If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?

[steffyr2]

We're the most winning team in England, most league titles, one of the most recognized teams in world football, we don't suddenly go from being a big club while we're successfull to being a small club when we don't win anything. Just as Liverpool has "always" been known as one of the biggest clubs in England.

Great. We're Liverpool mark 2, how the mighty have fallen.
Well, getting relegated will be fine then. sounds like you and the Glazers are on the same page.... having great players and a functioning club is unnecessary because we're MANCHESTER UNITED!

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

I think some of the problems with Mourinho’s last transfer were:

- The board wouldn’t give him Maguire because his previous CB purchases were considered a bit of flops at the time (Bailly and Lindelof), or perhaps they wanted to give them more time, also the team had a good defensive record and being the incompetent suits that they are, they assumed it was because the players were good enough.

-His targets were pretty uninspiring, Willian wasn’t it? would’ve been a truly depressing signing.

And then he obviously lost it for not being backed after what he thought was a decent season and wanted to build from there.
Klopp was backed, and improved his team further and the team became better.
Mourinho wasn’t backed in his last summer window and he didn’t like it.

 

[matt10000]

FACT: Mourinho took this squad, which now everyone is saying are total crap and no one could succeed with into second place.

Mourinho said at the time it was his greatest achievement. It is looking like it was a miracle now. Many now saying didn’t like the football but at the same time now saying the squad are crap. Well Mourinho took a crap squad to second place with a points tally that would have won the prem league in some previous seasons yet the football wasn’t good enough. Jeez what do you expect with this crap squad?!?

Mourinho should have been backed end of. He wasn’t and his behaviour once he realised meant that he deserved to be sacked but it was a situation that needn’t and shouldn’t have happened.

If he had been backed things would have been very different and the main debate on here may well have been is it good enough for a club such as us to win the league without winning in style and should we sack Mourinho to change the brand of football!

 

[sammsky1]

Spoken like someone who knows what they are taking about.
I am not at all surprised that people find Jose so divisive. He is what he is, a highly intelligent and hugely successful manager.
What I find surprising are the number of people who completely write off that 2nd place finish as if it either didn't happen or it was some kind of fluke.
Anyway. He is in the past and our future does not look at all promising.

And it's this entitled and deluded belief that pressurises Woodward into making such short term and contradictory managerial hiring decisions.
And you are correct, our future looks more bleak than it did under Mourinho.
I place blame to these fans for alot of our post SAF problems.

 

[JPRouve]

I think some of the problems with Mourinho’s last transfer were:

- The board wouldn’t give him Maguire because his previous CB purchases were considered a bit of flops at the time (Bailly and Lindelof), or perhaps they wanted to give them more time, also the team had a good defensive record and being the incompetent suits that they are, they assumed it was because the players were good enough.

-His targets were pretty uninspiring, Willian wasn’t it? would’ve been a truly depressing signing.

And then he obviously lost it for not being backed after what he thought was a decent season and wanted to build from there.
Klopp was backed, and improved his team further and the team became better.
Mourinho wasn’t backed in his last summer window and he didn’t like it.

On the CBs, I think that it was a little bit more complicated than that. First I think that they were probably disagreeing with his focus on the same position for a third straight year when we desperately needed to improve in other areas. There is a point where the club as to demand coaching and tactical improvements instead of simply relying on new purchases for the same roles.
Secondly, we had 7 CBS on our books we can't have that many players out of 25, playing in the same position, they are not playing for free which is something that people seem to forget, so we needed to offload three of them before thinking about adding a CB. And then the question is, was Mourinho okay with that?
Thirdly, nothing suggests that Leicester were willing to sell him for a reasonal price after the WC hype and he clearly didn't push for a move.

The way I see it, that situation probably soured everything because it's easy to see everyone have legitimate grief. Mourinho thinking that the club didn't believe in him anymore, which can't be a nice feeling. And the club thinking that they needed an elite coach and not a serial shopper.

