Fred even considers himself an AM. He's mentioned it several times in interviews.
If our defence is so bad why is it so good?
- Thread starter TheReligion
- Start date
4th best in goals conceded = our defense is so good
Like what?
Our defense isn't so good. Nor is it as bad as people claim.
Like what?
Our defense isn't so good. Nor is it as bad as people claim.
This./
We still rely heavily on moments of brilliance instead of being functional in our play.
We can blame personnel all we like, at a point OgS should install a style of play - prior to the last 10 or so games of ‘give the ball to Bruno’ we’ve been a mess.
Then Fred is clinically insane.
We are quite clearly not a defensive team, we are often exposed to counter attacks due to not having a holding mid and having our full backs pushed up high.
Take the Spurs game as an example, McTs average position was on the right just inside spurs half, this suggests he was covering AWB allowing him to plough forward at will.
This isn't an isolated incident either, raising the fact that we are not a defensive minded team, we're just not great at building attacks and the team works very hard at tracking back leading to us being top of sprinting tables now.
Take the Spurs game as an example, McTs average position was on the right just inside spurs half, this suggests he was covering AWB allowing him to plough forward at will.
This isn't an isolated incident either, raising the fact that we are not a defensive minded team, we're just not great at building attacks and the team works very hard at tracking back leading to us being top of sprinting tables now.
It couldnt be more obvious even from your opening post. The complaints about AWB are about going forward. Defensively he's been the best right back in the league. That doesnt mean he's also the best in the air, he has his strengths and weaknesses. But his defensive strengths are what any CB would love to have next to them.
Maguire is solid, just slow and expensive.
Shaw is a bit up and down but generally pretty solid
3/5 parts of a very good defense
Because Kante is back from injury so Lampard has changed it to get him in. The Chelsea fans want him sold and Gilmour playing actually. When he was out, Chelsea have actually played their best football.Those players really aren't in the same mold as Pogba/Bruno. If it was so successful why aren't Chelsea using it now? If we are going to dilute the definition that much, then we might as well include a 'clogger' like Fred in that category. Problem solved We're already doing it!
He was fine playing next to Fred and McSauce, and just about covered the ground he needed to. But on his own with Pogba and Bruno in front of him?
The system works fine with Pogba/Bruno. If Silva/KDB can play together, so can they, simple as. Compared to the creative mids i listed, as much as like him, Fred is a clogger. He's more Kante like.
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Exactly, if the team is coached properly, it's not a problem at all. Matic' screening ability & ability on the ball far outweighs his lack of mobility in that type of system.
It was Euro 2012 actually I am talking about when Spain played without a striker. They scored the most goals (12) in the tournament beating Italy 4-0 in the final. They weren't massively attacking, but my point is formations and positions on paper can be misleading, hence why people are arguing about our players positions.
I can't imagine that's a popular opinion.
I want them both playing too, but not as attacking midfielders leaving Matic on his own. I've watched Matic lose his man far too often to think this is anything but madness. There's a reason why Pep plays a mobile, tenacious player at the base of his midfield.
Maguire and AWB are top players honestly (defensively at least) there needs to perhaps be a top CB between them two and a lot of the issues are gone.
I think the main issue is there isn't a world class DM to sit in-front of them.
Even at Liverpool and City they have brilliant DMs capable of stamping out attacks before it even reaches the CBs.
When you have players that hassle attackers before they reach your defence it goes a long way to stop attacks, United really don't have that.
At Barca for instance Lenglet and Pique aren't the fastest, they can read the game but having Busquets and Vidal makes their lives so much easier.
The same can be said at City with Fernandinho, Liverpool with Fabinho.
Also if you have top forwards at a club (again look at City, Barca, Liverpool) you also have teams pinned back enough that it also takes pressure off your team.
United have the problem of being flat-footed at times, which allows teams to counter/commit more.
Also no offence to players like AWB (best defender in the league for me as a fullback) but if he goes forward, you know he won't do much besides pass it around. You can occupy the space he left, because teams aren't in fear of him getting forward.
I think the main issue is there isn't a world class DM to sit in-front of them.
Even at Liverpool and City they have brilliant DMs capable of stamping out attacks before it even reaches the CBs.
