India

[Clique]

Seeing as we are ruining Mehro's thread about Pakistan, i think its time we have our own thread to talk about the various topics that rock our daily boat.

The topic of discussion very recently has been the Maharashtra Navnirman Sena (MNS).

A question i'd like to ask our resident members from the state of Maharastra. Why in good god's name is Raj Thackeray even supported, what has angered the good lads and lasses of Mumbai so much that they turn to the support of some party like the MNS which by all means is counter productive for them?. Marathi pride? Is Marathi pride really greater than the pride of being an Indian?

I saw an report by an news channel (CNN-IBN) which basically showed the double standards employed by the founding members of the MNS and the Shiv Sena. Apparently the children of the Thackerays go a well known English medium school which teaches Marathi only for 4 hours every week and that too only for 6 years. Isn't it a tad wrong to voice out and change every bloody sign in the land to Marathi and ask for every school to teach marathi and yet send your own kith and kin to a school which doesn't teach it very often?.

But that said, every language in this country is as important as the next. Fortunately or unfortunately we do have a national language and that's Hindi. Going out of your region means that you can only converse either in English or in Hindi. So for the growth of the country it is necessary to know these two languages. However, one cannot discount the importance of regional languages. So lads, would it be possible to have a nation wide formulae where you learn your primary education in English and have Hindi and the regional Language as your Second and third languages?. A burden on the child learning it no doubt. But the way i see it, its now become a necessity for the togetherness of the country.

P.S: Could some mod please get the pages with Indian discussion from the other thread and join them with this?

 

[Merman]

You don't decide what the Marathis want. If they think he is their best representative, they'll elect him. Much worse things have happened in the past, like BJP not getting re-elected in 2004. As for the language issue, Sanskrit should be the national language. It represents our tradition and history more so than Hindi and people speaking non-Hindi languages won't have as much problem with it.

 

[Clique]

You don't decide what the Marathis want. If they think he is their best representative, they'll elect him. Much worse things have happened in the past, like BJP not getting re-elected in 2004. As for the language issue, Sanskrit should be the national language. It represents our tradition and history more so than Hindi and people speaking non-Hindi languages won't have as much problem with it.

I'm not deciding what the Marathi's want Merman.

BJP not getting elected in 2004 much worse than the hooliganism that runs amuck with the MNS ?

The BJP couldn't have done any better than the Congress during the same time. The Oil price rise was not a issue only in our country but essentially the entire world. I have loads of time for Manmohan singh and i for one think he's made a better Prime Minister than Advani would ever have.

Hindi is the national language whether you like it or not. It is so because the bigger population in this country speak the language. If you want to talk in Sanskrit i suggest you sit nearby a purohit and converse with him. Why do you hold on to the past so much? Its for me a solution to the lingustic problems that we face in India. If i didn't know Telugu i couldn't move about in Hyderabad or its twin city Secundrabad. Thankfully i managed with the little telugu i know with bits and pieces of Hindi and English. Wouldn't it be better if the primary education of the entire country is in the same language such that i wouldn't have to be at strain to ask for a cup of water in different languages in a place thats not more than 45 minutes by flight?

 

[jatin]

You don't decide what the Marathis want. If they think he is their best representative, they'll elect him. Much worse things have happened in the past, like BJP not getting re-elected in 2004. As for the language issue, Sanskrit should be the national language. It represents our tradition and history more so than Hindi and people speaking non-Hindi languages won't have as much problem with it.

just like Clique doesn't decide what the Marathis want, you don't decide what should or should not be the National Language.

There already is a national language, and everyone should stick to it.

You can learn sanskrit if you want, but Learning Hindi is a must (i.e if you choose to go to school) , whether you choose to use it or not is up to you

 

[Clique]

just like Clique doesn't decide what the Marathis want, you don't decide what should or should not be the National Language.

There already is a national language, and everyone should stick to it.

You can learn sanskrit if you want, but Learning Hindi is a must (i.e if you choose to go to school) , whether you choose to use it or not is up to you

Thats what i harp on everytime i visit the current events forum. Yet people like merman (who unfortunately form a large percentage of this country) think that learning hindi is somehow a hindrance to their regional language.

Btw Happy Birthday man.

 

[Merman]

just like Clique doesn't decide what the Marathis want, you don't decide what should or should not be the National Language.

There already is a national language, and everyone should stick to it.

You can learn sanskrit if you want, but Learning Hindi is a must (i.e if you choose to go to school) , whether you choose to use it or not is up to you

You don't understand, it IS already a must. Hindi will never catch up in the southern states though, because our languages differ from Hindi too much and many south Indians are too proud about their tongue. We recently had a school attacked because the teachers humiliated two kids for speaking in their native tongue. I was only saying that making Sanskrit the national language reduces the resistance from certain communities that don't like Hindi.

