Each state can stick its own language, But everybody must be forced to learn English. It is medium of communication with the world and the rest of the states. As long as everyone is well versed with english, they could speak whatever the feck they want in their own state.
India
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Not sure about force. To me, the status quo is fine. If there's an incentive, and usually a harmless one, don't think favoring speaking of a particular language has any real ills. People generally find ways to learn new languages if it's in their interest either in schools or by occupation.
How this develops going forward is I think the issue at hand - some like the politicians abusing the fella who took his oath in Hindi, others wanting to ban ENglish from state schools (in MP I think it was), etc. don't have any real purpose other than creating a divisionary talking point, stoking merits of regionalism, etc. Whether it's that big a deal that requries new legislation, I'm not sure.
The way things are going, it appears that more and more people are learning English or bits of it through all kinds of means (mentioned Hindi movies as one) and may end up, down the line, settling for it as the means to communicate with people from out of state.
How this develops going forward is I think the issue at hand - some like the politicians abusing the fella who took his oath in Hindi, others wanting to ban ENglish from state schools (in MP I think it was), etc. don't have any real purpose other than creating a divisionary talking point, stoking merits of regionalism, etc. Whether it's that big a deal that requries new legislation, I'm not sure.
The way things are going, it appears that more and more people are learning English or bits of it through all kinds of means (mentioned Hindi movies as one) and may end up, down the line, settling for it as the means to communicate with people from out of state.
When it comes to a secondary level, alot of boards in India do provide that choice.
But the issue here isn't making subjects choice based. The issue here is makng language they study choice based.
Its a proven study model that a student must learn Science, Maths, Social Studies and 2 languages. Now it is what 2 kanguages they should learn that is up for choice.
When you were enrolled into school, your parents made a choice whether to enroll you into an English Medium school or a Marathi/Hindi/Gujarati medium school.
Same thing
Why does anything to do with choice have to taken in the most extreme way?
That is just a bad point. Since when has coice in studies being equivalent to ceding from the union. Its like me comparing forcing of hindi to being dictatorial.
We need to seriously understand the make up of India as a nation. India has never been united by a particular language. Our national integration programmes don't focus on language because, well, one language was never prevelant here. There are loads of other issues which have helpen in creating the national identitly- Freedom Fight, Kashmir etc.
Take of India as the EU. Lots of small states with varying languages, cultures all brought together. The reason why I am saying this is because there are states, regions in this country where Hindi was never learnt and taught and still isn't. And its not a part of their culture/lifestyle. Its unfair to tell them to start learning Hindi because its is earmarked the National Language. Its like making Hockey compulsory.
Lastly, I have never studied niether Hindi nor Marathi at any level. Yet my conversational skills in both are good. The spoken language will not die out in any case.
Thats the SP led my Mulayam singh Yadav. They think English should be banned from schools. they also want to ban computers. "5 men's work can be done by computers. So we'll ban computers and let 5 men be emplyed instead." Freaks.
tbh, i see where they're coming from, with the computers comment, but like you, I think its absurd.
Is there a form of language snobbery present in some parts of India? We stayed at a guest house in Fort Cochin. The owner spoke Malayalam as well as English and Hindi, but he did not like using the latter and always addressed his Hindi-speaking guests in English.
Its not exactly snobbery. But yes, in the southern states, English and regional languages form the basis of studying. Their Hindi isn't too good and are very attached to their regional language. These states have never really accepted Hindi as a national language
So, say, would Tamil Nadu fall into this definition?
Definitely
Thanks for that. I've travelled all over India and I love it in many ways more than I love my home country. As an outsider, the more subtle regional differences are not immediately obvious to me. I've met those who dismiss those differences as trifling and contend that India is very much a united republic. I've met others whose regional pride surpasses their national pride.
It is not just about studies.
India and EU are not comparable at all. For French,Spanish, German, English etc. it is their country first before any other in EU. If the same was to become true for India, then we will all be fecked.
