If our defence is so bad why is it so good?

[Member 113277]

To put things into perspective, let's look at some numbers (with the usual caveats about lies, damn lies etc.). The tables below are based on completing 31 games.

Team	Goals for	Average per game	Goals against	Average per game
Liverpool	70	2.3	21	0.7
City	76	2.5	31	1.0

If you want to be challenging for the title, this is the benchmark - Liverpool are top because they are less leaky than city and still score freely.

Lets look at how we are comparing in the table below - in the first half of the season, the goals conceded was way too high, but it improves in the second half to be on a par with the best. We are toe to toe with Liverpool, but they have maintained this for the whole season and that gives them superiority over the free scoring City team.

There are a raft of potential reasons for the improvement, including a poor midfield combo until Fred started performing and formed a relationship with McTominay, the resurgence of Matic, Bruno's arrival putting pressure on the opposition and no doubt other factors I've missed.

The conclusion from the numbers is that we need to have a solid Matic replacement, the defence is basically fit for (defensive) purpose, but we don't score enough goals. Even post Bruno, 1.7 per game is not good enough to win a title.

It will be interesting to see what the table below looks like, when we've played all 38 games. Even yesterday (and 3-0 is a solid win), I felt we should have scored another couple if we were ruthless enough in attack. Look at how City dealt with Burnley and Liverpool put Palace away - that's the difference, for me.

Games	Goals for	Average per game	Goals against	Average per game
1-19 (first half of season)	30	1.6	23	1.2
20-31 (second half of season, 12 games)	16	1.3	8	0.7
25-31 (since Bruno joined)	12	1.7	3	0.4

 

[RkkMan]

Shouldn't it be "less" goals not more.
We actually tied in 3rd place for lowest goals conceded.

Liverpool - 21
Leicester - 29
Man City/Man United/Sheffield - 31

Yeah I meant less edited it. Thanks for the correction and on the PL website it says Leicester have conceded 31.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

To put things into perspective, let's look at some numbers (with the usual caveats about lies, damn lies etc.). The tables below are based on completing 31 games.

Team	Goals for	Average per game	Goals against	Average per game
Liverpool	70	2.3	21	0.7
City	76	2.5	31	1.0

If you want to be challenging for the title, this is the benchmark - Liverpool are top because they are less leaky than city and still score freely.

Lets look at how we are comparing in the table below - in the first half of the season, the goals conceded was way too high, but it improves in the second half to be on a par with the best. We are toe to toe with Liverpool, but they have maintained this for the whole season and that gives them superiority over the free scoring City team.

There are a raft of potential reasons for the improvement, including a poor midfield combo until Fred started performing and formed a relationship with McTominay, the resurgence of Matic, Bruno's arrival putting pressure on the opposition and no doubt other factors I've missed.

The conclusion from the numbers is that we need to have a solid Matic replacement, the defence is basically fit for (defensive) purpose, but we don't score enough goals. Even post Bruno, 1.7 per game is not good enough to win a title.

It will be interesting to see what the table below looks like, when we've played all 38 games. Even yesterday (and 3-0 is a solid win), I felt we should have scored another couple if we were ruthless enough in attack. Look at how City dealt with Burnley and Liverpool put Palace away - that's the difference, for me.

Games	Goals for	Average per game	Goals against	Average per game
1-19 (first half of season)	30	1.6	23	1.2
20-31 (second half of season, 12 games)	16	1.3	8	0.7
25-31 (since Bruno joined)	12	1.7	3	0.4

The defensive record is good enough if evaluated in isolation. But if we had more attacking-minded players, or played with more men in attack and at a higher risk, would we not concede more with our current defenders?

I think that we could get more goals if we had fullbacks that were better at passing and movement in the buildup and crossing in the final third. Despite AWB getting an assist yesterday, it is still a long way for him to go before he is an asset in attack. Still, it should be noted that his defensive ability somewhat makes up for this.
Shaw, on the other hand, is not as good defensively and makes some really bad decisions. Could easily get another 5 goals or assists from this position without risking our defensive record.

