India

[jatin]

Oh shut up with the screaming!

First there's no such thing as national language in India. Hindi is recognised as the 'official language' and the only thing the constitution mandates is that 'attempts would be made increase the scope of Hindi in official matters on a gradual basis'(wiki). Any attempt to enforce the learning of Hindi on everybody in the country is not backed by law.

Second, I suspect Sammsky is not talking about it being the official language. He's only questioning why everybody needs to speak it. As long as people are able to communicate, whether it be in English, Hindi or a wierd mixture involving several languages and sign language, I don't see the problem.

Third, he's not going against Hindi. Just questioning why it needs to be given primacy over other languages which are also recognised as official by the constitution.

first of all, big feck you on your face

secondly
ok so Hindi is the "official language" fine,

what part of Official do you not understand then?

you question why everyone should speak in Hindi, who said they should??? go back and read the posts, there is no issue with what one choses to speak, but to throw chappals at someone in the assembly when he is speaking Hindi, that is a big feckin problem and if you don't recognize that, then again big feck you on your face

lastly since you are not adept at reading, we had all agreed to disagree on our opinions and move on to a different topic, but you lot brought it back !!!

 

[Spoony]

Why should a language of a select few from Northern India rule over the whole population?

 

[Red-Indian]

first of all, big feck you on your face

secondly
ok so Hindi is the "official language" fine,

what part of Official do you not understand then?

you question why everyone should speak in Hindi, who said they should??? go back and read the posts, there is no issue with what one choses to speak, but to throw chappals at someone in the assembly when he is speaking Hindi, that is a big feckin problem and if you don't recognize that, then again big feck you on your face

lastly since you are not adept at reading, we had all agreed to disagree on our opinions and move on to a different topic, but you lot brought it back !!!

If you'll stop getting excited, we can discuss this calmly.

The question my friend is not what part of 'Official' do I understand but rather whether you understand the distinction between 'National' and 'Official.' While we have a national flag, anthem, sport, animal and even a national fruit, we do not have a national language.

Hindi is only mandated an official language in the sense that government business is required to be carrried on as much as possible in Hindi. In fact, its not mandatory for national laws to be recorded in Hindi - only in English. There is a mandate though for the Central government (not the state governments) to steadily increase its use of Hindi in official matters.

There's no such thing as a National language and there's unlikely to be.

 

[VidaRed]

which part of the country are you from red-indian ?

 

[VidaRed]

Why should a language of a select few from Northern India rule over the whole population?

majority of the people in India speak hindi so there's no such thing as a select few.

 

[Spoony]

majority of the people in India speak hindi so there's no such thing as a select few.

Not people in the South. But anyway you've missed my point why is a language from North/Central India regarded as 'official' and the one everyone should be able to speak, yet languages from other regions don't get the same exposure? Hindi clearly was a regional language as well once.

 

[Red-Indian]

which part of the country are you from red-indian ?

I'm a bit of hybrid really. I'm from AP but I never lived there. Grew up most of my life in Bombay and then spent some time in Calcutta. Lived abroad for a few years. Came back a year and a half ago and now live in Delhi.

 

[Red-Indian]

Not people in the South. But anyway you've missed my point why is a language from North/Central India regarded as 'official' and the one everyone should be able to speak, yet languages from other regions don't get the same exposure? Hindi clearly was a regional language as well once.

According to 2001 census (wiki again), about 41% of the population speaks Hindi. No other language crosses 10% but 41% is a long way from being a majority.

 

[jatin]

Why should a language of a select few from Northern India rule over the whole population?

apart from a couple of states in the south no-one else has an issue with it

so the question is this

why should a select few states from the South hold precedence over a vast majority of the rest of the country

 

[VidaRed]

I'm a bit of hybrid really. I'm from AP but I never lived there. Grew up most of my life in Bombay and then spent some time in Calcutta. Lived abroad for a few years. Came back a year and a half ago and now live in Delhi.

living in the half dug up delhi are we

 

[VidaRed]

According to 2001 census (wiki again), about 41% of the population speaks Hindi. No other language crosses 10% but 41% is a long way from being a majority.

not if you add urdu which is more or less the same thing apart from the script and punjabi is also understandable by hindi speaking people.