Loads of educated people in southern part, who do not have chip on their shoulder, have learned Hindi to integrate better with the rest of the country. I know plenty of people from Andhra and Karnataka who speak very good Hindi. Even here in Italy, right now there is only a Tamil guy in our Indian group who does not speak Hindi, everyone else from West, South, East or North can speak and understand.
It is not about forcing someone to learn a sport. Right now, we are heading towards the direction of English becoming a common language for whole of India. Surely, having a local language is better to integrate the country than a foreign one? And it is perfectly logical to choose that to be Hindi given it is the choice of majority of the country.
More-so than other states. Other states really don't mind hindi, most of them don't know it because they never really get to use it.
It is stupid to compare us to the Union. We are unique and we should remain so.
India is very weird in that sense. They don't really like each other when it comes to alot of issues due to the vast differense in cultural upbringing. But then again we're all Indians and would not have in any other way.
I have been travelling the interiors of this country for many years since I enjoy it. The things that I have seen in people from Rajasthan, Karnataka, or maybe even Orissa are so different, yet on some level so common.
You are twisting my EU example to the extreme. I said linguism in this country was like the EU.
So finally it all comes down to saying that people who don't know the national language have a "chip on their shoulder." You sound like any other regional language forcing party.
You do realise, and I will re-iterate this, unlike other nations our nation wasn't formed on basis of a uniting language. Learning or speaking Hindi isn't a part of the culture in various regions. You say that Hindi is a method of creating an identity. I say, use other methods because this method will never work and never has.
Also, I mentioned that learning Hindi, compulsory at school level is not the only way to popularise spoken Hindi. Hindi is widely spoken even though its not taught at school level. Spoken is different from school learnt. People from south, north east and even parts of west india all can speak good hindi without having learnt it at school
Lastly, I agree that we're moving towards English becoming a common language. But whats wrong in that? States from the south and the north east have always been more comfortable with English than Hindi. In fact you'll find intergrating English much easier than Hindi. Just because Hindi has been declared the national language doesn't make it the correct choice of common language.
This thing is about choice. Yes, we make certain things compulsory to boost national integration. But again, I will repeat, past attempts into this have led to failure and always will because unlike other countries we DON"T COME FROM A COMMON CULTURAL BACKGROUND. Until the British took over, we were never 1 country.
Now thats just BS
did you start learning ABCD at secondary level????
english and hindi is the first thing taught in school
and since when did kids in junior school have the ability to actually make a choice for themselves??
and you said it is about choice, so why are you restricting choice only to language? double standards?
Proven model my ass, I went to an english medium school and they taught me hindi and english from the beginning and by the way I was also taught sanskrit from like 3rd or 4th standard onwards. and all of it was compulsary
it is a bad point only in your opinion, infact he is absolutely right
you have to have a system, if you leave everything to choice, then some people might choose to have a career in Crime (its their choice right), so will you start having classes on how to become a Mafia Don or something
crappys point is that it is must to have a model/system
and there is nothing wrong with that, infact every school has a model
the problem being they have a model of their own, there is no control over it
it would be a lot easier if everybody followed a model which has atleast 1 or 2 common roots
and just because you think it is not the correct choice of common language, it is true???
Most of the country knows Hindi and has no problems with it, now just because one or 2 states have an issue with it, doesn't mean Hindi is not the correct choice, it was made the National Language for a reason, and you or I or any state even has no right in deciding if that was a correct choice or not
Now as I said if the state doesn't want to use Hindi in their day to day lives or in their assembly sessions, then thats fine, its their choice and we respect that,
but they need to respect the national language and at least acknowledge it if not use it, if we are fine with them choosing their regional language, why is it not fine with them, if we choose to speak in Hindi in their state or any other place we choose to visit
I"M NOT AGREEING WITH THE REGIONAL PARTIES EITHER. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that they should not be pulled up or that they're right. All i'm saying is exactly what you're saying, ie the highlighted part.
