If Pep Had Stayed At Barca...

Zeki Zico

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
386
Would Pep Guardiola already be considered the greatest manager in the history of the game if he had stayed at Barca? Pep decided to leave Barca in 2012 having won 14 major trophies during his time at the club.

So let's say Pep stayed and he matched what Barca won in terms of trophies , even though it's more likely he would of won more. So Pep wins another treble and let's say he's got 20 trophies to his name in just 8 years at Barca. Should he be considered the greatest ever?
 
Zeki Zico said:
Would Pep Guardiola already be considered the greatest manager in the history of the game if he had stayed at Barca? Pep decided to leave Barca in 2012 having won 14 major trophies during his time at the club.

So let's say Pep stayed and he matched what Barca won in terms of trophies , even though it's more likely he would of won more. So Pep wins another treble and let's say he's got 20 trophies to his name in just 8 years at Barca. Should he be considered the greatest ever?
Click to expand...

He had reasons to leave Barca. He went because he felt that he did not have the attention of the players anymore and the dressing room was not fully behind him (apart from other problems with the club).

Barca has had this three/four intensive successful years then in which the players - that usually just does not go on like this. Not without changes. You have to change half of the players - or change the coach.

I know you all had Fergie in charge and that worked even in years in which the club was less successful - but that relationship between club and coach is not like this everywhere. Elsewhere if the success ain't like it was before (what is pretty normal after you had successful years) the press starts to get negative, that opens the door for unsatisfied players... - and at the end you leave anyhow.
 
Zeki Zico said:
Would Pep Guardiola already be considered the greatest manager in the history of the game if he had stayed at Barca? Pep decided to leave Barca in 2012 having won 14 major trophies during his time at the club.

So let's say Pep stayed and he matched what Barca won in terms of trophies , even though it's more likely he would of won more. So Pep wins another treble and let's say he's got 20 trophies to his name in just 8 years at Barca. Should he be considered the greatest ever?
Click to expand...

He would have been considered the greatest by many IMHO.
 
I don't agree. Unless Pep takes on a tougher assignment and takes them to the top, doubts will always remain about his pedigree. Till now he has always managed the strongest team in the league and managed multiple world class players and a GOAT player.

He may yet do this during the remaining part of his career. He is a great manager but needs to challenge himself more to be considered the best of all time.
 
Subho611 said:
I don't agree. Unless Pep takes on a tougher assignment and takes them to the top, doubts will always remain about his pedigree. Till now he has always managed the strongest team in the league and managed multiple world class players and a GOAT player.

He may yet do this during the remaining part of his career. He is a great manager but needs to challenge himself more to be considered the best of all time.
Click to expand...
Agreed. In comparison, the United side SAF took over and built into the giant today was nothing like the Barca that Pep took over. Doesn't mean his place as one of greatest managers around isn't already cemented anyways.
 
Last edited:
Subho611 said:
I don't agree. Unless Pep takes on a tougher assignment and takes them to the top, doubts will always remain about his pedigree. Till now he has always managed the strongest team in the league and managed multiple world class players and a GOAT player.

He may yet do this during the remaining part of his career. He is a great manager but needs to challenge himself more to be considered the best of all time.
Click to expand...

:confused:

Goat?

Edit: Got it, got it, a bit slow today!
 
You can't be the greatest manager of all time after only 8 years of managing. That would be silly. So of course not.
 
No. Two reasons. The first that he'll need some sort of significant over-achievement relative to the resources he had to call on, see Ferguson at Aberdeen, Mourinho at Porto, Clough at Forest, Simeone at Atletico, and so on. The second is the whole issue about having to rebuild while staying successful. Moving one set of players on, phasing in a new set, and crucially adapting your approach to take account of changes within the game. Doing all of that whilst staying at the top is what makes Ferguson stand out from the pack.
 
If pep takes Bayern to the CL title this year (plus walks the German league again) is that not pretty impressive as well?

If he then does go on to achieve further success with Bayern or indeed if he comes to the premier league and wins the league plus makes city, us, chelsea, arsenal or whoever else he is linked with this week challenge for the CL then again thats pretty impressive as well.