 

[Clique]

You don't understand, it IS already a must. Hindi will never catch up in the southern states though, because our languages differ from Hindi too much and many south Indians are too proud about their tongue. We recently had a school attacked because the teachers humiliated two kids for speaking in their native tongue. I was only saying that making Sanskrit the national language reduces the resistance from certain communities that don't like Hindi.

You'd have communities protesting against Sanskrit because its associated with Hinduism too much for its own good.

Our languages differ very much this is true. But if we can learn English which is a different world to the language that we use commonly in our regions. Thats a lame excuse if ever there was one Merman.

Every person in every region is proud of their regional language not just us south Indians. I say bullcrap to regional divide and that we try to learn a language the majority of the population converse in. Would be beneficial to us merms. Where's the negative side to learning a new language?

 

[Merman]

You'd have communities protesting against Sanskrit because its associated with Hinduism too much for its own good.

Our languages differ very much this is true. But if we can learn English which is a different world to the language that we use commonly in our regions. Thats a lame excuse if ever there was one Merman.

Every person in every region is proud of their regional language not just us south Indians. I say bullcrap to regional divide and that we try to learn a language the majority of the population converse in. Would be beneficial to us merms. Where's the negative side to learning a new language?

Don't you understand? Everybody learns Hindi from second grade.

 

[zing]

just like Clique doesn't decide what the Marathis want, you don't decide what should or should not be the National Language.

There already is a national language, and everyone should stick to it.

You can learn sanskrit if you want, but Learning Hindi is a must (i.e if you choose to go to school) , whether you choose to use it or not is up to you

If the constitution chooses to recognize all languages of the individual states as being part of a set of national languages for our country, will you start learning all of them tomorrow?

 

[Merman]

You don't speak Hindi either Zing!?

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I know nothing about languages in India, but I feel a national langauge is important in creating a sense of national identity, if that is what you want. A good case in point would be the way the modern French language has come to be spoken in France. It was very much a minority language, but became almost universal, albeit with minor regional variations.

From wiki:

The French nation-state, which appeared after the 1789 French Revolution and Napoleon's empire, unified the French people in particular through the consolidation of the use of the French language. Hence, according to historian Eric Hobsbawm, "the French language has been essential to the concept of 'France', although in 1789 50% of the French people didn't speak it at all, and only 12 to 13% spoke it 'fairly' - in fact, even in oïl language zones, out of a central region, it wasn't usually spoken except in cities, and, even there, not always in the faubourgs [approximatively translatable to "suburbs"]. In the North as in the South of France, almost nobody spoke French.

 

[Clique]

Don't you understand? Everybody learns Hindi from second grade.

And yet we can't talk in the same language in any two states in south India to a commoner.

You're talking about the schools we in the major cities go to. I'm talking about the local schools run by the government. The lower class populous need to know the same language. They constitute the majority of our population.

I understand i may come across as a anti regional language something something here, but we cannot have status quo forever Merman. We need to grow and for that we need to have a language that we can communicate in for all purposes and reason. And by we i mean the population of India. Learning a regional language is well and good within the state but it becomes redundant the minute you enter the next state.

If it is being taught from the second class , then why do i still find it difficult to converse in Hindi to a Auto driver in Hyderabad?

If the constitution chooses to recognize all languages of the individual states as being part of a set of national languages for our country, will you start learning all of them tomorrow?

But we already have a national language and believe it or not we have only one national language Hindi.

For all purposes and means if it unites us as a country then why the fecking hell not man?. I'm not saying discourage tamil. Teach it by all means. But give more importance to the National Language.

 

[zing]

You don't speak Hindi either Zing!?

I'm from a Tamil-speaking family. I took Tamil till 10th standard and French in 11th and 12th. Hindi's not mandatory here, either.

I know nothing about languages in India, but I feel a national langauge is important in creating a sense of national identity, if that is what you want. A good case in point would be the way the modern French language has come to be spoken in France. It was very much a minority language, but became almost universal, albeit with minor regional variations.

From wiki:

Languages with official status in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at the number of different languages used varying by region. The states are deeply rooted in their languages as it is. Can you get all of them to learn one language? Compare the population of France back then and India now.. it's not practically feasible.

 

[Clique]

I know nothing about languages in India, but I feel a national langauge is important in creating a sense of national identity, if that is what you want. A good case in point would be the way the modern French language has come to be spoken in France. It was very much a minority language, but became almost universal, albeit with minor regional variations.