The only protest I had over what you and crappy were saying was that I believe that the language taught should be of choice to the person it is being taught to. I believe in freedom of choice. Obviously you don't.
Alot of boards give you a choice to drop science/math etc at the secondary level.
Proven model, your ass? Good arguement. you abuse me and yet you go on and say you were taught science, maths, and 2 languages. EXACTLY WHAT I WAS SAYING. And I went to School and didn't have to compulsorily take Hindi. I can converse fluently in Hindi and noone can question my sense of country.
And FFS you're diverting the whole goddamn issue. I believe that the choice of language to study should be a personal choice and not decided by state. Our constitution supports that idea.
And yes obviously, allowing people to select what languages they want to learn=A state asking to cede. Seriously?
I understand a model or a system, but why make anything compulsory?
But EU is not one country, so I have no idea why used them at all.
I did not say people who do not know Hindi have a chip on their shoulder. But many outright refuse to learn because of some weird paranoia do, mostly Tamils in fact. I really do not understand what the big deal is about having Hindi as a compulsory langauge till 10the standard at least for everyone in India. I know that a lot of people who study a language in school , do not necessarily become fluent in it. But it does give them a very good platform in case they need to use it later in life.
I DO have a problem with English being the integrating language for India than a native one. Given how many native languages we have, it is shameful that two Indians have to use a foreign language to communicate. If it was practical, I would have no problem in Tamil being made the national language and compulsory in schools all over India. But percentage of people speaking Tamil or any other regional language in India is not comparable to Hindi.
We do share a common background in many ways. For a start the religion, just like North, even in South many discriminate in terms of castes, same scripts for languages etc etc.
and that exactly what I am telling you not everything can be freedom of choice
for example, my freedom of choice tells me I want to nuke you head
but the govt and cops deem that incorrect, should I argue why? why its my freedom of choice right
if everything was down to freedom of choice, then I am sure, the whole country would choose not to pay taxes, they would choose not to obey traffic signals etc etc
everything cannot be freedom of choice, and the national language is one of them
simple
I absolutely agree with you. You feel English shouldn't be a uniting language. I see no problems. But apart from that I agree with most you've said. I can agree to disagree on that.
Why I used the EU example and why you feel people aren't ready to use Hindi despite it being a national language answers itself. All of this has to do with the history of India. Unlike most countries, ours is more EU based is because before the British took over, we weren't one country. After the British took over and we achieved Independence, there were still alot of rpincely states. The culture, background, people lifestyles and the beliefs and lifestyles were totally different in all of these different areas of India. Its solely the fight of Independence which united us. Hence our nation cannot be compared to a uniform country.
Now, since we have been independent and under one union, these cultural differences show in various national codes. For a Tamilian or a Maharashtrian whose uptil a 100 years back weren't using Hindi are now being told that since its your national language, learn it. That doesn't go down well. Its intrinsic human nature to form territories and this is nothing but that.
While I agree that we have to act into uniting the nation, I feel forcing a uniform language is causing more troubles than a solution.
With furthur progress and a couple of hundred years, people will shed the regional cgharacteristic for a national one.
But its an evolutionary process rather than an immidiate one.
Very good example will be the difficulties the USA had in uniting its territories. Its just that they are a much older nation than us and hence furthur ahead in the integration process
You're taking freedom of choice to a whole new extreme level. Fundamental rights state that I can learn or do whatever I want as long as I am under legal code and I'm not using it to harm others or the nation.
In our country particularly, where freedom of anything is eaten up under different guises, it is an important step to empower the people with as many choices as we can.
While I understand where you're coming from but you also need to understand what people who don't use Hindi have to say. While you berate regional parties for forcing their language, you yourself are forcing Hindi under the pretex that it is a national language.