When you have players that hassle attackers before they reach your defence it goes a long way to stop attacks, United really don't have that.
At Barca for instance Lenglet and Pique aren't the fastest, they can read the game but having Busquets and Vidal makes their lives so much easier.
The same can be said at City with Fernandinho, Liverpool with Fabinho.
Also if you have top forwards at a club (again look at City, Barca, Liverpool) you also have teams pinned back enough that it also takes pressure off your team.
United have the problem of being flat-footed at times, which allows teams to counter/commit more.
Also no offence to players like AWB (best defender in the league for me as a fullback) but if he goes forward, you know he won't do much besides pass it around. You can occupy the space he left, because teams aren't in fear of him getting forward.
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Just re-watching the spurs game now. Was a little drunk when it was live but it's exactly how I remember it so far (40 mins). United largely bossing it, the team are pressing high and look compact and fairly dangerous. The team are all moving up as a unit and often playing a high line, which is where the difficult moments have come from.
Devilish is having a mare in this thread. Does he watch our matches or comment on how he thinks we play based on his perception of the line-up?
From what I recall we were even more the better side in the second half. So far we've been pretty good. Rashford is clearly rusty and could (should) have had two. James and Martial havent been in the game enough.
Devilish is having a mare in this thread. Does he watch our matches or comment on how he thinks we play based on his perception of the line-up?
From what I recall we were even more the better side in the second half. So far we've been pretty good. Rashford is clearly rusty and could (should) have had two. James and Martial havent been in the game enough.
Kante is a fan favourite, so maybe not, but there's definitely rumblings of it. He's not getting any younger, has injury troubles and isn't actually key in Lampard's system, so i can understand it.
You do remember we beat City with Matic, Fred & Bruno before lockdown? We could also play Fred & Matic base, with Bruno & Pogba ahead and get rid of the weak link in James in the process. That would work wouldn't it?
Pep doesn't always play mobile players at dm. He played Javi Martinez in that role at Bayern. Don't forget we have defensive full-backs in Shaw & AWB who could come inside and cover for Matic's mobility.
I feel like we don't concede many chances, but are often punished by our lack of control in matches and inability to break down teams. I think back to games like Newcastle and Southampton away, Villa and Wolves at home etc, where we should be winning those matches and get punished or just fail to find that killer blow.
It adds pressure on our back line when you know that one chance for the opposition and you're facing a serious uphill battle. Instead of working on cutting those defensive errors out of our game to turn 2-1 and 3-1 results into clean sheets, we often find ourselves poised on a knife edge. I imagine it has a huge psychological effect.
In short, I feel Maguire has improved our defence to a level where it's good but not great, but our biggest defensive weakness stems from other areas of the pitch in my opinion.
It adds pressure on our back line when you know that one chance for the opposition and you're facing a serious uphill battle. Instead of working on cutting those defensive errors out of our game to turn 2-1 and 3-1 results into clean sheets, we often find ourselves poised on a knife edge. I imagine it has a huge psychological effect.
In short, I feel Maguire has improved our defence to a level where it's good but not great, but our biggest defensive weakness stems from other areas of the pitch in my opinion.
Yes, Matic AND Fred. That's my point. Fred has 3 lungs. He put in some serious miles that game.
That's a possibility. I would prefer to have Greenwood on the right though. It's refreshing it have so many options hey?
Whatever, according to your argument, since we're in 5th place, that makes us good.
Let's just ignore to 30+ points gap between us and Liverpool, we're only seperated by 3 teams in the table anyway.
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I'm quite sure that a lot of people half watch the games, just to come on here and moan, and a lot of people forget what they have actually been watching after reading the moaning and it replaces the actual memory they had of the game. It's why people regurgitate the shit other people comes out with, then it further develops into agendas and all other sorts of weird bullshit.
Because of individual defensive talents.
As a defensive unit, I don't like the chemistry, it's not bad but it's not good either. The holes are there but it won't get exploited as much because of the defenders defensive talents.. individually.
All 4 of our defenders are that good at defending despite the popular claim that they are not. There are weaknessss obviously.
AWB --- monster tackler, strong in 1 on 1, dribble or run past him by is difficult.
