India

[crappycraperson]

I think I mentioned this before and I'll mention it again. I give a sod all for all regional languages. Don't care if people drop all languages and start speaking Swahili. All I'm trying to say is that people should be given a choice what languages to learn in school. I'm not for making any particular language compulsory. I also gave you our history to explain why people are so hesitant to accept Hindi. But you also need to understand spoken Hindi is different from learnt. Maharashtrians don't partucularly learn Hindi. They just know how to speak it.
.

People already do not have the choice to drop Maths. Science, Social studies, History etc. before 10th standard. Adding another subject to that is not a big deal at all.

And I already told you, in other states than Tamil Nadu, people do not have an issue with speaking or learning Hindi. Even during time of independence, it was a Tamil movement to stop Hindi from becoming a national language.

 

[jatin]

So essentially he found my comments absurd.

I can live with that. I'm of the opinion that learning it in Schools shouyld be a matter of choice rather than anything. Its not like spoken Hindi will suffer if it is not taught.

But I guess we can draw a line here and move on to another topic.

How about the criminlisation of politics and how to take steps to effectively remove people with serious crimes out of Parliament and Vidhan Sabha?

Now this can only be done, if some people in Power actually think about progress rather than trying to appease members to gain a majority

 

[crappycraperson]

The Taurean from the newbs has his view

Most people I have met from Karnataka have no problem in learning Hindi. In fact all of them.

 

[Interval]

People already do not have the choice to drop Maths. Science, Social studies, History etc. before 10th standard. Adding another subject to that is not a big deal at all.

And I already told you, in other states than Tamil Nadu, people do not have an issue with speaking or learning Hindi. Even during time of independence, it was a Tamil movement to stop Hindi from becoming a national language.

Fair enough. I guess, i'm just more pro choice as compared to you wrt this. Maybe because I never learnt Hindi and still don't see the need to learn it at School level.

Cheers, crappy! Good to know that we can use this forum for alot more than just footballing issues.

On another note, does the Left Party annoy you'll as much as it does me?

 

[crappycraperson]

Fair enough. I guess, i'm just more pro choice as compared to you wrt this. Maybe because I never learnt Hindi and still don't see the need to learn it at School level.

Cheers, crappy! Good to know that we can use this forum for alot more than just footballing issues.

On another note, does the Left Party annoy you'll as much as it does me?

Yeah. I would vote for Lalu before voting for any of their candidate. How they acted during the Indo-US deal was a farce.

 

[Interval]

Now this can only be done, if some people in Power actually think about progress rather than trying to appease members to gain a majority

Its really a screwed up sitaution. I was reading about the Man Utd sharma case and its clear as ice that he was allowed bail because he has connections.
All the parties in this country have elected members who have many cases pending on them which include murder, rape etc. Its shocking

 

[Interval]

Yeah. I would vote for Lalu before voting for any of their candidate. How they acted during the Indo-US deal was a farce.

Not only the Indo-US deal, but also their refusal to allow certain sectors to be opened up for foreign investment. Their fracas when the petrol prices were hiked. Jeez, those people are stuck in the past.

 

[Merman]

Yeah. I would vote for Lalu before voting for any of their candidate. How they acted during the Indo-US deal was a farce.

The behaviour of the commies during the Sino-Indian war was even more disgraceful.

 

[jatin]

Its really a screwed up sitaution. I was reading about the Man Utd sharma case and its clear as ice that he was allowed bail because he has connections.
All the parties in this country have elected members who have many cases pending on them which include murder, rape etc. Its shocking

well it seems like a catch22 situation

people who want to do something will not be allowed to do it, and people who can actually put a stop to this will not because either they themselves are criminally inclined or have benefited from the criminal links

the only way is for someone new to come in and wipe the slate clean, but it seems that only happens in the movies

 

[Red-Indian]

I don't think India's at the stage and hasn't been one country long enough for the government to consider imposing a compulsory national language as part of education. There are still several states where there are strong sentiments against being forced to learn a northern language. People have mentioned Tamil Nadu but its almost unheard of know Hindi in interior Kerala. Karnataka outside Bangalore would strongly resent it. Andhra Pradesh has periodic bursts of regional sentiment and outside Hyderabad, I find it almost impossible to meet people who know Hindi. Its not worth the effort and antagonism it woult create to impose a national language at this time.