The best manager ever is always going to be subjective and of course People will always question how Pep would do with less talented players because he has never had to prove himself in that environment but for me personally I dont think I would rate him any higher if he had stayed at Barca (infact I think many would just say he is lucky because he has just managed messi and messi has won stuff not pep - at least at Bayern you have to give him credit for what he has done)
 
Gio said:
No. Two reasons. The first that he'll need some sort of significant over-achievement relative to the resources he had to call on, see Ferguson at Aberdeen, Mourinho at Porto, Clough at Forest, Simeone at Atletico, and so on. The second is the whole issue about having to rebuild while staying successful. Moving one set of players on, phasing in a new set, and crucially adapting your approach to take account of changes within the game. Doing all of that whilst staying at the top is what makes Ferguson stand out from the pack.
Click to expand...
While I agree, I think in the more continental definition of a manager, which is probably better described as a coach, I think that things like influencing the playing style, the tactics in general or proving your worth in both club and international football are also important points in the ticklist. You don't have to do exactly what Ferguson did, just better, to become the greatest manager of all time. There's a variety of things to do and Ferguson hasn't done all of them either. See for example Rinus Michels, who had a longlasting effect on football tactics, a crazy influence at two big clubs, won the biggest prices in club football, built one of the greatest club sides ever and translated both playing style and success to the international stage with the WC final in '74 and the so far only tournament win for the Netherlands at the Euro '88.

I do rate Ferguson as the greatest manager of all time, but I think it's a bit silly to expect Guardiola to take over a smaller club to prove his worth just because his career started in a totally different way than the ones of others. There's a lot to do as a manager, many truely great things that Ferguson never did. Let's see what path he chooses over the next decades.
 
Balu said:
While I agree, I think in the more continental definition of a manager, which is probably better described as a coach, I think that things like influencing the playing style, the tactics in general or proving your worth in both club and international football are also important points in the ticklist. You don't have to do exactly what Ferguson did, just better, to become the greatest manager of all time. There's a variety of things to do and Ferguson hasn't done all of them either. See for example Rinus Michels, who had a longlasting effect on football tactics, a crazy influence at two big clubs, won the biggest prices in club football, built one of the greatest club sides ever and translated both playing style and success to the international stage with the WC final in '74 and the so far only tournament win for the Netherlands at the Euro '88.

I do rate Ferguson as the greatest manager of all time, but I think it's a bit silly to expect Guardiola to take over a smaller club to prove his worth just because his career started in a totally different way than the ones of others. There's a lot to do as a manager, many truely great things that Ferguson never did. Let's see what path he chooses over the next decades.
Click to expand...
Certainly. My post focused on the two areas Guardiola currently falls short to be considered as the greatest of all time. Of course he scores highly on the other elements of managerial greatness, particularly success and influence. Success being fairly self explanatory in light of his achievements at Barcelona and to a lesser extent Bayern. The influence of the changes he spearheaded from 2008 is widespread across the game and effectively places him in a small group of managers who have had such a wider impact.
 
Hard to consider him the best ever when he's still only 44. That said, had he stayed I'd imagine he'd be sitting on 5 CLs at the moment which would certainly put him in a unique category.
 
Fergie did much more for us than he did for them.
Pep just managed the team (excellently, obviously), Fergie transformed the club.
SAF also never let his grasp slip, despite lots of issues to deal with regarding players playing up, big egos, and huge changes in the club.
 
Raoul said:
Hard to consider him the best ever when he's still only 44. That said, had he stayed I'd imagine he'd be sitting on 5 CLs at the moment which would certainly put him in a unique category.
Click to expand...
How would they be sitting on 5 CL's...they've managed to win 1 since he's left. He was already struggling in big games in his last season and that struggle has continued into his reign at Bayern despite taking over the single best club side at the time.
 
RooneyLegend said:
How would they be sitting on 5 CL's...they've managed to win 1 since he's left. He was already struggling in big games in his last season and that struggle has continued into his reign at Bayern despite taking over the single best club side at the time.
Click to expand...

Obvioulsy because he's not the managers who only managed one. He would've clearly been a cut above the likes of Tito and that old Argie fella, and on par with last year's side.
 
Yes, what he's done throughout his career is bloody impressive, but I'd like to see how he goes staying at a club for 8-10 years.
 
Raoul said:
Obvioulsy because he's not the managers who only managed one. He would've clearly been a cut above the likes of Tito and that old Argie fella, and on par with last year's side.
Click to expand...
He's gone to manage none at a team that had reached back to back finals and won one emphatically before he got there. Being a cut above those guys and winning the CL are a different thing altogether. Tito managed to restore them to the level they were the season the last won la liga. Saying he'd have 5 insinuates that he'd have won 3 in a row and he didn't look anywhere close to that in his last 2 seasons.