(Weakness - decision making in positioning defensively, who to mark and how tightly should he press, this isn't obvious for now because of his other good skills)
Shaw --- he's good at 1 on 1 and have pace. Good composure when defending. He's good at "containing" players and marking.
(Weakness - lapses of concentration)
Mag --- he's strong n very good at times dealing with any situations on the ground and air.....
(Weakness - ...except against pacy and tricky players.)
Lind --- most improved defensively. I don't think he's bad in the air anymore. Everything's smooth, rarely make mistakes now. He knows his limitations.
(Weakness - can't do anything spectacular meaning better players can beat him 1on1, and so needs the other better defenders to cover him while he acts more as good supporting character.)
DDG --- god-like potentials talent in keeping. Air or dealing with crosses and set piece isn't a weakness anymore.
(Weakness - making "errors" more frequently now)
TLDR
So there ya go, all 5 players are that good defensively.
Strong individually but I wouldn't say it's well balance as a defensive unit. Chemistry for me isn't that good too, just fine enough to not get in each others way but didn't brought out the best in each other.
Exploit their respective obvious weaknesses to score or to have a better chance. (No need to include Jones, Bailly, Williams and Dalot ryte? We're more exposed defensively when they play.)
As a defensive unit, I don't like the chemistry, it's not bad but it's not good either. The holes are there but it won't get exploited as much because of the defenders defensive talents.. individually.
All 4 of our defenders are that good at defending despite the popular claim that they are not. There are weaknessss obviously.
AWB --- monster tackler, strong in 1 on 1, dribble or run past him by is difficult.
(Weakness - decision making in positioning defensively, who to mark and how tightly should he press, this isn't obvious for now because of his other good skills)
Shaw --- he's good at 1 on 1 and have pace. Good composure when defending. He's good at "containing" players and marking.
(Weakness - lapses of concentration)
Mag --- he's strong n very good at times dealing with any situations on the ground and air.....
(Weakness - ...except against pacy and tricky players.)
Lind --- most improved defensively. I don't think he's bad in the air anymore. Everything's smooth, rarely make mistakes now. He knows his limitations.
(Weakness - can't do anything spectacular meaning better players can beat him 1on1, and so needs the other better defenders to cover him while he acts more as good supporting character.)
DDG --- god-like potentials talent in keeping. Air or dealing with crosses and set piece isn't a weakness anymore.
(Weakness - making "errors" more frequently now)
TLDR
So there ya go, all 5 players are that good defensively.
Strong individually but I wouldn't say it's well balance as a defensive unit. Chemistry for me isn't that good too, just fine enough to not get in each others way but didn't brought out the best in each other.
Exploit their respective obvious weaknesses to score or to have a better chance. (No need to include Jones, Bailly, Williams and Dalot ryte? We're more exposed defensively when they play.)
They were quite boring that tournament, drew with Italy on opening match, eked out a 1-0 win again Croatia, beat the fodder of the group Ireland 4-0, then 2-0 vs France, won on pen vs Portugal after 0-0.
If not for that final destruction of Italy, the consensus would have been they played a much too defensive and boring passing game with the insane amount of talents in that squad. Of their 3 consecutive int. tourney wins during 08-12, the Luis Aragones team of 08 was actually the most pleasing to watch.
2) As for our midfielders,
Nothing against Fred but he and Pogba (and Bruno) are more supporting cast here filling up numbers at the back and the sometimes good tackles + interceptions when they drop to help. They did it consistently too with good effort so that help cutdown spaces.
McT and Matic helps defences the most with their all around defending talents. Individually Matic provided composure and shape to defences while McT may pop up with last ditch tackles or blocks.
3) As for our forwards,
I don't think we play high press anymore generally. Our wingers doesn't always drop back to help defenses except James mindset. So all 3 of them maintain position at the top "pull" or "hold" some opposing players from attacking.
4) As for opposing teams, our opponents...
Generally majority of teams that we faced are park the bus teams, who didn't mind getting a point with the occassional try to nick 3 points when hitting a quick counter. Teams know we're so bad vs low blocks so easy 1 points.
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So those 4 reasons (1st is my earlier post) are why our defence and concede stats are that good but actually "bad" in a way if you take into consideration the whole picture.