From where I stand they are all at fault, if you don't believe in a manager, let him go at the end of the season, don't make him feel bad. And no manager gets everything at the snap of his fingers, often you have to play with the card that you are dealt, what separates the best from the rest is that they simply find a way through coaching because that's the skill supposed to make them special.

 

[Lebo]

Answer to the OP
DE Gea
Young Lindelof Maguire???

Matic Fred McToMinay

Willian Lukaku. Perisič

Do you see the above team challenging for anything?

 

[Buster15]

And it's this entitled and deluded belief that pressurises Woodward into making such short term and contradictory managerial hiring decisions.
And you are correct, our future looks more bleak than it did under Mourinho.
I place blame to these fans for alot of our post SAF problems.

Goodness me. You really do not know what you are talking about do you.
There is nothing entitled and deluded about quoting the facts.
The deluded are those who put their emotions before these facts.
And by the way. The individual whose post I was responding to is someone whose views I have respect for.

 

[Foxbatt]

Having studied Jose, the Maguire situation is not the one that broke Jose. There is something else behind the scene.
My gut feeling is that he wanted two midfield players and a striker. The response was he has bought Matic and Fred and Pogba too.
In hindsight yes Jose should have been backed and backed to the hilt and he would have won.

 

[Buster15]

FACT: Mourinho took this squad, which now everyone is saying are total crap and no one could succeed with into second place.

Mourinho said at the time it was his greatest achievement. It is looking like it was a miracle now. Many now saying didn’t like the football but at the same time now saying the squad are crap. Well Mourinho took a crap squad to second place with a points tally that would have won the prem league in some previous seasons yet the football wasn’t good enough. Jeez what do you expect with this crap squad?!?

Mourinho should have been backed end of. He wasn’t and his behaviour once he realised meant that he deserved to be sacked but it was a situation that needn’t and shouldn’t have happened.

If he had been backed things would have been very different and the main debate on here may well have been is it good enough for a club such as us to win the league without winning in style and should we sack Mourinho to change the brand of football!

Correct.

 

[Wolf8312]

I never thought he would be good for united but I have to say when he won the Europa league I felt that he proved me wrong. Ole will never get close to that kind of achievement, and that's not his fault, as he has been a victim -and probably the biggest victim- in all of this too (albeit now a mega rich victim of the kind I would be very happy to be), as he should never have been hired for a job that he wasn't ready, or qualified for.

I'm not going to pretend that I know the answer for sure what went on with Mourinho, but I sense the players rebelled, and he wasn't supported by the higher ups, as they considered players like Pogba to be of more value to them commercially than the manager himself.

The Ole debacle was all predicated upon the myth that Mourinho was the problem and the players and team were actually great all along.

Well that theory fell apart pretty quickly didn't it...

 

[JPRouve]

Having studied Jose, the Maguire situation is not the one that broke Jose. There is something else behind the scene.
My gut feeling is that he wanted two midfield players and a striker. The response was he has bought Matic and Fred and Pogba too.
In hindsight yes Jose should have been backed and backed to the hilt and he would have won.

The fundamental problem that I have with your last sentence is, where is the money supposed to come from? Between 2016 and 2018 we increased the wage bill by 90m and we spent around 300m after deducing sells. We went way beyond the hilt.

 

[Champagne Football]

Jose has a 3 year limit where the pressure gets too much, and he causes a bit of trouble to get himself fired.

There's absolutely no reason to believe that this 3 year meltdown cycle would have changed, had we given him the £200 million he was demanding in his final summer, to sign Jerome Boateng, Harry Maguire and Willian.

The reality is that had we given him that final 200 million to complete his rebuild, he would have found some other reason to down tools. Perhaps because we were not willing to spend an extra £300 signing Neymar, Jose would have used something like that to justify downing tools.

 

[sammsky1]

Goodness me. You really do not know what you are talking about do you.
There is nothing entitled and deluded about quoting the facts.
The deluded are those who put their emotions before these facts.
And by the way. The individual whose post I was responding to is someone whose views I have respect for.