Bollywood's doing a better job incentivising people to learn Hindi than the government. Except in the South where they have a very strong regional language film industry, watching Hindi movies is a big part of why people learn Hindi.

I have no doubt that in the long run as mixing increases, people will have to find a way to communicate with each other and its going be either Hindi or English which is the language in which they will communicate and we should leave it at that.

 

[VidaRed]

The behaviour of the commies during the Sino-Indian war was even more disgraceful.

They should have been lined up and shot for treason. I also wouldn't be surprised if the chinese are supplying the naxals.

 

[vijay]

People already do not have the choice to drop Maths. Science, Social studies, History etc. before 10th standard. Adding another subject to that is not a big deal at all.

And I already told you, in other states than Tamil Nadu, people do not have an issue with speaking or learning Hindi. Even during time of independence, it was a Tamil movement to stop Hindi from becoming a national language.

It was after Independence the anti Hindi riots started after Nehru declared Hindi and English would be the national language. Apparently the leaders that staged the Dharna all were proficient in Hindi, they thought it would supress regional language and Tamils have an extra pride of their language being the oldest in the world. During pre independence the mode of comms were either in Hindi or English in many of those internal meetings...no one ever made fuss over that language.....

Also with regional channels from state politicians have exponentially gone up, Hindi new channels these days to the neutrals are like analysing Congress and BJP, the public interest would soar up during parliamentary elections only to go down after that.

 

[vijay]

Official Language is Sansrit.
National Language is Hindi

Just for jokes.

You're right about that. But I also have said that acceptance comes as a part of evolutionary cycle. Else it will be treated just like Merman just said.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Jatin. I've always maintained that I can see where you're coming from and really feel you should do try and understand the same for me.

Should we move on?

Even if its for a joke, Muslims and Christians would start riots if any word in Sanskrit gets uttered in the parliament.

Sanskrit, Tamil and Urdu are more qualified than Hindi enough to become national language, its for the religious rants that fly from every corner of the society, these languages have taken the backseat.

Also this becomes a reason for minorities and their political leaders to promote their respective regional language and English over Hindi in the name of tradition.

 

[vijay]

For the start lets list down the langauges we all can converse.,,I am bit of a polyglot can converse in Hindi, Malayalam, Tamil, a bit of Kannada, Telugu along with English and French not fluently nor can I write but can read and get along with people...Very good in Sanskrit only language I studied properly when I was religiously retarded as a kid.

Taken up Gujarati lessons off late, thanks to my colleague and responding her in Hindi...I find Marati more gayer than Gujarati much like the rhythmic Serbo Croat language it gets hilarious everytime Marati blokes break in to their mother tongue from Hindi...I havent travelled to eastern parts of India yet but never had trouble whereever I went.

 

[Interval]

For the start lets list down the langauges we all can converse.,,I am bit of a polyglot can converse in Hindi, Malayalam, Tamil, a bit of Kannada, Telugu along with English and French not fluently but can get along with people...Very good in Sanskrit only language I studied when I was religiously retarded as a kid.

Taken up Gujarati lessons off late, thanks to my colleague and responding to her in Hindi...I find Marati more gayer than Gujarati much like the rhythmic Serbo Croat language it gets hilarious when Marati blokes break in to their mother tongue from Hindi...I havent travelled to eastern parts of India but never had trouble whereever I went.

Thats friggin awesome!

Marthi is a much coarser language than Gujarati. Gujarati is probably one of the sweeter leanguage to the year. Marathi, though, despite being more powerful, is harsher to the ear.

Nothing beats Urdu for the smoothness and sweetness.

 

[vijay]

They should have been lined up and shot for treason. I also wouldn't be surprised if the chinese are supplying the naxals.

The attitudes of commies are disgusting but India would've been better off had we followed Chinese way of administration our nation would've been better off and a strong production and agricultural domain than being a service oriented provider and a consumer market.

Capitalism is something, our rural blokes cannot fathom, not the current generation of the metrosexualistic Indians think it is and for a nation with most corrupt polticial structure, it can only pile up the pressure on the working class eventually

 

[Interval]

The attitudes of commies are disgusting but India would've been better off had we followed Chinese way of administration our nation would've been better off and a strong production and agricultural domain than being a service oriented provider and a consumer market.