We were somewhat defensive this season which reflects on our fancy stats people like to big or proud of.
Nothing against Fred but he and Pogba (and Bruno) are more supporting cast here filling up numbers at the back and the sometimes good tackles + interceptions when they drop to help. They did it consistently too with good effort so that help cutdown spaces.
McT and Matic helps defences the most with their all around defending talents. Individually Matic provided composure and shape to defences while McT may pop up with last ditch tackles or blocks.
3) As for our forwards,
I don't think we play high press anymore generally. Our wingers doesn't always drop back to help defenses except James mindset. So all 3 of them maintain position at the top "pull" or "hold" some opposing players from attacking.
4) As for opposing teams, our opponents...
Generally majority of teams that we faced are park the bus teams, who didn't mind getting a point with the occassional try to nick 3 points when hitting a quick counter. Teams know we're so bad vs low blocks so easy 1 points.
--------
So those 4 reasons (1st is my earlier post) are why our defence and concede stats are that good but actually "bad" in a way if you take into consideration the whole picture.
We were somewhat defensive this season which reflects on our fancy stats people like to big or proud of.
Haha yes he did. I put him as my motm that game too. The more i think about it, we can't leave Fred out, his stamina is something else.
A classic Brazilian 'box' or 'magic circle' system would work well with us. Fred & Matic DM, then Pogba & Bruno CAMs & Martial & Rashford in the ST pairing. It sounds perfect doesn't it?
City used to play it with Pellegrini (it's his key system), do you remember? They had Fernandinho & Toure, Silva & Nasri on the sides with Aguero & Tevez up front.
Yeah it's good to have options again, just need Ole to fit the parts together now.
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Our two fullbacks are probably among the best defensively in the league. But also, are defense minded and hence contribute little going forwards. We usually play two CMs whose strengths and role lies in protection/recycling possession/harrying/tackling more than taking the team forward and creating chances. We don't play a very progressive style of football that pushes teams back and dominates. We usually look to break with pace and power.
All of that definitely makes for a team that tries to control games and often does, but nobody would call gung ho or highly adventurous in attack. Ole likes quick and direct attacking but also a strong amount of protection at the back.
Now, maintaining a great record while being a caviliear team is another matter. I'd like to see is set up with one DM with Pogba and Bruno and Shaw and AWB being more intent on contributing in the final third. More overlapping runs etc
To sum it up,
- Defensive quality - strong at fullback, okay at CB (Lindelof average, Maguire good but not great)
- Set up - enough defense minded players to offer a good amount of protection
I don’t think it’s that bad, but still room for improvement
Certainly don’t see any reason to change things for the last 8 games, we’re not conceding many chance at all
Certainly don’t see any reason to change things for the last 8 games, we’re not conceding many chance at all
Still it was a mistake that if it didn't happened then the chance would, have most probably, fizzled into nothing. Most penalties are like that.
I also feel that the we're going into circles so let's try and wrap this up. You think that a defence made up of two defensive full backs that create almost nothing when going forward + Fred and McT in midfield & James is creative. What I see on the pitch, the stats and the many fans who are begging Ole to play Pogba & Greenwood and for us to buy Sancho don't.
So just one team? But fair dues, I want to see the trio you mentioned play together too. But to call Fred and McT defensive minded/specialised in defence is not accurate IMO. Fred is actually a smart passer of the ball. Matic is our only defensive specialist in midfield, hence why 90% of the Caf is crying out for us looking for a DM in the transfer window.
I'll give you City but Leicester? Tielemans - Ndidi - Maddison - if anything that's more 'defensive' that Bruno-McT-Fred since Ndidi is a holding player.
The whole point being him saying us playing with 7 specialised defensive players is wildly inaccurate.
I think defensive stats need to be taken into consideration with attacking stats.
Team A- 20 conceded/ 30 goals scored
Team B- 24 conceded/ 50 goals scored
Yeah team A has a better defensive record but not necessarily better defenders because Team B are more of an attacking team. Its easy to have good defensive stats if you dont attack as much. If we can get another 20 goals or so and keep similar defensive stats then we will know how good the defense is.
On a side note I couldnt find the stats but I bet our defensive record with Matic is much better than without him. Which is why he should play.