And it is also not only about replacing a player, but increasing our threat from wide areas, and thus forcing the opposition to spread out and creating more space for Pogba and Bruno to operate in. Now, the opposition is comfortable giving Shaw and AWB space in the final third because they know that it is more important to mark Bruno and PP centrally...

 

[Member 113277]

The defensive record is good enough if evaluated in isolation. But if we had more attacking-minded players, or played with more men in attack and at a higher risk, would we not concede more with our current defenders?

I think that we could get more goals if we had fullbacks that were better at passing and movement in the buildup and crossing in the final third. Despite AWB getting an assist yesterday, it is still a long way for him to go before he is an asset in attack. Still, it should be noted that his defensive ability somewhat makes up for this.
Shaw, on the other hand, is not as good defensively and makes some really bad decisions. Could easily get another 5 goals or assists from this position without risking our defensive record.

And it is also not only about replacing a player, but increasing our threat from wide areas, and thus forcing the opposition to spread out and creating more space for Pogba and Bruno to operate in. Now, the opposition is comfortable giving Shaw and AWB space in the final third because they know that it is more important to mark Bruno and PP centrally...

Hi Fosu-Mens

You make some fair points - at the end of the day, it's all conjecture, so attacking more could mean leaking or it could also mean putting the other team under so much pressure that our defence has an easier ride - in matches 1-19, there were too many games when we made mediocre attacks look good - this has happened less, recently.

I tend to agree that we have two fullbacks who are not great attackers - I'm hopeful that AWB (who is only 22) will improve in this respect and he has got a couple of assists in recent games, possibly due to coaching - but yes, his focus is defensive at the moment. Shaw does make errors, but is fast enough to recover and does cover his centre backs effectively, though at 24, he might still respond to coaching - he doesn't seem to have the confidence to go around the outside at the moment.

In summary, I see the need to create and finish more chances - PP and Bruno should hopefully ramp up our record as they get used to playing with each other (and knock some extra goals in) - I was delighted to see Martial slot three away and hope that will drive him onwards to 18 EPL goals for the season - Marcus needs to find his shooting boots. It's good we've got Ighalo to lead the line in some games and Mason has all the talent develop into a great player.

So on balance, a team in rebuilding, but a long way ahead from this time last year.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Anyone else seen the clip of Maguire telling Shaw to “f-ing switch on!”

 

[gajender]

Anyone else seen the clip of Maguire telling Shaw to “f-ing switch on!”

That's probably the right thing to do but it's bit rich coming from Maguire to be honest.

 

[Member 113277]

That's probably the right thing to do but it's bit rich coming from Maguire to be honest.

But as club captain he has to hold his colleagues to account.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Our defence is ok, but given the defenders we've been used to over to the years it's fairly weak in comparison. Maguire is our best CB but he's nowhere near the standard of CB's we've had over the years. In saying that, the standards of CB's in general seems to have dropped off massively from 10 to 15 years ago.

 

[Nickelodeon]

That's probably the right thing to do but it's bit rich coming from Maguire to be honest.

I'd rather Shaw snap back at him when he's switched off than neither of them speaking a word to each other.

 

[lysglimt]

To put things into perspective, let's look at some numbers (with the usual caveats about lies, damn lies etc.). The tables below are based on completing 31 games.

Team	Goals for	Average per game	Goals against	Average per game
Liverpool	70	2.3	21	0.7
City	76	2.5	31	1.0

If you want to be challenging for the title, this is the benchmark - Liverpool are top because they are less leaky than city and still score freely.

Lets look at how we are comparing in the table below - in the first half of the season, the goals conceded was way too high, but it improves in the second half to be on a par with the best. We are toe to toe with Liverpool, but they have maintained this for the whole season and that gives them superiority over the free scoring City team.

There are a raft of potential reasons for the improvement, including a poor midfield combo until Fred started performing and formed a relationship with McTominay, the resurgence of Matic, Bruno's arrival putting pressure on the opposition and no doubt other factors I've missed.

The conclusion from the numbers is that we need to have a solid Matic replacement, the defence is basically fit for (defensive) purpose, but we don't score enough goals. Even post Bruno, 1.7 per game is not good enough to win a title.