Last years side was caused almost exclusively by the Suarez transfer and a few tactical movements that you can't be sure that they'd have made had he stayed there. He still hasn't adjusted to teams that can defend deep and play out well from the back.
 
Don't think he's been majorly impressive at Bayern. Any manager would dominate Germany with that squad, the test is Europe where he's been thrashed in both semi finals he's been in charge of.
 
He'll always have questions raised about the teams he's managed, both teams are so strong they could probably win their leagues without a manager. If he came to United or Arsenal and brought them to the next level and won the Champions League and titles then I'd change my tune. I only want him to be our next manager but I'll always question how good he actually is but i'm happy to be shown by him in red colours.
 
RooneyLegend said:
How would they be sitting on 5 CL's...they've managed to win 1 since he's left. He was already struggling in big games in his last season and that struggle has continued into his reign at Bayern despite taking over the single best club side at the time.
Click to expand...
What's your definition of struggling in the big games? Barca won the head to head against Real in the league in 11/12, beat Atletico in both league games, one draw and one win against Valencia and two wins against Malaga. That was the top five that season. They also won the cup without losing a single game including kicking Real out in the quarterfinal. They went out against Chelsea in the CL semifinal despite totally outplaying them, several times hitting the post and Messi missing a penalty. Do you blame that on Pep's tactics? Because that would be ridiculous. Barca lost the league because the players were clearly tired and they fecked up quite a few games against minnows while Real set a new record for points, totally dominating the smaller teams.

If that's struggling in the big games, then I'm a bit lost.
 
Balu said:
What's your definition of struggling in the big games? Barca won the head to head against Real in the league in 11/12, beat Atletico in both league games, one draw and one win against Valencia and two wins against Malaga. That was the top five that season. They also won the cup without losing a single game including kicking Real out in the quarterfinal. They went out against Chelsea in the CL semifinal despite totally outplaying them, several times hitting the post and Messi missing a penalty. Do you blame that on Pep's tactics? Because that would be ridiculous. Barca lost the league because the players were clearly tired and they fecked up quite a few games against minnows while Real set a new record for points, totally dominating the smaller teams.

If that's struggling in the big games, then I'm a bit lost.
Click to expand...

All true. Another point is that they really did get fecked over with injuries that season - Villa, Alexis and Pedro were injured or out of form pretty much the entire year.
 
Zeki Zico said:
Would Pep Guardiola already be considered the greatest manager in the history of the game if he had stayed at Barca? Pep decided to leave Barca in 2012 having won 14 major trophies during his time at the club.

So let's say Pep stayed and he matched what Barca won in terms of trophies , even though it's more likely he would of won more. So Pep wins another treble and let's say he's got 20 trophies to his name in just 8 years at Barca. Should he be considered the greatest ever?
Click to expand...
He's had an impressive trophy haul indeed, but super cups are not major trophies.
 
What's harder, finishing in the top 4 with Tottenham/Everton or winning the CL with Barca or Bayern?

Is it harder to finish in the top half of the Prem with Crystal Palace or win the league with Barca or Bayern?
 
redmeister said:
What's harder, finishing in the top 4 with Tottenham/Everton or winning the CL with Barca or Bayern?

Is it harder to finish in the top half of the Prem with Crystal Palace or win the league with Barca or Bayern?
Click to expand...

People under estimate how hard that Pep team was pushed by Madrid. They needed close to 100 points in almost every season to win the league. Only 3/4 points separated them each season. It would be similar to Mourinhos first Chelsea team going against The 08/09 United team, constantly for 3 seasons!
 
I want to see him build a side from the bottom first. If he can take City from rags to riches and buy Messi and sell schweinsteiger and sell muller and buy yaya toure to bayern and sell them gotze and make gotze another messi and dont forget he made costa world class.. ribery dies for pepe guardiola on that football grass
 
Last edited:
"The greatest manager in the history of the game" is a very loaded title. Do you expect a top tier manager to pick up a crap team just to prove himself? If you think like that, I'm afraid Pep's already way beyond being able to prove himself. Why would he pick up a crap team? He can literally join any club he likes. He doesn't need the money. He needs the tactical challenge, obviously. He won't find that challenge in any domestic league. It'll be found in the CL only. That leaves a very few select clubs that he might want to coach. I doubt he'll return to Barca for a while, at least until there's no player left who once was under him. Madrid is out of the question. He is already at Bayern. That leaves a few english clubs. Manchester United for its size and history, City apparently for personal connections. Liverpool is set for a while with Klopp, I still have no idea why anyone in their sane mind would go to Chelsea, so I'll ignore them. And Arsenal seems to slog along just fine with Wenger year after year.