Team A- 20 conceded/ 30 goals scored
Team B- 24 conceded/ 50 goals scored
Yeah team A has a better defensive record but not necessarily better defenders because Team B are more of an attacking team. Its easy to have good defensive stats if you dont attack as much. If we can get another 20 goals or so and keep similar defensive stats then we will know how good the defense is.
On a side note I couldnt find the stats but I bet our defensive record with Matic is much better than without him. Which is why he should play.
You said that for our defense to be considered good because we are either creating too little in attack or allowing too many chances. So the point is about creating chances, whether it's going to be goal or no, players are in dangerous position and about to create chance or a shot before being fouled in a penalty area.
What are you on about? I don't remember I even said such a thing.
I feel the same way except that we always seem to get punished when we concede those chances due to individual mistakes by players.
There's only so far you can attribute it to bad luck when it's been happening since the start of the season.
Adding a striker who can get us goals is crucial because Martial just doesn't do much unless he scores and that allows the other team to snatch back control of the game as we're effectively playing with 10 men for the majority of the game, and that adds even more burden on the defence to not concede.
Watching games again later on is kinda fun/interesting, you see it with different eyes. Nerves tend to get the better of us when watching it live.
We played spurs away and were the better and more positive team and should have won it. That in itself is a step forward. If we have a fully fit team now i don´t see us sitting back against any team. Mourinhos extremely low defence should be a nightmare for most teams to break down, not just us.
The second half was outrageously one-sided. Partly due to Spurs defending their lead but mainly because they just couldnt get out of their half. It was extremely dominant.
Now I've watched it through sober eyes I'm convinced that this was an extremely encouraging opening performance from us after lockdown.
Yes usually when we are a goal behind. We hardly look like scoring and just look lethargic. In this game my heart was in my hand because I just kept expecting us to score. This game felt more like "United don't lose they just run out of time"
That's because United are a club who should be challenging for titles. Not pissing about in a struggle for 5th/6th every year.
You would find the exact same with fans of Madrd, Barca, Juve and Bayern. It is up to us to demand better of the club because God knows, our owners and CEO aren't going to when in their own words, success is not dependant on our onfield results.
Some of you lot would be better suited to supporting clubs like Everton or West Ham.
Pretty sure we've conceded the least goals out of any club in 2020. So take that for what you will.
Wouldn't football be more fun if you cheered for the team and players, not looked for every chance to yell at them?
I'm struggling to see why you're not seeing the myriad of positive things happening wit the club these days. 2020 has been a very good year for Manchester United so far.
People do forget even City lost at Spurs few months back.
To be honest, I've been very positive about the club this season. You won't find too many posts of mine giving out because I think Ole is the right man and is slowly rooting out the rot.
I just get annoyed sometimes with the happy clappy brigade on here who are so quick to jump on anyone with a dissenting opinion.
It would be different if we were challenging but we're not, and haven't been for 8 years. Lads should be allowed to complain - if it were the fans of any other major European club they'd have been burning stuff long ago.
But have you won a quintuple with Manchester United and all the fancy muppet transfers you can think of on Football Manager?
To be honest, the defensive record isn't all that great. We're joint 4th, but given that City have scored 30 more goals than us at the same time, I dont think there's much to be proud of there. Palace and Wolves are close behind us too. From a defensive point of view, we're vying to be in the top 7 teams by the end of the season. That about sums up our record.
Or Pogba could have picked someone out in the box? We don't know and nor did Dier. All he knew is a very attacking phase of play was happening and he needed to stop it. He did a bad job of stopping it.
I have never said I think it is creative nor has @UNITED ACADEMY. Equally you clearly aren't watching the amount of times in a game Shaw is on the overlap or AWB is attempting to go forward too. But it's very hard to create against a deep block every manager complains about it Klopp, Pep etc numerous interviews bemoaning the deep block. The issue throughout the season has consistently been that our BEST creative players aren't on the pitch due to injury. That's a huge difference to saying the team is inherently defensive.
I won't speak for UA but there is a massive difference between accepting McTominay and Fred have offensive and creative abilities at a level below Pogba and Bruno and calling them defensive players. They are not pure defensive players. They are box to box. Both offensive and defensive. Daniel James is also an offensive player. He's built for counter attacking and is our top assist recorder in the PL this season. He's not the most creative but that's never been his function.