Capitalism is something, our rural blokes cannot fathom, not the current generation of the metrosexualistic Indians think it is and for a nation with most corrupt polticial structure, it can only pile up the pressure on the working class eventually

We were following that model and trying to boost only agriculture till the late 70's. It has never worked because the monsoons are unpredictable

 

[vijay]

We were following that model and trying to boost only agriculture till the late 70's. It has never worked because the monsoons are unpredictable

But the transition did happen only overnight and has gone worse over the last eight or ten years...

Even in the 80's farmers as a whole were still involved in barter system of trading, self sufficient and making a decent profit on top of that.These days they prefer to sell their land to MNC's stacking up crores in their bank account. Not only agriculture but this effect has got transitioned to all small scale industries and workers - its very hard to find goldsmiths shops these days as all of them have either left the business or taken up jobs in reputed jewellery complexes for a fixed income. Its also hard to find auto mechanic shops as many of these blokes prefer to work as security guards in call centres for a fixed income rather running their business as its becoming increasing difficult to start and sustain businesses in india..... the person has to to align with some one big. If I plan to start a retail chain with a small investment in Bangalore or Chennai I need to compete with Reliance and Birla - in the name of FDI the protective tariff got relaxed without bothering to save our production domain. If its software industry without political support its impossible to crack....

Couple of years back when I was travelling around Bombay I found it hard to find a cobbler and when I traced one he charged me twenty rupees for fixing my chappals, dont blame him though. It can only worse, things that can be recycled with indegenious productive labour are fast becoming obsolete, if your slippers are slightly worn out it cannot be mended should be thrown away.....

India as a country does not have the capablity to gear up for capitalism, with cluelessness of a common Indian and the corrupt political climate, we have stepped in to something thats too big for our shoes, it should implode sooner than later.

 

[VidaRed]

We were following that model and trying to boost only agriculture till the late 70's. It has never worked because the monsoons are unpredictable

Majority of our farmers still rely on the monsoon even today...i still cant understand why pipelines aren't being constructed to reach every corner of the country so that the farmers would have a continuous supply of water. Our production would easily double.

 

[vikram10]

It's not just relying on the rains anymore though. It's always been that way. But more recently and I think worryingly, the incentives to farm are not competitive any more. As a result, mass urbanization. One of the best things to have happened was the first green revolution in the 70s and 80s but my impression is that that progress is slowly rolling back. And if things continue, we'll have to start importing food at some point. Not that some of the population won't be able to afford imported food but the price fluctuations could have a serious impact for the poor. Water irrigation is the key, I agree. Apparently, even in the worst monsoon years, there's plenty of water to go around if it can be saved...no infrastructure.

 

[jatin]

Even if its for a joke, Muslims and Christians would start riots if any word in Sanskrit gets uttered in the parliament.

Sanskrit, Tamil and Urdu are more qualified than Hindi enough to become national language, its for the religious rants that fly from every corner of the society, these languages have taken the backseat.

Also this becomes a reason for minorities and their political leaders to promote their respective regional language and English over Hindi in the name of tradition.

How exactly is Tamil more qualified than Hindi?

 

[VidaRed]

Everyboy's blog: Hindi Vs Tamil (in 1960s)

 

[vijay]

How exactly is Tamil more qualified than Hindi?

Oldest language in world along with Sanskrit......Both came out of Devanagiri scripts apparently...The oldest available literature in Indian lanaguage is available only in Tamil, dating back to 10000 BC. If a renowned literature rich in grammatical representations are available back to that date then the writing manuscripts should date further beyond....Some one who is proficient in Indian literature can tell you a lot...

Sanskrit also has scripts but they are more centered on Hinduism...Previosuly there was no South Indian states after the Independence, I might be wrong here on the dates, some one can correct me. It was called Madras Rajdhani comprising of four South Indian states along with a certain portion of Orissa with the Tamil population being dispersed uniformly, before the split happenned. If National language is to be centered around most prestigious one Urdu, Tamil, Sanskrit should all take precendence over Hindi.

 

[vikram10]

Interesting stuff. I don't know much about Telugu's origins but I think it's about 900 yrs old but never really had a written scripture to propagate. At least for a long time, it was mostly oral. And then surprisingly, when it seemed to almost lose its use, an East India Britisher CP Brown learned the language and started writing it down in the 1700s. And that's the written Telugu more or less used today.