 

[Spoony]

apart from a couple of states in the south no-one else has an issue with it

so the question is this

why should a select few states from the South hold precedence over a vast majority of the rest of the country

Almost 60% of the population don't speak Hindi. That's a huge portion of the country.

 

[jatin]

If you'll stop getting excited, we can discuss this calmly.

The question my friend is not what part of 'Official' do I understand but rather whether you understand the distinction between 'National' and 'Official.' While we have a national flag, anthem, sport, animal and even a national fruit, we do not have a national language.

Hindi is only mandated an official language in the sense that government business is required to be carrried on as much as possible in Hindi. In fact, its not mandatory for national laws to be recorded in Hindi - only in English. There is a mandate though for the Central government (not the state governments) to steadily increase its use of Hindi in official matters.

There's no such thing as a National language and there's unlikely to be.

as I said we were discussing it calmly and had actually reached a consensus peacefully when you decided it to bump it back up, again we had moved on to more immediate and pressing matters

National / Official, you are trying to twist words around here, its quite clear that Hindi has been chosen the National/Official (whatever you choose to call it) language

and just to make things clear to you

my mother tongue is not Hindi, its Punjabi

but do you see me pressing for Punjabi over Hindi ??

As I said I have no issues with what people choose to speak, but when they start claiming that their regional language should have more importance over Hindi, thats when it goes out of hand

you cannot have Gujarati's, Marathi's, Punjabi's, Bengali's all demanding precedence for their regional language

you can speak whatever you want, but don't try to change what exists, since you won't be the only one and will start a chain reaction

 

[VidaRed]

Almost 60% of the population don't speak Hindi. That's a huge portion of the country.

you are confused...more than half of those 60% speak hindi as there second language.

 

[jatin]

Almost 60% of the population don't speak Hindi. That's a huge portion of the country.

where does % of speaking Hindi come into it

the point was that a majority of the population does not have a problem with it (irrespective of what they speak)

 

[jatin]

Almost 60% of the population don't speak Hindi. That's a huge portion of the country.

for example if you go to Punjab and chose to speak in Hindi, no one will mind it, they will reply back to you in Hindi, same in Calcutta, Gujarat, Maharashtra

but do that in Tamil Nadu and they rather speak to you in English than Hindi

you get the drift?

 

[jatin]

not if you add urdu which is more or less the same thing apart from the script and punjabi is also understandable by hindi speaking people.

not entirely true

some words yes, but proper sentences and conversations, no

 

[Spoony]

for example if you go to Punjab and chose to speak in Hindi, no one will mind it, they will reply back to you in Hindi, same in Calcutta, Gujarat, Maharashtra

but do that in Tamil Nadu and they rather speak to you in English than Hindi

you get the drift?

Yeah but what's constitutes a second language? a few choice phrases? And I think there may actually be a reason for that, most of the languages in the North are Indo-European whereas the languages in the South are Dravidian. They have completely different roots - and maybe that is one of the reasons why people possibly find it difficult in the South to talk in Hindi. But anyway, I was asking why Hindi has such a hold on the nation. . . how did it become a dominate language? It evolved from a small region just like all languages.

 

[jatin]

Yeah but what's constitutes a second language? a few choice phrases? And I think there may actually be a reason for that, most of the languages in the North are Indo-European whereas the languages in the South are Dravidian. They have completely different roots - and maybe that is one of the reasons why people possibly find it difficult in the South to talk in Hindi. But anyway, I was asking why Hindi has such a hold on the nation. . . how did it become a dominate language? It evolved from a small region just like all languages.

yes as someone else had mentioned

it evolved from devnagri and sanskrit

 

[jatin]

Yeah but what's constitutes a second language? a few choice phrases? And I think there may actually be a reason for that, most of the languages in the North are Indo-European whereas the languages in the South are Dravidian. They have completely different roots - and maybe that is one of the reasons why people possibly find it difficult in the South to talk in Hindi. But anyway, I was asking why Hindi has such a hold on the nation. . . how did it become a dominate language? It evolved from a small region just like all languages.

