hleb) and Sagna (January v Chelsea after scoring), were far more critical than permananently crocked RvP. Eduardo was just the cherry on top of the shit pie.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Nope.

Great player but he was slowing down and I think individual importance to a team's success is slightly overrated. He won trophies at Arsenal because they had many terrific players and a system that glued it all together. After that, their core weakened and they lacked the mentality required to win big trophies.

 

[FrenchToastMafia]

Wasn't the building of a new stadium one of the key things that has held Arsenal for a while, in terms of their recruitment?

 

[Bojan11]

Wasn't the building of a new stadium one of the key things that has held Arsenal for a while, in terms of their recruitment?

It was that and factor of Chelsea and Man City getting sugar Daddies which led to their downfall.

Wenger claims he nearly signed everyone. But players like Hazard, Essien, Silva and Aguero are type of players Wenger signed before the oil boys came in.

It is why Fergie is such a genius. He still kept up with those clubs, whilst Wenger could not.

 

[VBI]

In Barca's first Treble season, he was really good for big chunks of the season. The following year, he barely played to my memory, barely scored, was out with back problems I think, and then left after sticking around to get another league medal.

EDIT - Having checked, he played more than I thought, but 10 less appearances than the previous season, and only 4 goals.

 

[GoonerBear]

Wasn't the building of a new stadium one of the key things that has held Arsenal for a while, in terms of their recruitment?

Yeah, it certainly hindered them, & as the post above says the emergence of Chelsea then City furthered that.

Basically, Arsenal had to show a profit each season to satisfy the finance guys. That meant that in the main they had to sell to buy. They did post big profits at times, & I think that was them being too cautious in case the didn't make Champions League qualification, when perhaps a shrewd purchase here or there would have been more beneficial.

It was also complicated by the fact they had they had to keep a certain amount in reserve to satisfy conditions of the 'mortgage' on the stadium.

It got further exasperated when time was passing because things like shirt sponsorship & stadium naming rights were front loaded & on long term to help finance the stadium, which meant as time passed & clubs like Utd & Chsea were getting bigger & bigger deals, Arsenal were being more & more left behind.

Think the summer of 2014 was seen as the turning point regarding how tight finances were due to the stadium. Since then it's just been poor transfer strategy.

 

[Robertd0803]

Henry leaving when he did freed up the dressing room as well and allowed the younger players to become more expressive (at least I seem to remember someone like Fabregas/Rosicky/Flamini doing an interview to that effect), they were so in awe of him it held them back.

At least in 2007/2008 they were doing great until the Birmingham game.

 

[el3mel]

Henry at Barca was about half as good as his Arsenal version. I think it was a good move for both parties. His period of decline came while playing at Barca which covered up for it nicely and handed him ton of titles including CL (which he would have never won playing at Arsenal).

 

[kouroux]

Henry at Barca was about half as good as his Arsenal version. I think it was a good move for both parties. His period of decline came while playing at Barca which covered up for it nicely and handed him yin of titles including CL (which he would have never won playing at Arsenal).

I think it's because he had to learn how to play a much much different brand of football. He was asked to work very hard in terms of pressing and he needed to adapt stamina wise to those levels.

 

[el3mel]

I think it's because he had to learn how to play a much much different brand of football. He was asked to work very hard in terms of pressing and he needed to adapt stamina wise to those levels.

Yeah I remember he also had to play more as a winger than a pure striker to accommodate both Messi and Eto'o which of course took its toll on him.

 

[kouroux]

Yeah I remember he also had to play more as a winger than a pure striker to accommodate both Messi and Eto'o which of course took its toll on him.

Exactly. He said that all those efforts were worth it to him as he finally won the only trophy missing for him at the time.

 

[Threesus]

Yeah, it certainly hindered them, & as the post above says the emergence of Chelsea then City furthered that.