You've totally misunderstood me .. I agree with you!

What I was trying to say was 'people who completely write off that 2nd place finish as if it either didn't happen or it was some kind of fluke' pressure our board into short term managerial changes.

ie: it's those entitled and deluded beliefs that pressurises Woodward into making such short term and contradictory managerial hiring decisions.

make sense? We are in agreement!

 

[Buster15]

You've totally misunderstood me .. I agree with you!

What I was trying to say was 'people who completely write off that 2nd place finish as if it either didn't happen or it was some kind of fluke' pressure our board into short term managerial changes.

ie: it's those entitled and deluded beliefs that pressurises Woodward into making such short term and contradictory managerial hiring decisions.

make sense? We are in agreement!

I have misunderstood you and I am happy to admit that.

 

[Buster15]

The fundamental problem that I have with your last sentence is, where is the money supposed to come from? Between 2016 and 2018 we increased the wage bill by 90m and we spent around 300m after deducing sells. We went way beyond the hilt.

And how much do you think it is going to cost to get our way out of this mess.
300m maybe.

 

[matt10000]

Jose has a 3 year limit where the pressure gets too much, and he causes a bit of trouble to get himself fired.

There's absolutely no reason to believe that this 3 year meltdown cycle would have changed, had we given him the £200 million he was demanding in his final summer, to sign Jerome Boateng, Harry Maguire and Willian.

The reality is that had we given him that final 200 million to complete his rebuild, he would have found some other reason to down tools. Perhaps because we were not willing to spend an extra £300 signing Neymar, Jose would have used something like that to justify downing tools.

Total speculation

 

[Amir]

In hindsight yes Jose should have been backed and backed to the hilt and he would have won.

Having seen the football we've played under him, I seriously doubt the addition of three-four players would have turned us into a team than can challenge a 100-points-a-season City and then also Liverpool.

 

[JPRouve]

And how much do you think it is going to cost to get our way out of this mess.
300m maybe.

No one knows and I'm not sure about the point that you are making. We have spent what we have, we haven't spared money in the last three years.

 

[roonster09]

Total speculation

Yeah on the other hand, people saying we would have won/challenged for league title are basing everything on facts. Maybe they used time Machine and saw the alternate reality.

 

[Buster15]

No one knows and I'm not sure about the point that you are making. We have spent what we have, we haven't spared money in the last three years.

The point I am making is that had we managed not to piss the most successful manager since Sir Alex Ferguson off so much then the club would not have been in free fall, we would not have been paying off yet another managers contract and still have to invest a fortune to try and become competitive again.
Mistakes were made on both sides. That I fully accept.

 

[matt10000]

Yeah on the other hand, people saying we would have won/challenged for league title are basing everything on facts. Maybe they used time Machine and saw the alternate reality.

Coming second is a fact.

Coming second with a crap squad is general consensus on here as everyone is saying this squad is crap.

If you come second and back the manager with his signings then assuming the signings are not as bad and crap as everyone on here claims, then logically one should see an improvement. An improvement on second place is either first place or second place but closer to first place. If this is not challenging then what is?

This is the most likely alternate reality based on above logic

 

[anant]

No! Ole may not be the correct choice but that doesn't mean Jose was!
Have it this way, his biggest issues were not getting the players he wanted. But on what basis should he have been offered money?

Have a look at his transfers!
Zlatan- success
Pogba- Arguably a success, although not everyone agrees
Lindelof- Under Mourinho, wasn't exactly the best of times, although was finding his feet
Bailly- Injured way too much
Lukaku- didn't meet the expectations. Had exactly the same issues as Everton (unsurprisingly so)
Mkhi, Sanchez, Matic, Fred- Failures
Dalot- Signed a RB for the future when we needed one for exactly then

Add to that, a few of them are relatively/extremely short term transfers. People say that Pep spent 100m more. Now buy any set of players (using the power of hindsight) for that amount that can match City's not just in quality but also depth.