Isn't it just easier and better for all if people are given freedom to choose what language they want to learn and instead look for other avenues for national integration and uniformity. Because as I explained before, the growth of India as a nation will make it very difficult for people to shed the regional nuances soon
Forget the EU then. Even in countries like France and Spain, there are people from different "regions" just like India. There exists 3-4 different separatist movements in these countries, famous ones being for Basque and Catalunya. Such regional difference will always exist in all countries. In India, it is more due to the number of states.
It is irrelevant how it was before independence now. Now the prime concern is to keep the union together.
And loads of Maharashtrians can speak Hindi, they did make the effort to learn it alongside their mother tongue. It is only recently that these thugs raised this issue and many illetrate people have again fallen for this kind of gutter politics just like caste based and religion based on. As I said, it is only really the Tamils who outright refuse to learn Hindi whatsoever. Otherwise percentage of people speaking Hindi in southern state has steadily increased since the independence.
From what I know of history of USA (admittedly little), they took several extreme steps to make the sure that the union did not break..civil war being the obvious one. Making learning of national language compulsory in schools can not even be classified as an extreme step.
What you do not seem to understand is that no body is replacing the regional language with Hindi. That is something that can not be forced. There are people who refuse to learn Hindi because they have problem with another language chose their owns as national one. These are the ones I referred to as having a chip on their shoulder.
A bigger problem with our country is population, how the feck are we going to control that ?
Long Term economic growth is slowed by population, there is no land and resources to support this many people.
Long Term economic growth is slowed by population, there is no land and resources to support this many people.
erm whats going on here?
there is nothing to force
it already is the official national language
live with it
that is what I am trying to tell you,
as i said, if you don't want to speak in Hindi that is upto you, but when you see that in Tamil Nadu you are actually frowned upon when you speak in Hindi, that is a BIG feckING PROBLEM
if you don't want to speak it is fine, but like it or not, it is the NATIONAL language, so you need to respect it, period
I think I mentioned this before and I'll mention it again. I give a sod all for all regional languages. Don't care if people drop all languages and start speaking Swahili. All I'm trying to say is that people should be given a choice what languages to learn in school. I'm not for making any particular language compulsory. I also gave you our history to explain why people are so hesitant to accept Hindi. But you also need to understand spoken Hindi is different from learnt. Maharashtrians don't partucularly learn Hindi. They just know how to speak it.
Nobody is disrespecting it by refusing to learn it in school. And I explained the reaons of why its frowned upon. Its simply the cultural makeup of the country. Lastly, Speaking it is not the same as learning it in school. Alot of regions' population speak Hindi without learning it in school.
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Our population isn't actually rocketing like it did in the 50's. But you are right we cannot sustain our current population and if it continues to increase then prices for everything will continue to rise.
Every state have their own share of lunatics...Andhra even today has factions that stick to their own law, Reddy's and Kappas pulling the strings, violence and family animosity carried over decades with country bombs along with naxal problems.Even the central or the state government cannot do much about that as all these factionist are there in every other political party and make it to the cabinet in one way or the other.
Karnataka becomes a chota pakistan, whenever internal violence breaks out...many a time even the Supreme court have pulled out their CM's for not bothering to implement their orders and continuing to bicker with neighbhouring states, yet their shamelessely carry on their shennaigans.
In Kerela communism, sexual exploitation, conversion to Christianity etc are the biggest problem for decades. Marati's, Bengalis and Tamil's are cnuts stained to the core have their state pride higher than the national one.
Dont think making Tamil, Mallus or Bengalis all converse in Hindi can be of any help. The popularity of Hindi through out country especially in some south and far eastern states is due to many reasons, the prime being unemployment problem that broke in the 60's and 70's. As for people living in the eastern states, they need to travel either to Delhi or Bombay to find a decent job and it became a part of their curriculum to improve their spoken Hindi. As for Tamils, they normally dont look upon at some northern state or any other state in India as their first choice, the nearest state they can find better way of living are Singapore and Malaysia with all their friends and relatives settling there..