From wiki:

The problem here is that we have huge number of states and most states have their own language. Each of these languages are in now way related to the other. Thus you'd face lingustic problems when you cross from one state to another.

Now thats the language problem in India very shortly.

And i accept the point made and thats what i'm trying to tell merman here.

 

[zing]

But we already have a national language and believe it or not we have only one national language Hindi.

For all purposes and means if it unites us as a country then why the fecking hell not man?. I'm not saying discourage tamil. Teach it by all means. But give more importance to the National Language.

I see your point but what I'm saying is that it's not practical any longer considering the population and history of each state.

 

[Clique]

I'm from a Tamil-speaking family. I took Tamil till 10th standard and French in 11th and 12th. Hindi's not mandatory here, either.

I took Hindi and Tamil for my first five years in school. Decided it was too tough and took French from then on.

 

[Clique]

I see your point but what I'm saying is that it's not practical any longer considering the population and history of each state.

Oh it very much is. Of only the old fecker in our state didn't start the Anti Hindi agitation of the 1960's Hindi would have been compulsory in all govt. institutions.

If the poor of the region learn Hindi we are well on our way to a unified language. Its still possible if the central government risks the flak of the regional parties and goes through and says there should be single educational system and in this system Hindi is a must.

An idealistic approach. I've heard murmers of Kapil Sibal promoting such an idea.

We'll have to wait and see.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Would the teachers in the regions that don't speak native Hindi be able to teach in it though?

 

[Plechazunga]

Look at the number of different languages used varying by region. The states are deeply rooted in their languages as it is. Can you get all of them to learn one language? Compare the population of France back then and India now.. it's not practically feasible.

Well you can, in the sense that most of the people you meet in India, outside of the deepest countryside, will speak at least a bit of either Hindi or Urdu or English, as well as their own language.

 

[Clique]

Would the teachers in the regions that don't speak native Hindi be able to teach in it though?

The curriculum in each region for the poor is in that regional language. You'll have to understand that India is a very very big country, hence each region has very developed regional languages. So much so that the only language they speak is their regional language.

You only get people who converse in English in the metros of each state. The Chennai's, The Hyderabads, The Bangalore's. etc etc.

Its quite different to the way it is in a country like England where the entire population speaks the same language though the pronunciation varies, the language remains the same.

 

[Spoony]

Plech, sounds like you've been all over India. Do most people on the outskirts of Vanarasi speak a touch of Hindi?

well?

 

[Clique]

Well you can, in the sense that most of the people you meet in India, outside of the deepest countryside, will speak at least a bit of either Hindi or Urdu English, as well as their own language.

Not true. Infact i'd wager that the people who know English and their regional language will be more than the people who know Hindi + their regional language.

Even in metro's the populous are more inclined to learn English than Hindi. This is because they plan to venture abroad when they finish their under graduation and learning English would be more beneficial to them than learning Hindi.

 

[Plechazunga]

Plech, sounds like you've been all over India. Do most people on the outskirts of Vanarasi speak a touch of Hindi?

well?

I haven't really, I've not been up in the north at all... still, that's no reason not to wade in with some massive, ill-founded generalisations.

Not true. Infact i'd wager that the people who know English and their regional language will be more than the people who know Hindi + their regional language.

Even in metro's the populous are more inclined to learn English than Hindi. This is because they plan to venture abroad when they finish their under graduation and learning English would be more beneficial to them than learning Hindi.

Sorry I missed an 'or'. I meant either Hindi or Urdu or English, or some combination of them. I wasn't commenting on the proportions.

 

[crappycraperson]

Plech, sounds like you've been all over India. Do most people on the outskirts of Vanarasi speak a touch of Hindi?

well?

People from outskirts of Varanisi speak a variation of Bhojpuri which is a dialect of Hindi..

 

[jatin]

Btw Happy Birthday man.

Thank you

 

[jatin]

If the constitution chooses to recognize all languages of the individual states as being part of a set of national languages for our country, will you start learning all of them tomorrow?

if the world ends, and if you aunt was your uncle, and if you had a brain, if you would start talking sense,


if if if if if if

 

[jatin]

I see your point but what I'm saying is that it's not practical any longer considering the population and history of each state.

it is practical in every sense

the schools need to teach hindi period, if the students go to school they will learn hindi and whichever other language the school choses to teach, simple really

 

[Interval]

it is practical in every sense

the schools need to teach hindi period, if the students go to school they will learn hindi and whichever other language the school choses to teach, simple really

Not true. What I don't understand is you berating regional parties for enforcing their language whereas you yourself are forcing education of a particular kind on people. Hindi is the national language but not by popular choice. When India became one country, lots of parts were not Hindi speaking. Why should you force something down peoples throats?