There is no problem in people from South having their entirely different language etc etc

the problem comes when people from said regions have an inbred hatred for Hindi

 

[Spoony]

yes as someone else had mentioned

it evolved from devnagri and sanskrit

Devnagri is a writing system - a script. And Hindi probably evolved from Prakrit. But that's not my point, I'm asking how and why it became the official language.

 

[Red-Indian]

as I said we were discussing it calmly and had actually reached a consensus peacefully when you decided it to bump it back up, again we had moved on to more immediate and pressing matters

National / Official, you are trying to twist words around here, its quite clear that Hindi has been chosen the National/Official (whatever you choose to call it) language

and just to make things clear to you

my mother tongue is not Hindi, its Punjabi

but do you see me pressing for Punjabi over Hindi ??

As I said I have no issues with what people choose to speak, but when they start claiming that their regional language should have more importance over Hindi, thats when it goes out of hand

you cannot have Gujarati's, Marathi's, Punjabi's, Bengali's all demanding precedence for their regional language

you can speak whatever you want, but don't try to change what exists, since you won't be the only one and will start a chain reaction

Oh I have no interest in pushing one language over any other. I just believe Hindi should be treated just like any other language of India.

As far as being the official language (i.e. the language of government), its pretty obvious the experiment has more or less failed. Laws are written in English and a translation is provided into Hindi just like any other language. The budget has always been presented in English. Business in all the High courts as well as the Supreme court is conducted in English. Its been a long time since even since even lip service was paid to the concept of Hindi as an official language.

You gave an example of someone (I think it was Abu Azmi) being harassed for speaking in Hindi in the Maharashtra assembly. While I strongly disagree with how he was treated, its quite obvious he does a disservice to his constituents by not being able to speak the language in which the state assembly is conducted. If he can't follow proceedings in the assembly (no translation is provided), the people of Mumbai are getting a raw deal.

 

[crappycraperson]

Quite true. Andhra - around Hyderabad and Karnataka - around Bangalore is where the Hindi speakers are. Since most people you meet are from those areas, many people assume Hindi is spoken widely. I hav traveled a bit into interior Karnataka and a great deal into interior AP and I can assure that most people would only know the odd Hindi word, if that.

No one is suggesting taking people to camps and forcing them to learn Hindi. Only suggestion is to make it a compulsory subject till 10th standard along with Maths, Science etc. Would be a start if educated people develop some base in Hindi.

 

[VP]

first of all, big feck you on your face

There is no problem in people from South having their entirely different language etc etc

the problem comes when people from said regions have an inbred hatred for Hindi

I don't think there's any hatred for Hindi as such. People from the south usually speak better English than Hindi which is why they feel more comfortable using it, it really isn't a big deal.

 

[Red-Indian]

No one is suggesting taking people to camps and forcing them to learn Hindi. Only suggestion is to make it a compulsory subject till 10th standard along with Maths, Science etc. Would be a start if educated people develop some base in Hindi.

Unlikely - Firstly its risky...language being a very sensitive subject. Its not worth sacrificing lives to get people to learn a language.

Second, there's no real point. Learing Hindi gives the kids no real advantage in life. Knowing the regional language enables them to communicate around them and knowing English allows them the option of higher education. Forcing a third compulsory language is a bit too much. It should be optional, exactly as it is now.

 

[VoetbalWizard]

english should be the official language.

each region can have their secondary languages, but to not show any favoritisim towards one region or another, just have english as the official language.

 

[jatin]

Oh I have no interest in pushing one language over any other. I just believe Hindi should be treated just like any other language of India.

As far as being the official language (i.e. the language of government), its pretty obvious the experiment has more or less failed. Laws are written in English and a translation is provided into Hindi just like any other language. The budget has always been presented in English. Business in all the High courts as well as the Supreme court is conducted in English. Its been a long time since even since even lip service was paid to the concept of Hindi as an official language.

You gave an example of someone (I think it was Abu Azmi) being harassed for speaking in Hindi in the Maharashtra assembly. While I strongly disagree with how he was treated, its quite obvious he does a disservice to his constituents by not being able to speak the language in which the state assembly is conducted. If he can't follow proceedings in the assembly (no translation is provided), the people of Mumbai are getting a raw deal.