It will be interesting to see what the table below looks like, when we've played all 38 games. Even yesterday (and 3-0 is a solid win), I felt we should have scored another couple if we were ruthless enough in attack. Look at how City dealt with Burnley and Liverpool put Palace away - that's the difference, for me.

Games	Goals for	Average per game	Goals against	Average per game
1-19 (first half of season)	30	1.6	23	1.2
20-31 (second half of season, 12 games)	16	1.3	8	0.7
25-31 (since Bruno joined)	12	1.7	3	0.4

It should be added that 6 of Brunos matches are against Wolves, Spurs, Sheffield U, City, Everton, Chelsea - so hardly the matches where you can expect an average of over 2 goals pr game.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Hi Fosu-Mens

You make some fair points - at the end of the day, it's all conjecture, so attacking more could mean leaking or it could also mean putting the other team under so much pressure that our defence has an easier ride - in matches 1-19, there were too many games when we made mediocre attacks look good - this has happened less, recently.

I tend to agree that we have two fullbacks who are not great attackers - I'm hopeful that AWB (who is only 22) will improve in this respect and he has got a couple of assists in recent games, possibly due to coaching - but yes, his focus is defensive at the moment. Shaw does make errors, but is fast enough to recover and does cover his centre backs effectively, though at 24, he might still respond to coaching - he doesn't seem to have the confidence to go around the outside at the moment.

In summary, I see the need to create and finish more chances - PP and Bruno should hopefully ramp up our record as they get used to playing with each other (and knock some extra goals in) - I was delighted to see Martial slot three away and hope that will drive him onwards to 18 EPL goals for the season - Marcus needs to find his shooting boots. It's good we've got Ighalo to lead the line in some games and Mason has all the talent develop into a great player.

So on balance, a team in rebuilding, but a long way ahead from this time last year.

I mean that Shaw is not as good defender as if we went for a fullback more capable in the final third, we would not necessarily have a worse defence on paper. Replacing AWB would make our defence worse, but improve our attack. So the logical choice would be to improve on Shaw first...

Having at least one fullback that can be a threat from wide would stop the opponents from putting 10 men in the middle of the pitch to stop PP and Bruno. And they will be able to create and score more if there was more space to operate in when playing against a balanced defence.

 

[Member 113277]

It should be added that 6 of Brunos matches are against Wolves, Spurs, Sheffield U, City, Everton, Chelsea - so hardly the matches where you can expect an average of over 2 goals pr game.

That's a good point and is why we need to re-assess after 38 games, when we will have played a mix of different levels of opponent.

if you look at the difference, since Bruno, between goals for and against it is 1.7-0.4 = 1.3, it is not far behind City (1.5) or Liverpool (1.6) - the difference being that both of those teams have achieved this over 30/31 matches, which is why they are a cut above.

If we maintain a differential of 1.3 next year and bang in a few more goals, we should be there or thereabouts for a top 3 place.

 

[Member 113277]

I mean that Shaw is not as good defender as if we went for a fullback more capable in the final third, we would not necessarily have a worse defence on paper. Replacing AWB would make our defence worse, but improve our attack. So the logical choice would be to improve on Shaw first...

Having at least one fullback that can be a threat from wide would stop the opponents from putting 10 men in the middle of the pitch to stop PP and Bruno. And they will be able to create and score more if there was more space to operate in when playing against a balanced defence.

What do you think about Brandon Williams? He's still young, but there's some potential there.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

What do you think about Brandon Williams? He's still young, but there's some potential there.

Based on his mentality he seems like an ideal squad player, in that he will always give his all no matter what. And he does not seem scared. This rashness can backfire sometimes, but, hopefully, he will temper correctly over the next two years. Ability wise he seems decent, but nothing extraordinary.

Ability wise Laird is far superior to him, and the best-attacking fullback at the club. So I am more excited by him than Williams, but then again Williams is an ideal backup, with homegrown status and a low cost and the mentality you want in a backup.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

We are now joint second for goals conceded in the league behind only Liverpool

 

[ivaldo]

@TheReligion is getting smugger by the day.