Its all a matter of choice. I'm from Bombay and I never learnt Hindo nor Marathi in school. I was given a choice between 3-4 languages as a 2nd leanguage and I chose the one I wanted.

 

[zing]

it is practical in every sense

the schools need to teach hindi period, if the students go to school they will learn hindi and whichever other language the school choses to teach, simple really

I'll choose to ignore your imbecilic post prior to this one.

A vast number of the population go to government schools where they have no interest in learning a different language other than the local one. English is taught to them now and barely a few of them can string more than a couple of words together, including the ones that finish school.

 

[jatin]

Not true. What I don't understand is you berating regional parties for enforcing their language whereas you yourself are forcing education of a particular kind on people. Hindi is the national language but not by popular choice. When India became one country, lots of parts were not Hindi speaking. Why should you force something down peoples throats?

Its all a matter of choice. I'm from Bombay and I never learnt Hindo nor Marathi in school. I was given a choice between 3-4 languages as a 2nd leanguage and I chose the one I wanted.

first of all India never became one country out of many countries, in fact it was divided from one big country to a smaller one

and I am not enforcing anything on any one, Hindi is already set as a national language, so therefore you must learn it above your regional language if you are a part of this country, talking about forcing something down people's throats

the same can be said about regional languages as well

for example a local language has several dialects as well

in maharashtra alone, people along the coast speak konkani which is slightly different from marathi, so according to your post, why are you forcing marathi down their throats when in fact they speak konkani ????

 

[jatin]

I'll choose to ignore your imbecilic post prior to this one.

A vast number of the population go to government schools where they have no interest in learning a different language other than the local one. English is taught to them now and barely a few of them can string more than a couple of words together, including the ones that finish school.

most of the school kids would have no interest in becoming Engineers or scientists, so why does the school force them to learn science, physics, chemistry, biology????

 

[Interval]

first of all India never became one country out of many countries, in fact it was divided from one big country to a smaller one

and I am not enforcing anything on any one, Hindi is already set as a national language, so therefore you must learn it above your regional language if you are a part of this country, talking about forcing something down people's throats

the same can be said about regional languages as well

for example a local language has several dialects as well

in maharashtra alone, people along the coast speak konkani which is slightly different from marathi, so according to your post, why are you forcing marathi down their throats when in fact they speak konkani ????

1. India actually had many princely states where Hindi wasn't a predominant language which were then brought under the Indian charter after independence. Hindi is the national language though it isn't the spoken at all by a huge chunk of people. India is not like France or Germany wherein one common language prevails over other dialects. Hindi was never as widely spoken.
2. My point is niether for regional languages nor for Hindi. I'm pro choice.
3. Konkani people can speak Konkani if they want. They should even have the right to learn it over Marathi AND over Hindi.

People in our country need to understand the concept of freedom of choice. No language, may it be Hindi, Regional or English can be or should be made compulsory.

 

[crappycraperson]

You don't decide what the Marathis want. If they think he is their best representative, they'll elect him. Much worse things have happened in the past, like BJP not getting re-elected in 2004. As for the language issue, Sanskrit should be the national language. It represents our tradition and history more so than Hindi and people speaking non-Hindi languages won't have as much problem with it.

Marathis do not get to decide everything for themselves. We are a central system not a federal one. The one thing Nehru did right in his life. National language also has to be practical. Majority of the country speaks Hindi now anyway and loads in cities like Hyderabad and Banglore have started to. Not a big ask to get everyone who go to school to learn Hindi as another language.

 

[jatin]

1. India actually had many princely states where Hindi wasn't a predominant language which were then brought under the Indian charter after independence. Hindi is the national language though it isn't the spoken at all by a huge chunk of people. India is not like France or Germany wherein one common language prevails over other dialects. Hindi was never as widely spoken.
2. My point is niether for regional languages nor for Hindi. I'm pro choice.
3. Konkani people can speak Konkani if they want. They should even have the right to learn it over Marathi AND over Hindi.

People in our country need to understand the concept of freedom of choice. No language, may it be Hindi, Regional or English can be or should be made compulsory.