Last time I checked, Maharashtra was a part of India and if the Indian govt holds Hindi as the official language, then how is it a disservice that he is not able to speak in Marathi?

are you going to criticize people for speaking their official language in their own country???

 

[crappycraperson]

I think the language issue is a minor one compared to the wider issue that it represents - the question of central vs. state.

Since Independance, basically due to the fears about lack of a unifying factor that would hold India together, the centre has been strongly emphasised in comparison to the state. Compared to say the United States, states in India have much lower autonomy in terms of raising finances, governing and setting laws. While this has to an extent helped to create a national identity, it is not a practical solution in a country of more than a billion people. Central government has become large, unwieldy and basically too powerful. Most states in India basically depend on handouts from the centre for their budgets and their fortunes essentially depend on whether the governing party is the same as in the centre. States and governing units below states need a great deal more autonomy in several areas for government to function more effectively. The Central government must focus on a few areas like defense, foreign affairs etc.

An unfortunate side effect is going to be more regional feelings and possibly even xenophobic movements but its a price we'll have to pay for bringing government closer to the people. I do believe a considerable extent of these regional movements arise due to the feeling of alienation that people have from the government. Most people are convinced that unelected bureaucrats controlled by the Centre rather than local elected officials actually govern them.

The movements for regional languages are only a side effect of these feelings.

Good post.

But I do not think the growing regionalism is a just an unfortunate side effect. I think, if the states in India have more power like the US federal system, the farce that was Karnataka vs Tamil Nadu few years ago over the water issue would be a regular occurrence. There are just so many drwabacks of having a federal system in India as opposed to the advantages.

I do not find the US system of different laws in different states desirable. I am for uniform civil law code, this would remove us even further away from that.

Given the nature of Indian politics, it could easily lead to segregation of religion and communities in different states.

The advent of separatist movements.

In a country which is still fighting against several discriminations based on caste, religion etc, I do not think it is a good idea to add add another category.

 

[jatin]

Unlikely - Firstly its risky...language being a very sensitive subject. Its not worth sacrificing lives to get people to learn a language.

Second, there's no real point. Learing Hindi gives the kids no real advantage in life. Knowing the regional language enables them to communicate around them and knowing English allows them the option of higher education. Forcing a third compulsory language is a bit too much. It should be optional, exactly as it is now.

Learning Chemistry gives kids (who want to become businessmen or into finance/marketing etc etc) no real advantage in life, why should they learn chemistry then , or history or biology or physics

 

[VoetbalWizard]

In time the southerners will be speaking hindi....give it time.

bollocks

 

[Red-Indian]

Last time I checked, Maharashtra was a part of India and if the Indian govt holds Hindi as the official language, then how is it a disservice that he is not able to speak in Marathi?

are you going to criticize people for speaking their official language in their own country???

I would've thought its obvious. All proceedings in the Maharashtra state assembly take place in Marathi (this is allowed by the Indian constitution before you get excited again). So if an MLA doesn't know Marathi, he has no idea what is going on. If they were talking about how his constituency should be denied all central funds, he wouldn't understand it in order to oppose it! I don't see how thats not doing his constituents a disservice.

 

[sammsky1]

apart from a couple of states in the south no-one else has an issue with it

so the question is this

why should a select few states from the South hold precedence over a vast majority of the rest of the country

Here is the problem: You are making sweeping and inaccurate generalisations which make it difficult to have a credible conversation.

In no terms can 60% of the population be considered as 'a few southern states'.

Anyway, Im still trying to work out what your issue is. Its very puzzling.

 

[Red-Indian]

Learning Chemistry gives kids (who want to become businessmen or into finance/marketing etc etc) no real advantage in life, why should they learn chemistry then , or history or biology or physics

I'm not going to bother answering that. If you don't understand the difference between teaching a kid chemistry to give him the option of deciding his career and preferences later in life and teaching him or her Hindi to satisfy someone's vague ideals of national integrity, then there's no real point arguing.

 

[crappycraperson]

Unlikely - Firstly its risky...language being a very sensitive subject. Its not worth sacrificing lives to get people to learn a language.