 

[vodrake]

Considering how shit Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire and De Gea apparently are, Wan Bissaka should be getting a payrise

 

[Halftrack]

Considering how shit Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire and De Gea apparently are, Wan Bissaka should be getting a payrise

He's been deemed shit too. They're all garbage, and it's only thanks to our opponents complete lack of composure that we've managed to have a fairly solid defensive record.

 

[Maluco]

The reality is that de Gea is still a very good shot stopper (prone to the odd error), Maguire is great, always fit and a super captain (being a bit slow on the turn doesn’t change that). Wan Bissaka is fantastic defensively since day one and is improving going forward as he gains confidence and plays with better footballers.

Lindelof and Shaw can be upgraded, but even at that Lindelof is a good footballer and a valuable member of the squad.

Shaw is solid but hasn’t pushed on and never looks in top condition

 

[He'sRaldo]

Lindelof has improved a lot as the season has gone by, also coinciding with Matic's uptick in form.

 

[The Boy]

Lindelof has improved a lot as the season has gone by, also coinciding with Matic's uptick in form.

It's almost as if coaching actually works!

 

[Red Royal]

I wonder how McTominay would fare in defence along side Maguire. He has the ideal attributes of strength, speed as well as a decent passing range (for a CB).

Would like to see it tried maybe against Bournemouth... didnt we do it for a bit in one of the post covid matches (Spurs?) for a few minutes at the end.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

I wonder how McTominay would fare in defence along side Maguire. He has the ideal attributes of strength, speed as well as a decent passing range (for a CB).

Would like to see it tried maybe against Bournemouth... didnt we do it for a bit in one of the post covid matches (Spurs?) for a few minutes at the end.

But not the "positional/discipline sense" of a CB. At least, not yet.

That Spurs game where he played CB is so bad, had to be taken off asap. He did made good blocks and interceptions, but way off position.
Like a lost sheep.

I can see him grow into the role though with experience but we don't need to, except for situations where it would be a good short minutes tactical role ala Matic or Carrick becoming a CB next to a proper CB against park the bus teams.

 

[He'sRaldo]

It's almost as if coaching actually works!

Tell that to Pereira and JLingz.

 

[The Boy]

Tell that to Pereira and JLingz.

Nah I'll tell it to AWB, Rashford, McT, Fred, Shaw, Lindelof and Martial instead.

EDIT oh Greenwood and Williams as well

 

[He'sRaldo]

Nah I'll tell it to AWB, Rashford, McT, Fred, Shaw, Lindelof and Martial instead.

EDIT oh Greenwood and Williams as well

But those two need to hear it the most. Almost ruined our season by not knowing it.

 

[Number32]

"Its easy to defend when you have great attacking players in front of you" Patrice Evra

I mean, no team would attacked us in full force if we could counter attack them like we did to Brighton regularly.

In the first half of the season, everyone knows Rashford and Martial are the only attacking threat. Our opponents put their eyes on them for 90 minutes, ignore the others then attacking us in full force..

 

[Skeezix]

I think we are underrating our CB's Maguire and Lindelof just like we overrated Smalling and Jones.

Smalling and Jones would put in great performances for 4-5 consecutive matches and then either one will have an injury or a stinker.
They are consistent in this sense, we always know what is coming after the good 4-5 matches, anticipated Clanger! And we are not surprised by it.

Lindelof and Maguire meanwhile are a consistent 7/10 performance every game. And the biggest part is that they are fit and injury free.
They are consistent in a different way. No flashy performances and faces/emotions/expressions.
Clangers are inevitable. But we are mad and surprised when we get it from these two because we do not expect it from this pairing!

Also, right side is safe due to AWB and we finally have a dependable and injury free Luke Shaw.

 

[The Boy]

But those two need to hear it the most. Almost ruined our season by not knowing it.

It's just not that simple though, I couldn't name any team where every player has improved over a season and the fact that so many have this season at United is great credit to Ole and the coaching team. Picking out Lingard and Pereira to show that the coaching doesn't work is like picking out Poborsky, Cryuff and Blomqvuist and saying that coaching didn't work.

I actually think Pereira could improve and has wilted a bit under the pressure, maybe not enough to be a first team pick but definitely as a squad player, Lingared on the other hand is definitely struggling and though I could be wrong I can't see that turning around now.