 

[crappycraperson]

Oldest language in world along with Sanskrit......Both came out of Devanagiri scripts apparently...The oldest available literature in Indian lanaguage is available only in Tamil, dating back to 10000 BC. If a renowned literature rich in grammatical representations are available back to that date then the writing manuscripts should date further beyond....Some one who is proficient in Indian literature can tell you a lot...

Sanskrit also has scripts but they are more centered on Hinduism...Previosuly there was no South Indian states after the Independence, I might be wrong here on the dates, some one can correct me. It was called Madras Rajdhani comprising of four South Indian states along with a certain portion of Orissa with the Tamil population being dispersed uniformly, before the split happenned. If National language is to be centered around most prestigious one Urdu, Tamil, Sanskrit should all take precendence over Hindi.

It is not about most prestigious, but most practical one.

 

[jatin]

Oldest language in world along with Sanskrit......Both came out of Devanagiri scripts apparently...The oldest available literature in Indian lanaguage is available only in Tamil, dating back to 10000 BC. If a renowned literature rich in grammatical representations are available back to that date then the writing manuscripts should date further beyond....Some one who is proficient in Indian literature can tell you a lot...

Sanskrit also has scripts but they are more centered on Hinduism...Previosuly there was no South Indian states after the Independence, I might be wrong here on the dates, some one can correct me. It was called Madras Rajdhani comprising of four South Indian states along with a certain portion of Orissa with the Tamil population being dispersed uniformly, before the split happenned. If National language is to be centered around most prestigious one Urdu, Tamil, Sanskrit should all take precendence over Hindi.

the pharoh's were the oldest civilization in the world, why not use their language then??

its not about the oldest language, atleast 80% of the county's population can't speak it, so whats the point? ditto for sanskrit

 

[Red-Indian]

I think the language issue is a minor one compared to the wider issue that it represents - the question of central vs. state.

Since Independance, basically due to the fears about lack of a unifying factor that would hold India together, the centre has been strongly emphasised in comparison to the state. Compared to say the United States, states in India have much lower autonomy in terms of raising finances, governing and setting laws. While this has to an extent helped to create a national identity, it is not a practical solution in a country of more than a billion people. Central government has become large, unwieldy and basically too powerful. Most states in India basically depend on handouts from the centre for their budgets and their fortunes essentially depend on whether the governing party is the same as in the centre. States and governing units below states need a great deal more autonomy in several areas for government to function more effectively. The Central government must focus on a few areas like defense, foreign affairs etc.

An unfortunate side effect is going to be more regional feelings and possibly even xenophobic movements but its a price we'll have to pay for bringing government closer to the people. I do believe a considerable extent of these regional movements arise due to the feeling of alienation that people have from the government. Most people are convinced that unelected bureaucrats controlled by the Centre rather than local elected officials actually govern them.

The movements for regional languages are only a side effect of these feelings.

 

[sammsky1]

Well you can, in the sense that most of the people you meet in India, outside of the deepest countryside, will speak at least a bit of either Hindi or Urdu or English, as well as their own language.

That is not necessarily true from my own experiences.

When you go into southern states like Kerela, Andra Pradesh and Tamil Nadu or some of the western tea estate regions, the majority of people speak very very little Hindi if indeed any at all. Indeed, you will probably have more luck with English.

 

[sammsky1]

Plech, sounds like you've been all over India. Do most people on the outskirts of Vanarasi speak a touch of Hindi?

well?

Yes, In Varanassi they do. They do across most of North India (known as 'The Cow Belt'). Indeed, in places like Varanassi, the Hindi is of the most classical.

 

[sammsky1]

Yeah, I have noticed that many people from Andhra and Karnataka can speak in Hindi. It is only really the Tamil folk who outright refuse to learn it.

But the point is many many many cannot.

 

[sammsky1]

Forcing a language only justifies their concerns that they're being treated as secondary citizens.

Indeed Dipper .... such a desire led to the heinous war which eventually broke up Pakistan and led to the creation of Bangladesh in 1971.

 

[Red-Indian]

But the point is many many many cannot.

Quite true. Andhra - around Hyderabad and Karnataka - around Bangalore is where the Hindi speakers are. Since most people you meet are from those areas, many people assume Hindi is spoken widely. I hav traveled a bit into interior Karnataka and a great deal into interior AP and I can assure that most people would only know the odd Hindi word, if that.

 

[sammsky1]

Ridiculous.

Yeah people will become second class citizens if they have to learn another language in school. People can not seem to get it through thick heads that no body is trying to replace a regional language with Hindi.