Pro choice I see

hundreds of kids might be hating mathematics, physics, chemistry,history,geography etc etc

why not give them the choice to choose what they learn in school as well

why not give them a choice if they want to play sports all day or actually sit in class

why not give them a choice to pay fees or not for education (or the lack of it)

 

[crappycraperson]

1. India actually had many princely states where Hindi wasn't a predominant language which were then brought under the Indian charter after independence. Hindi is the national language though it isn't the spoken at all by a huge chunk of people. India is not like France or Germany wherein one common language prevails over other dialects. Hindi was never as widely spoken.
2. My point is niether for regional languages nor for Hindi. I'm pro choice.
3. Konkani people can speak Konkani if they want. They should even have the right to learn it over Marathi AND over Hindi.

People in our country need to understand the concept of freedom of choice. No language, may it be Hindi, Regional or English can be or should be made compulsory.

But where does this freedom of choice extends to? Should different regions also have the choice to recede from the union and start their own nation?

And almost all of Northern India now speaks Hindi or a variation of it. In places like Rajisthan, Gujrat they have their own regional language but they learn and speak Hindi as well.

I don't think Hindi should be enforced over the regional languages. But it should be there as a second or third language. I said in another thread that we need some common thread between different states, language can be just one such thread.

 

[crappycraperson]

I know nothing about languages in India, but I feel a national langauge is important in creating a sense of national identity, if that is what you want. A good case in point would be the way the modern French language has come to be spoken in France. It was very much a minority language, but became almost universal, albeit with minor regional variations.

From wiki:

Spot on. People here do not seem to fathom how dangerous is the rise of regionalism in India.

 

[vikram10]

I grew up in Hyd for the most part and speak all three languages even though I was only taught Telugu and English as languages.

Quite surprised by the one comment about people in Hyd/Secbad unable to speak Hindi. As far as I can tell, almost all the natives speak it. It may not be the proper stuff spoke up north, and has quite a bit of Urdu it, but still. Although there's been a lot of migration to the twin cities the last 10-15 yrs so it is quite possible that those who've come recently can't speak it that well.

But generally speaking, I'd imagine there has to be an incentive (mostly economic for a country like ours) for any parent to want to send their kids to a school that focuses heavily on teaching Hindi. To be honest, these days, I don't think there that many schools or even parents that really care how kids perform in Hindi or Telugu in an academic sense. The cities and mid-level towns have a lot of English medium schools that are preferred by most people moving up the economic ladder.

Now, if the issue is of regionalism/nationalism and whether language can serve as a unifier; I've no idea really. I just think if Hindi is made compulsory all over the country it may just lead to a waste of money because people just won't be arsed. I do think since a lot of people watch Hindi movies, the cheaper option might just be to ask the idiots in that industry to forget the Hinglish crap that has taken over as a sign of coolness/modernity/etc.

 

[crappycraperson]

I'm from a Tamil-speaking family. I took Tamil till 10th standard and French in 11th and 12th. Hindi's not mandatory here, either.





Languages with official status in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Look at the number of different languages used varying by region. The states are deeply rooted in their languages as it is. Can you get all of them to learn one language? Compare the population of France back then and India now.. it's not practically feasible.

No one is talking about getting rid of any languages. Learning Hindi does not mean you have to adopt it as your mother tongue.

 

[crappycraperson]

I grew up in Hyd for the most part and speak all three languages even though I was only taught Telugu and English as languages.

Quite surprised by the one comment about people in Hyd/Secbad unable to speak Hindi. As far as I can tell, almost all the natives speak it. It may not be the proper stuff spoke up north, and has quite a bit of Urdu it, but still. Although there's been a lot of migration to the twin cities the last 10-15 yrs so it is quite possible that those who've come recently can't speak it that well.

But generally speaking, I'd imagine there has to be an incentive (mostly economic for a country like ours) for any parent to want to send their kids to a school that focuses heavily on teaching Hindi. To be honest, these days, I don't think there that many schools or even parents that really care how kids perform in Hindi or Telugu in an academic sense. The cities and mid-level towns have a lot of English medium schools that are preferred by most people moving up the economic ladder.

Now, if the issue is of regionalism/nationalism and whether language can serve as a unifier; I've no idea really. I just think if Hindi is made compulsory all over the country it may just lead to a waste of money because people just won't be arsed. I do think since a lot of people watch Hindi movies, the cheaper option might just be to ask the idiots in that industry to forget the Hinglish crap that has taken over as a sign of coolness/modernity/etc.

Yeah, I have noticed that many people from Andhra and Karnataka can speak in Hindi. It is only really the Tamil folk who outright refuse to learn it.

 

[vikram10]

That was my sense as well. THe couple of times I've been to Madras, I had to really force myself not to blurt out any Hindi if I was struggling to converse in a mish mash of English/Telugu. Not for any particular reason other than always knowing that folks down there had a problem with the language and best thing to do was not to invite unwanted attention.