 

[He'sRaldo]

It's just not that simple though, I couldn't name any team where every player has improved over a season and the fact that so many have this season at United is great credit to Ole and the coaching team. Picking out Lingard and Pereira to show that the coaching doesn't work is like picking out Poborsky, Cryuff and Blomqvuist and saying that coaching didn't work.

I actually think Pereira could improve and has wilted a bit under the pressure, maybe not enough to be a first team pick but definitely as a squad player, Lingared on the other hand is definitely struggling and though I could be wrong I can't see that turning around now.

In general I agree, but not every improvement is down to coaching staff, some are simply down to better team selections. Like AWB benefiting from Greenwood over James, or the defence benefiting from Matic over Fred or Scott. Or the strikers benefiting from playing with other strikers rather than a touchline hugging winger.

I'm sure Ole had his reasons for taking time in implementing the correct changes, but it was a bit frustrating earlier in the season when some of the obvious stuff wasn't being done.

 

[The Boy]

In general I agree, but not every improvement is down to coaching staff, some are simply down to better team selections. Like AWB benefiting from Greenwood over James, or the defence benefiting from Matic over Fred or Scott. Or the strikers benefiting from playing with other strikers rather than a touchline hugging winger.

I'm sure Ole had his reasons for taking time in implementing the correct changes, but it was a bit frustrating earlier in the season when some of the obvious stuff wasn't being done.

Fair enough, I think I have written before here, that Ole, McKenna and Carrick are clearly not the most experienced coaching team United has ever seen and as a result mistakes would be made. but I think they have improved as much as the team as the season has gone. You are benefitting from that now and what I think pretty much every other oppo supporter will envy if they are honest is that the result is a young improving close knit team alongside a young improving coaching team and you are getting better every week that goes by. I genuinely think with the young talent you have emerging and developing at the moment the sky is the limit. Out of all the top teams you are best placed for the future.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Joint second best now...

 

[TheReligion]

@TheReligion is getting smugger by the day.

Ha. I still think it needs work. If we want to be the best you must always look for improvement. I just think as per usual on the Caf there are a number of over dramatic people. Just look at the Maguire thread and my back and fourth with one poster who feels Maguire is a worse centre half than Sokratis, Diop, Rudiger, Stones, Otamendi..

 

[zenith]

The defence is doing really well and long may it continue. Ofcourse they are prone to the occasional lapse owing to pace but it's overall its still coping rather well.

Also ole has got a different system of play in place as well, where shaw can come in as a third CB and that may come in handy when either Maguire or Lindelof is injured.

Also, hoping that axel and Bailey kind of emerge as really good back up choices in the not too distant future

 

[ivaldo]

Ha. I still think it needs work. If we want to be the best you must always look for improvement. I just think as per usual on the Caf there are a number of over dramatic people. Just look at the Maguire thread and my back and fourth with one poster who feels Maguire is a worse centre half than Sokratis, Diop, Rudiger, Stones, Otamendi..

To be fair, that person only thinks that because they're an idiot.

 

[romufc]

Joint second best now...

Yet we have people on here screaming that we have shit players there.

Agendas against Shaw, Lindelof and to a smaller extent Maguire.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

To be fair, that person only thinks that because they're an idiot.

Very true

 

[alexthelion]

I give up. Stay deluded in thinking we've a good defense despite us conceding a goal each game.

A goal a game? Haven't we gone something like 38 goals for and 4 against in our recent run? How is that a goal a game?

 

[Gator Nate]

Tell that to Pereira and JLingz.

"What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach."

 

[roseguy64]

But not the "positional/discipline sense" of a CB. At least, not yet.

That Spurs game where he played CB is so bad, had to be taken off asap. He did made good blocks and interceptions, but way off position.
Like a lost sheep.

I can see him grow into the role though with experience but we don't need to, except for situations where it would be a good short minutes tactical role ala Matic or Carrick becoming a CB next to a proper CB against park the bus teams.

His positioning is the problem for him in both midfield and defence. If he plays enough games and takes on the lessons from Matic and Carrick well he should get better with that.