Out of interest, what is driving your motivation for it to be Hindi to be the national language?

Likewise, you are being naive if you think language can be a vehicle that can be pandered with and manipulated. Language is possible the most important element that defines people to a culture. Without it, one loses all sense of history and belonging.

 

[sammsky1]

Quite true. Andhra - around Hyderabad and Karnataka - around Bangalore is where the Hindi speakers are. Since most people you meet are from those areas, many people assume Hindi is spoken widely. I hav traveled a bit into interior Karnataka and a great deal into interior AP and I can assure that most people would only know the odd Hindi word, if that.

and that odd Hindi word will likely come from some famous movie title! Like you I have travelled all across India, both in cities and deep into the rural abyss and Hindi was not something that came in that useful! As I said, English was more universal.

As an aside, when i worked in India (for a major multinational doing advertising and marketing), I remember whenever I made a new Tv advertisement, the 1st major task after production was to lip sync the ad into 8 different languages! It really was an eye opening introduction to the incredible diversity of this wonderful nation.

 

[sammsky1]

I think the language issue is a minor one compared to the wider issue that it represents - the question of central vs. state.

Since Independance, basically due to the fears about lack of a unifying factor that would hold India together, the centre has been strongly emphasised in comparison to the state. Compared to say the United States, states in India have much lower autonomy in terms of raising finances, governing and setting laws. While this has to an extent helped to create a national identity, it is not a practical solution in a country of more than a billion people. Central government has become large, unwieldy and basically too powerful. Most states in India basically depend on handouts from the centre for their budgets and their fortunes essentially depend on whether the governing party is the same as in the centre. States and governing units below states need a great deal more autonomy in several areas for government to function more effectively. The Central government must focus on a few areas like defense, foreign affairs etc.

An unfortunate side effect is going to be more regional feelings and possibly even xenophobic movements but its a price we'll have to pay for bringing government closer to the people. I do believe a considerable extent of these regional movements arise due to the feeling of alienation that people have from the government. Most people are convinced that unelected bureaucrats controlled by the Centre rather than local elected officials actually govern them.

The movements for regional languages are only a side effect of these feelings.

Good post.

 

[jatin]

Out of interest, what is driving your motivation for it to be Hindi to be the national language?

Likewise, you are being naive if you think language can be a vehicle that can be pandered with and manipulated. Language is possible the most important element that defines people to a culture. Without it, one loses all sense of history and belonging.

nobody can drive Hindi to be the National Language when it ALREADY IS

what part of that do you not understand

on the other hand

what is your driving motivation to go against the ALREADY DECLARED NATIONAL LANGUAGE

 

[sammsky1]

nobody can drive Hindi to be the National Language when it ALREADY IS

what part of that do you not understand

on the other hand

what is your driving motivation to go against the ALREADY DECLARED NATIONAL LANGUAGE

But it clearly isn't ... else you would not be trying to enforce your view! And anyway India has many national languages, Hindi being one only of them.

My motivation for keeping all the languages is one of history and culture. Asking one to change ones language is very dangerous and always lead to bloodshed, which India can do without right now.

 

[jatin]

But it clearly isn't ... else you would not be trying to enforce your view! And anyway India has many national languages, Hindi being one only of them.

My motivation for keeping all the languages is one of history and culture. Asking one to change ones language is very dangerous and always lead to bloodshed, which India can do without right now.

I am not trying to enforce my view, infact I have been trying to say, that why is there a need to enforce a view when the constitution of India recognizes Hindi as the National Language of the country, the lotus as the National Flower, the Peacock as the National Bird and so and so forth

 

[Red-Indian]

Oh shut up with the screaming!

First there's no such thing as national language in India. Hindi is recognised as the 'official language' and the only thing the constitution mandates is that 'attempts would be made increase the scope of Hindi in official matters on a gradual basis'(wiki). Any attempt to enforce the learning of Hindi on everybody in the country is not backed by law.

Second, I suspect Sammsky is not talking about it being the official language. He's only questioning why everybody needs to speak it. As long as people are able to communicate, whether it be in English, Hindi or a wierd mixture involving several languages and sign language, I don't see the problem.

Third, he's not going against Hindi. Just questioning why it needs to be given primacy over other languages which are also recognised as official by the constitution.

 

[VidaRed]

In time the southerners will be speaking hindi....give it time.