Basically, Arsenal had to show a profit each season to satisfy the finance guys. That meant that in the main they had to sell to buy. They did post big profits at times, & I think that was them being too cautious in case the didn't make Champions League qualification, when perhaps a shrewd purchase here or there would have been more beneficial.

It was also complicated by the fact they had they had to keep a certain amount in reserve to satisfy conditions of the 'mortgage' on the stadium.

It got further exasperated when time was passing because things like shirt sponsorship & stadium naming rights were front loaded & on long term to help finance the stadium, which meant as time passed & clubs like Utd & Chsea were getting bigger & bigger deals, Arsenal were being more & more left behind.

Think the summer of 2014 was seen as the turning point regarding how tight finances were due to the stadium. Since then it's just been poor transfer strategy.

I still can't believe that your club brought in only Cech in 2015. That Leicester season was perfect for you to win the league and you guys botched it. It was probably Ozil's last big season in England. And then you went and brought in xhaka, Mustafi and Perez..
If rumours are to be believed, you guys are in for bissouma and Buendia, which would be very good signings for you. Think you will be able to pull it off this window?

 

[GoonerBear]

I still can't believe that your club brought in only Cech in 2015. That Leicester season was perfect for you to win the league and you guys botched it. It was probably Ozil's last big season in England. And then you went and brought in xhaka, Mustafi and Perez..
If rumours are to be believed, you guys are in for bissouma and Buendia, which would be very good signings for you. Think you will be able to pull it off this window?

Yeah, was really the start of a very few poor windows for us actually where we weren't active enough in the first instance, & when we were we spent the money poorly. Another 1 of those what could have / should have been with just 1 or 2 more players of quality. People forget we beat Leicester in February 2016 of that year to go top of the league, then fell apart just after it for a spell. We beat them twice that season that they won the league.

As for Buendia, Bissouma, players of that ilk are who we should be targeting, good age, EPL experience, hungry. Kind of thing that Liverpool do well & Utd did well under Fergie. However, don't think we'll get them this window, we just don't have the money to convince Brighton who are fighting relegation & Norwich who want promotion to give up their best players. Think if we were to sign any of them they would be summer deals unfortunately.

 

[renandstimpyfan83]

Henry leaving when he did freed up the dressing room as well and allowed the younger players to become more expressive (at least I seem to remember someone like Fabregas/Rosicky/Flamini doing an interview to that effect), they were so in awe of him it held them back.

I think this is mostly nonsense. Cesc was incredible for Arsenal from day 1. Rosicky only played with Henry during 2006-07 when he was still adapted to the league and both players missed big chunks of the season due to injury anyway. Flamini was just a crap player who had a decent purple patch.

 

[Robertd0803]

I think this is mostly nonsense. Cesc was incredible for Arsenal from day 1. Rosicky only played with Henry during 2006-07 when he was still adapted to the league and both players missed big chunks of the season due to injury anyway. Flamini was just a crap player who had a decent purple patch.

Yeah I cant remember who said it, but they certainly did seem to pick up when he left for a while until the Birmingham game.

*Edit* It was Fabregas said it, then Henry agreed with him in a later interview. Cant find the interview though although Henrys quote is on his Wiki page but the link to the article is dead.

 

[JSArsenal]

Henry leaving when he did freed up the dressing room as well and allowed the younger players to become more expressive (at least I seem to remember someone like Fabregas/Rosicky/Flamini doing an interview to that effect), they were so in awe of him it held them back.

At least in 2007/2008 they were doing great until the Birmingham game.

I don't buy this, just felt like PR at the time and what every club does after a star player leaves. "Now we can play with so much more freedom, it's great!"

As if you're not going to miss someone who can score 30 goals a season or come up with a bit of magic to win a tight game.

Henry liked to play, if he saw the kids were performing he would have raised his level accordingly. Probably slap Gallas around a bit too at St. Andrews. You can't forget that RVP and Eduardo both missed the run in and we had a lot of draws during that period.

Henry stays, we win the league. If Cole was still at the club, we win the league as well.