 

[roonster09]

Coming second is a fact.

Coming second with a crap squad is general consensus on here as everyone is saying this squad is crap.

If you come second and back the manager with his signings then assuming the signings are not as bad and crap as everyone on here claims, then logically one should see an improvement. An improvement on second place is either first place or second place but closer to first place. If this is not challenging then what is?

This is the most likely alternate reality based on above logic

Yeah it's all linear progression. Wonder why we were not even close to 81 points mark next season with the same squad + few additions.

This thread is about challenging for league title. Considering we were not even in race in 2.5 years it's illogical to assume couple of players would have changed anything.

 

[matt10000]

Yeah it's all linear progression. Wonder why we were not even close to 81 points mark next season with the same squad + few additions.

I don’t wonder why, it is obvious, Mourinho wasn’t backed, was very pissed, probably demotivated and in despair, acted unprofessionally and deserved to get sacked.

All this was avoidable

 

[roonster09]

I don’t wonder why, it is obvious, Mourinho wasn’t backed, was very pissed, probably demotivated and in despair, acted unprofessionally and deserved to get sacked.

All this was avoidable

So manager acted like a twat because he didn't get couple of players, when as a leader he should have shown team how to act professionally.

Btw Van Gaal finished 4th, we spent money and signed many players, ended with less points, less goals and lower position. Signing couple of players won't change much unless we are signing Messi, Ronaldo. Our problem was bigger than just a CB or CM.

 

[matt10000]

So manager acted like a twat because he didn't get couple of players, when as a leader he should have shown team how to act professionally.

I agree and have never said otherwise.

All I am saying is that the situation was avoidable. Mourinho took this squad, which now everyone is saying are total crap and no one could succeed with into second place.

Mourinho said at the time it was his greatest achievement. It is looking like it was a miracle now.

Mourinho should have been backed end of. He wasn’t and his behaviour once he realised meant that he deserved to be sacked but it was a situation that needn’t and shouldn’t have happened.

If he had been backed things would have been very different and the main debate on here may well have been is it good enough for a club such as us to win the league without winning in style and should we sack Mourinho to change the brand of football.

 

[R'hllor]

The moment he came out with his sperm product enjoying watching PSG, it was over, Ed as any clown took a bait and extended his contract.

 

[Stactix]

Mourinho has never lasted more than 3 seasons & 1 month at a club. Period.
That includes his best successes, his best results, his best teams it has always been a short tenure, would that of been different if he had been backed to the hilt? Would he still have been here in 10 years? Don't be fecking naive.


Mourinho is a short term manager and lets just remember the Sevilla debacle and the comments that came with that debacle happened before that fecking summer where he 'wasn't backed'
Now of course, Woodward should of either backed or sacked him but the problems started before that summer and even with a 300mill expenditure, there would of been fractures in the squad because that's how Mourinho is.
He's probably the best short term manager around but one of the worst to keep when things begin to sour.

 

[matt10000]

Mourinho has never lasted more than 3 seasons & 1 month at a club. Period.
That includes his best successes, his best results, his best teams it has always been a short tenure, would that of been different if he had been backed to the hilt? Would he still have been here in 10 years? Don't be fecking naive.


Mourinho is a short term manager and lets just remember the Sevilla debacle and the comments that came with that debacle happened before that fecking summer where he 'wasn't backed'
Now of course, Woodward should of either backed or sacked him but the problems started before that summer and even with a 300mill expenditure, there would of been fractures in the squad because that's how Mourinho is.
He's probably the best short term manager around but one of the worst to keep when things begin to sour.

Who are you replying to? I haven’t read anyone saying they expected Mourinho to stay 10 years?

 

[JPRouve]

The point I am making is that had we managed not to piss the most successful manager since Sir Alex Ferguson off so much then the club would not have been in free fall, we would not have been paying off yet another managers contract and still have to invest a fortune to try and become competitive again.
Mistakes were made on both sides. That I fully accept.