But I'm digressing... my point is, he'll never give you "that proof". Nor should he. Nor can he. Great managers IMO are people like SAF, managers that stuck to their club for a long time and created an era named after them. And I don't see any manager coming close to the long term managers like SAF, possibly Rehagel at Bremen if I'm allowed to think small for a second... his Euro with the Greeks was a hell of a fluke, but it doesn't take away from the achievement, I think. I don't think this discussion should include Pep if you're talking absolutes and "greatest manager in the history of the game".

It's probably much more interesting to talk about "most influential manager in the history of the game", because his style of football definitely affected the whole game in Europe, across many clubs and many leagues...
 
RedStarUnited said:
People under estimate how hard that Pep team was pushed by Madrid. They needed close to 100 points in almost every season to win the league. Only 3/4 points separated them each season. It would be similar to Mourinhos first Chelsea team going against The 08/09 United team, constantly for 3 seasons!
Click to expand...

Mourinho used the fact he got 100 points with Madrid to demonstrate how La Liga wasn't competitive for the top 2 sides at the time. Let's face it, the season after Pep left, Barca had to contend with Tito's tragic illness and still got 100 points. No matter how many times things like this are pointed out to Peps fans, they wont accept that it's just very hard to tell if he's a decent manager or not, despite a very impressive CV. If he was such a great coach then logically Barca should have struggled that season, yet they got a points total beyond anything Pep achieved and did this with a head coach who was, for long periods, away from the job. No matter how you spin it, Barca's biggest margin of victory and biggest points total happened the season after Pep left and that has to be a real scratcher for those who think he adds so much value to a club that he can be considered among the best managers of all time.

After seeing how close Brendan Rodgers came to winning the Prem with just Luis Suarez, it amazes me why people still bother lauding these coaches. Win a European trophy with a club like Aberdeen and you are something special. Winning things with the Barca teams of the last decade really doesn't prove you are great manager. I'm not saying Pep isn't, but I'm not going to try and convince myself and others, as his fans try to, that he is. The evidence just isn't there to say either way.
 
Balu said:
What's your definition of struggling in the big games? Barca won the head to head against Real in the league in 11/12, beat Atletico in both league games, one draw and one win against Valencia and two wins against Malaga. That was the top five that season. They also won the cup without losing a single game including kicking Real out in the quarterfinal. They went out against Chelsea in the CL semifinal despite totally outplaying them, several times hitting the post and Messi missing a penalty. Do you blame that on Pep's tactics? Because that would be ridiculous. Barca lost the league because the players were clearly tired and they fecked up quite a few games against minnows while Real set a new record for points, totally dominating the smaller teams.

If that's struggling in the big games, then I'm a bit lost.
Click to expand...
This is pre Atletico being great days and those other teams regularly get rolled over by Barca. He managed to lose the most important matches(the CL semi matches, although I'll accept they should've won that) and the second la liga match at home which was of far more importance than winning the head to head tie as they had dragged themselves into the reckoning for the title. They also struggled to get through milan that year until they got those pens.
 
redmeister said:
What's harder, finishing in the top 4 with Tottenham/Everton or winning the CL with Barca or Bayern?

Is it harder to finish in the top half of the Prem with Crystal Palace or win the league with Barca or Bayern?
Click to expand...
Barca for both scenarios of course.
 
Subho611 said:
I don't agree. Unless Pep takes on a tougher assignment and takes them to the top, doubts will always remain about his pedigree. Till now he has always managed the strongest team in the league and managed multiple world class players and a GOAT player.

He may yet do this during the remaining part of his career. He is a great manager but needs to challenge himself more to be considered the best of all time.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, he's never taken on a really tough rebuild job or went through a cycle of renewal at a club. For me the hallmark of a great manager is one whose teams over achieve. Pep hasn't really done that
 
You must log in or register to reply here.