I would love us to play one of two set ups:
McT Pogba
Greenwood Bruno Rashford
Martial
Matic
Bruno Pogba
Greenwood Martial Rashford
Greenwood Bruno Rashford
Martial
Matic
Bruno Pogba
Greenwood Martial Rashford
But those set ups required players that we either didn't have at the start of the season (Bruno) or have been injured for significant chunks (Pogba). I am not sure what you expected Ole to do without his best midfielder and without a player like Bruno until January but I think the fact we've come close with the injuries we've had is admirable.
On a side note the fact you've managed to get @UNITED ACADEMY and myself to agree on something just shows how far down the path you've gone on this one.
Have you watched Tielemans and Maddison play much? The inclusion of Ndidi allows them much more offensive freedom. I am not assuming a midfield of Bruno, McT, Fred I'm comparing to Pogba, Bruno and Matic or Pogba, Bruno and McT.
I actually think the Leicester midfield is the closest example of what ours will end up mirroring if we play Matic. Hear me out.
Per 90 across all comps (needed for enough data).
If you look at the data you can see Maddison and Tielemans are inherently more creative. I think they are BTEC versions of Bruno and Pogba. Ndidi is clearly a more proactive DM than Matic, but Matic shows more on the ball skill.
| Player | Minutes | Goals | Assists | Shots | Key Passes | Pass % | Long Balls | Dribbles | Aerials Won | Interceptions | Tackles | Dribbled Past |
| Ndidi | 1982 | 0 | 0 | 0.8 | 0.5 | 83.8 | 2.7 | 0.6 | 2.8 | 2.6 | 3.9 | 1.4 |
| Matic | 1363 | 1 | 1 | 0.5 | 0.8 | 84.7 | 2.5 | 1.4 | 1.6 | 1.1 | 1.9 | 1 |
| Tielemans | 2230 | 5 | 5 | 1.6 | 1.3 | 82.3 | 2.6 | 0.8 | 0.7 | 0.6 | 1.2 | 1.3 |
| Pogba (not much data) | 548 | 0 | 2 | 1.9 | 2 | 83.3 | 5.5 | 1.4 | 1.9 | 0.4 | 1.5 | 0.8 |
| Maddison | 2747 | 10 | 4 | 2.3 | 2.6 | 83.3 | 2.4 | 1.6 | 0.2 | 0.4 | 2 | 1.3 |
| Bruno (Includes NOS for sufficient data) | 2700 | 17 | 14 | 3.8 | 3 | 75.6 | 3.5 | 1.6 | 0.7 | 0.5 | 2 | 1.5 |
@BenitoSTARR
McT has 0.8 key passes per game and Fred 1.3.
More than Tielemans and Ndidi combined. The former has more goals and assists though so I can accept he is more creative/offensive than Fred/McT. But as a trio, can it not be argued that the United trio is as “offensive” as the Leicester trio given we don’t field a DM a la Ndidi. Or at the least, not “defensive specialists?”
That’s the only thing I have an issue with, the notion that we field 7 defensive specialists. When it’s clearly not the case. Can we be more creative? Hell yes. But are we defensive. No.
Bruno-Matic-Pogba sounds fun but is going to leave the Serb with a hell of a screening job as he’s not as mobile as Ndidi. Which technically also makes a case that in a situation where Pogba doesn’t leave, a DM is our first priority.
McT has 0.8 key passes per game and Fred 1.3.
More than Tielemans and Ndidi combined. The former has more goals and assists though so I can accept he is more creative/offensive than Fred/McT. But as a trio, can it not be argued that the United trio is as “offensive” as the Leicester trio given we don’t field a DM a la Ndidi. Or at the least, not “defensive specialists?”
That’s the only thing I have an issue with, the notion that we field 7 defensive specialists. When it’s clearly not the case. Can we be more creative? Hell yes. But are we defensive. No.
Bruno-Matic-Pogba sounds fun but is going to leave the Serb with a hell of a screening job as he’s not as mobile as Ndidi. Which technically also makes a case that in a situation where Pogba doesn’t leave, a DM is our first priority.