He is an actor in that mess, so you don't really have a point. We are in that costly mess partially because we backed him heavily and he managed to not actually improve the team accordingly to the money invested. And the reason he was pissed off is ridiculous in itself, he simply acted like child.

 

[Greck]

The notion that his sacking was our fault is ridiculous. His reaction to not getting what he wanted was incredibly disproportionate to the original act. We're not talking about a child here. He still had to maintain a level of decorum and people just want to give him a pass because he's Jose. Well he's now out of the job and can't get another because of the amount of times he's pulled that same stunt

 

[el3mel]

He is an actor in that mess, so you don't really have a point. We are in that costly mess partially because we backed him heavily and he managed to not actually improve the team accordingly to the money invested. And the reason he was pissed off is ridiculous in itself, he simply acted like child.

You can blame Mourinho for anything in his reign if you like but blaming him for the current mess we have is ridiculous and doesn't make any kind of sense and just reminds me of those who kept blaming SAF for the squad he left for his successors. Our current manager had enough long summer to buy whatever he wants and spends as much as Mourinho did. No one told him to sell all the useful squad options and enter the season with a thread thin squad and put us in a situation needing +300m to spend. The majority of the players were players who helped us several times and could have been phased out regularly. This is on the current useless manager. Mourinho has nothing to do with this.

 

[sammsky1]

Yeah on the other hand, people saying we would have won/challenged for league title are basing everything on facts. Maybe they used time Machine and saw the alternate reality.

We would have been consistently 2nd or 3rd. I'd be OK with that. You prefer where we are now???????

 

[sammsky1]

The notion that his sacking was our fault is ridiculous. His reaction to not getting what he wanted was incredibly disproportionate to the original act. We're not talking about a child here. He still had to maintain a level of decorum and people just want to give him a pass because he's Jose. Well he's now out of the job and can't get another because of the amount of times he's pulled that same stunt

And where are we now? How much and how long will it take us just to regain 2nd?

Seems like Mourinho haters all like to cut off their nose to spite their own face!

 

[Greck]

And where are we now? How much and how long will it take us just to regain 2nd?

Seems like Mourinho haters all like to cut off their nose to spite their own face!

We'll get another top manager. Jose won't get another top job.

 

[sammsky1]

We'll get another top manager. Jose won't get another top job.

answer the question: where are we now? How much and how long will it take us just to regain 2nd?

Worth your hatred?

 

[Greck]

answer the question: where are we now? How much and how long will it take us just to regain 2nd?

Worth your hatred?

I answered it. We're better off in the long term than he is without us. The man is unemployed while we get another roll of the dice even after Ole.

Also look at you fiercely fighting for his honour at the expense of the club. What's wrong with some of you?

 

[steffyr2]

I answered it. We're better off in the long term than he is without us. The man is unemployed while we get another roll of the dice even after Ole.

Also look at you fiercely fighting for his honour at the expense of the club. What's wrong with some of you?

So the Man Utd plan is to ruin all managers who wind up 2nd or below in the PL, with the full approval of the utd fans. Should be quite a selling point for the future.

 

[MackRobinson]

There is no sugar coating required. We finished 2nd simple as that. Could you please write out a list of our other post SAF finishing positions?

Sure. I'll also add context.

Place / Pts / Pts behind 1st / CL exit / Manager
7th / 64 / -22 / QF / Moyes
4th / 70 / -17 / -- / LVG
5th / 66 / -16 / Group / LVG
6th / 69 / -17 / -- / Jose
2nd / 81 / -19 / R16 / Jose
6th / -- / -19 / -- / Jose (before sacking)

As you can see Jose never challenged for the title even though he was second and he was dumped out in the round of 16 by mighty Sevilla.

Always happy to add context. Cheers.

 

[lsd]

Has anyone mentioned Jose took us to second yet as apparently it's a bigger achievement than anything we did under Fergie ?