Karnataka becomes a chota pakistan, whenever internal violence breaks out...many a time even the Supreme court have pulled out their CM's for not bothering to implement their orders and continuing to bicker with neighbhouring states, yet their shamelessely carry on their shennaigans.
In Kerela communism, sexual exploitation, conversion to Christianity etc are the biggest problem for decades. Marati's, Bengalis and Tamil's are cnuts stained to the core have their state pride higher than the national one.
Dont think making Tamil, Mallus or Bengalis all converse in Hindi can be of any help. The popularity of Hindi through out country especially in some south and far eastern states is due to many reasons, the prime being unemployment problem that broke in the 60's and 70's. As for people living in the eastern states, they need to travel either to Delhi or Bombay to find a decent job and it became a part of their curriculum to improve their spoken Hindi. As for Tamils, they normally dont look upon at some northern state or any other state in India as their first choice, the nearest state they can find better way of living are Singapore and Malaysia with all their friends and relatives settling there..
The Taurean from the newbs has his view
I don't think my brain could handle 5 languages.
Someone mentioned upthread about teh diversity of languages being a good thing. Being an outsider looking in, I think it's more a double edged sword than anything. Yes, it provides for multiculturalism, but it also has the ability to act as a platform for division, which may be driven by, but not necessarily limited to language.
The cultural sovereignty of the different people ( i.e. those who speak Hindi, Punjab, Tamil etc etc) represents an almighty stumbling block in Indian politics which must be adressed. Mind, it's not made easier by Western interests and globalisation as a whole, but thats probably a different debate.
Someone mentioned upthread about teh diversity of languages being a good thing. Being an outsider looking in, I think it's more a double edged sword than anything. Yes, it provides for multiculturalism, but it also has the ability to act as a platform for division, which may be driven by, but not necessarily limited to language.
The cultural sovereignty of the different people ( i.e. those who speak Hindi, Punjab, Tamil etc etc) represents an almighty stumbling block in Indian politics which must be adressed. Mind, it's not made easier by Western interests and globalisation as a whole, but thats probably a different debate.
well they are, its your official national language and you are refusing to learn it and hence acknowledge it, if thats not disrespectful then what is, calling a tamil fellow a telugu ?
also just because you have a reason on why it is frowned upon does not justify the fact that it is frowned upon, so reason or no reason it is wrong
thats exactly why we need Unity in Diversity, and the reason that a national language exists
Forcing a language only justifies their concerns that they're being treated as secondary citizens.
Which is something that needs to be adressed, unless you get another situation like Bangladesh and Pakistan.
So essentially he found my comments absurd.
I can live with that. I'm of the opinion that learning it in Schools shouyld be a matter of choice rather than anything. Its not like spoken Hindi will suffer if it is not taught.
But I guess we can draw a line here and move on to another topic.
How about the criminlisation of politics and how to take steps to effectively remove people with serious crimes out of Parliament and Vidhan Sabha?
Official Language is Sansrit.
National Language is Hindi
Just for jokes.
You're right about that. But I also have said that acceptance comes as a part of evolutionary cycle. Else it will be treated just like Merman just said.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Jatin. I've always maintained that I can see where you're coming from and really feel you should do try and understand the same for me.
Should we move on?
Ridiculous.
Yeah people will become second class citizens if they have to learn another language in school. People can not seem to get it through thick heads that no body is trying to replace a regional language with Hindi.
Fair enough
I do try and understand where you are coming from, but all I am trying to clarify is that certain things in life need to be forced upon you, like your parents forced you to go to school get and education, get good grades, be a nice human being, don't do drugs etc etc
that was all for your personal development and well being, so I don't see anything wrong if we try something similar for the Country's development and well being
but alls well, we shall agree to disagree, cheers
There is nothing to force in something which is Constitutionally the National Language,
News Flash, it has been the National Language since a long long time now, this didn't happen yesterday, so there is nothing forceful in learning what is your country's official language, if anything you are forcefully trying to outcast yourself by denying what your Countries Constitution has accepted as their National language
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