Second, there's no real point. Learing Hindi gives the kids no real advantage in life. Knowing the regional language enables them to communicate around them and knowing English allows them the option of higher education. Forcing a third compulsory language is a bit too much. It should be optional, exactly as it is now.

That is the difference between you me.

My time in Europe, has actually made me feel ashamed that I can not converse purely in any of my native languages. (Note I term all Indian languages as my natives one, as opposed to Tamils who consider Hindi as foreign as French or German). After seeing the efforts of French, Greeks and others to conserve their language and culture, it is a shame that we are moving towards having English as unifying language for India, language of our rulers not so long. Even that would be ok, if we ourselves did not have lingual base.

 

[sammsky1]

for example if you go to Punjab and chose to speak in Hindi, no one will mind it, they will reply back to you in Hindi, same in Calcutta, Gujarat, Maharashtra

but do that in Tamil Nadu and they rather speak to you in English than Hindi

you get the drift?

again simply not true. Most bengali's and Gujerati's will not reply in hindi because a) they dont know the language well enough b) because they have pride in their own language.

I know many from that part of the world who will reply in English on point of principle.

 

[jatin]

I would've thought its obvious. All proceedings in the Maharashtra state assembly take place in Marathi (this is allowed by the Indian constitution before you get excited again). So if an MLA doesn't know Marathi, he has no idea what is going on. If they were talking about how his constituency should be denied all central funds, he wouldn't understand it in order to oppose it! I don't see how thats not doing his constituents a disservice.

its not a problem
he can have interpreters, and once again, there is no rule in the constitution (as you pointed out) that he has to speak in Marathi, he can speak in Tamil if he wants (as it is an official language right), if people have an issue with that, then it is discrimination on the basis of regions/language etc

 

[jatin]

I'm not going to bother answering that. If you don't understand the difference between teaching a kid chemistry to give him the option of deciding his career and preferences later in life and teaching him or her Hindi to satisfy someone's vague ideals of national integrity, then there's no real point arguing.

teaching someone Hindi is not satisfy someone's vague ideals of national integrity

lets take your example

what if the kid gets a job in a place where they speak hindi only then what, will it not hamper his career that he can't even speak the official language of his country

if people from Oman can be bothered to learn Hindi I don't see an issue with why our own countrymen can't learn it

its quite clear who has issues here about their national integrity

 

[crappycraperson]

No one is being manipulated. Very few groups bar Tamils have this paranoia that there is conspiracy to erase their language and replace it with Hindi.

A good majority of higher educated people in AP, Karnataka, Orissa, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Bengal which all have a regional language can converse in Hindi. That is all being asked, getting people going to schools to develop a base in one common Indian language.

 

[jatin]

again simply not true. Most bengali's and Gujerati's will not reply in hindi because a) they dont know the language well enough b) because they have pride in their own language.

I know many from that part of the world who will reply in English on point of principle.

again simply not true

I know many from that part of the world who will reply in Hindi

I have been to both places and never had issues with communicating with most of the local public in hindi

 

[Red-Indian]

That is the difference between you me.

My time in Europe, has actually made me feel ashamed that I can not converse purely in any of my native languages. (Note I term all Indian languages as my natives one, as opposed to Tamils who consider Hindi as foreign as French or German). After seeing the efforts of French, Greeks and others to conserve their language and culture, it is a shame that we are moving towards having English as unifying language for India, language of our rulers not so long. Even that would be ok, if we ourselves did not have lingual base.

I guess thats a difference. I lived in one of the countries you mention - Greece for 3 years and it made me very proud that while you were unlikely to get someone to understand you and help you with directions if you didn't speak Greek in the interiors, you'd never have that problem in India. You'd always find someone who could speak in English.

I too am pretty fond of my regional language (Telugu, by the way). In fact, i've grown fonder of it as i've grown older. I also speak Hindi and Marathi fluently and can manage in Kannada and Tamil. As I grew up, I would've liked to have Marathi compulsory since I was living in Maharashtra, English to give me the option of studying further (all higher education is in English) and one other optional language.

We preserve our linguistic and cultural base by knowing our respective regional languages and integrate with the world by knowing English. I don't see how it could be any other way.