My point is that most of the players we've been using aren't shit. AWB, Maguire, McT, Fred, Lindelof and Shaw are defensive minded not shit. That has an impact on our stats. We've been decent in terms of defensive stats but our assist/goals stats are suffering.
Isn't it obvious? City.
Leicester and City would be good examples
We won 2-0 against City and we had more shots with no penalty needed. It isn't because we don't create more but the quality was just not there.
You are relativizing things like the problem is only in our head cause we are spoiled brats. Truth is, we are 37 points off the top while having 46 points in total after 30 games. We have won only 12 out of 30 matches (all-time low in EPL), and are in course for a 58 point season (we got 64 points under Moyes).
Mate don't be so literal. Me using one example doesn't negate a wider point that they aren't adding the supposed value to our play.
Nope. I've asked 3 times now, @devilish is just ignoring it at this point. Maybe he'll finally answer.
Good job we don't play 6 or 7 defensive minded players then. McTominay and Fred certainly arent. McTominay was playing as a CF just a few years ago and Fred is a pretty progressive passer from deep. But again, by your logic that makes Liverpool a defensive minded team.
You are confusing with player who is also used to offer something in attack but "have no quality" with player who is also used to offer something in attack but "have the quality". It's not like we always set both our full back stay back all the time.
Actually, they were quite defensive. Defensive in a different way, same as us under LVG, but still a defensive team. They didn't create many chances, they won every game in KO stage 1-0, in dubious circumstances (Paraguay lost a penalty, the goal against Portugal should have been ruled offside, and Holland created some good chances).
And AWB was a right winder until a few years ago. Means nothing.
Well, based from what I watch, I see the difference & the manager also see the difference.
Keep going. The point being its actually quite rare to see.
He's in the team as an all rounder.
That's not the point. Our goal scoring rate is already disappointing. Get the penalties (ie usually opponents mistakes) out of the picture and it get worse.
City do but that's not important as formations vary from team to team. Having said that I can't think of many top clubs who play with 7 players who are specialised in defending rather then attacking. I can't think of any top clubs who play with a back four made up of solely defensive players.
So what you’re suggesting is he could go to the attacking area and back to the defensive area?
Why would you discount penalties which are usually an indication of the team making a very threatening offensive action that required fouling to prevent?
Good job we don't then.
We have two fullbacks who look lost and useless once they go past our own half. AWB has 2 assists. Shaw has none. All our defence has less assists in them then Robinson, Alexander-Trent, Aurier, Digne and Azpilicueta.
It's a box somethin' somethin'. On the tip of my tongue...
Most penalties happens because because of opponent's mistakes rather then being an obstruction to the inevitable goal. Take Pogba's penalty against Spurs. If the Spurs player didn't pulled him down then that chance would have probably fizzle into nothing.
Leicester use it too. Chelsea have used it with Gilmour, Mount & Barkley this season. Real used it with Casemiro, Kroos & Modric. Bayern under Pep used it. It's a possession based system, but i guess that has no business here. We must have cloggers in midfield right?
Legendary trio at Barcelona as well. I think besides offering more even coverage along the midfield, the main thing is each midfielder needs to up their workrate a bit more to cover for their fellow attacking mids. Then it becomes easy to play, as a lot of the defending will be done with the ball.
Pogba forced a desperate defensive action due to good play. Mistakes/penalties happen when offensive actions force defenders to take a chance.
The point is more to acknowledge the inclusion of those defensive players affected our defense positively, but our attack negatively.
Those players really aren't in the same mold as Pogba/Bruno. If it was so successful why aren't Chelsea using it now? If we are going to dilute the definition that much, then we might as well include a 'clogger' like Fred in that category. Problem solved We're already doing it!
I am not taking away from Pogba but lets face it, if that Spurs player didn't commit himself that the chance would have fizzled into nothing. Most penalties are down to individual mistakes made by defenders rather then a desperate bid to avoid the inevitable.
Modric and Kroos played attacking mid for Spurs and Bayern respectively, while Barkley played attacking mid for Everton and obviously Mount is an attacking mid at Chelsea. Maddison played attacking mid for Norwich as well.Those players really aren't in the same mold as Pogba/Bruno. If we are going to dilute the definition that much, then we might as well include Fred in that category. Problem solved! We're already doing it!
He was fine playing next to Fred and McSauce, and just about covered the ground he needed to. But on his own with Pogba and Bruno in front of him?
It’s almost like all good teams treat defending as a team responsibility not an individuals and that the fundamentals of solid defensive play (of which we have displayed numerous times this season) are rooted in positioning and organisation of a unit over one overburdened player.
You'll need to start getting rid this defensive minded or offensive minded. [Irrelevant point] is known with his attacking threat. Replace Robertson with Alonso, they will still have same amount of attacking minded but without a doubt defensively they will be much worse with him than Robertson. And if we replace Fred-Scott with Rice-Scott, we'll be much worse in attack but improve in defense.
And McTominay played AM then as a striker for us, while Fed played as an AM for Shaktar. So we must already be doing it then.
I agree, which also explains why some think our defence (aka CB partnership) isn't that good despite the numbers. Because our team setup has helped those numbers, but some think it's at the expense of a more expansive setup.
That's because our team is cramped centrally because we have nothing on the flanks (particularly on the right). Limiting all our possession to the centre and left. It's been like this for years.
Scott has played only CM, DM, and CB at senior level. Fred played in a double pivot at Shakhtar, pretty much the same role he has now.
But my point is the precursor to that action without the offensive action there is no defensive action. You can’t argue that Dier was going to drag Pogba into the box and foul him. Pogba attacked, Dier (who had not support from Winks) had to challenge a stronger better opponent and fouled him. If you want to stick to the Dier made a mistake narrative ask yourself would that mistake happen and would the penalty happen without Pogba performing an offensive action. If the answer is no then it’s the result of offensive play regardless of how stupid a decision it was Pogba forced a decision to be made Dier chose poorly.
