Ireland left horrified by Ana Kriégel’s murder in a derelict farmhouse

[sullydnl]

Murder by association. Joint enterprise - he knowingly led her to her death; without his part, the murder could not have taken place.

He was more than complicit; he was the catalyst.

Aye, in theory him being done for murder is fine.

The potential problem is how narrow the evidence was for convicting him on that basis. It essentially hinged on the jury believing that a) his lies to the police were more than the panic of a scared kid caught up in a murder and b) that he didn't actually think Boy A was joking when he had suggested they kill someone (a conversation the police only knew about because Boy B himself told them about it). It's very much walking the edge of securing a guilty verdict.

 

[Fortitude]

Aye, in theory him being done for murder is fine.

The potential problem is how narrow the evidence was for convicting him on that basis. It essentially hinged on the jury believing that a) his lies to the police were more than the panic of a scared kid caught up in a murder and b) that he didn't actually think Boy A was joking when he had suggested they kill someone (a conversation the police only knew about because Boy B himself told them about it). It's very much walking the edge of securing a guilty verdict.

It's a fine line for sure and I tend to think it comes down to the strength of the lawyers arguing for and against. I doubt you can find an impartial jury for a trial such as this, so I think there is more sway to prosecution than not.

Imagine being called up for jury duty for a case like this and being one of the objective ones weighing up the information as told and trying not to let emotions pervade, or even pervert your reasoning. That trial will be brutal.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I'm really unsure on this issue.

On the one hand, my instant reaction is to be deeply suspicious of people pointing the finger at pornography in cases like this. It smacks of the sort of moral panic that has seen (and still sees) campaigns against certain types of films, music and video games in the past. It's also hard to discern between causation and correlation. As you say, it might be that bad people are drawn to bad imagery rather than bad imagery influencing bad people. Plus, any campaign to block porn to those underage will run afoul of the fact that an internet-savvy teen will quickly find away around such a block. Fundamentally parents are in a better position to block access to and contexualise the realities of porn than the government or campaign groups are.

On the other hand, we regularly see articles describing the various effects exposure to porn can have on men, for example in terms of erectile dysfunction, say. Once we accept that years of exposure to porn can have some sort of impact on people's attitude towards and relationship to sex, the idea of actual children being exposed to unlimited quantities of the most violent porn the internet has to offer becomes an alarming one. Even if it doesn't lead to extreme criminal acts, it would surely have to have some effect on their ability to have a healthy and happy sex life (and attitude towards women) as young men? Not mentioning any negative effect it could also have on young women. At which point I wonder if an age block (even one that only hinders a portion of kids from being exposed to porn at a young age) might still be worthwhile. For all that I think parents are the best people to deal with this issue, I also recognise that a lot of parents are ignorant idiots who won't do so properly.

Perhaps there are broader problems with the ease of children accessing extreme pornography but I am a bit sceptical of the influence in extreme cases like this. It still feels like it's a pretty isolated events. I could be wrong as I'm only going off my perception rather than any hard evidence.

This case is being compared to the Bulger one. If you remember back to that case, it was pre-internet and the bad guy was the Child's Play film that the kids had been watching from a young age. I think the two perpetrators in that case were victims of parental neglect too.

Regarding the porn block. I am on the fence a bit like you. It won't stop internet savvy teenagers accessing porn but it could reduce the number of younger children being exposed to it which can't be a bad thing.

 

[Cloud7]

It's hard as an adult to wrap your head around the idea that kids would be that capable of thought-out cruelty, let alone for kids themselves.

It’s not the least bit difficult for me to imagine it. I’ve long come to terms with the fact that some people are just born evil, there’s not much more to it.

I find it incredibly difficult to have faith in the rehabilitation of criminals like these. Or perhaps I'm lacking empathy...which is ironic.

I can’t feel anything for criminals like this. Child, adult, it doesn’t matter to me. I wonder how much crime people who believe anyone can be rehabilitated have been exposed to, to truly think something like that.

 

[sullydnl]

Perhaps there are broader problems with the ease of children accessing extreme pornography but I am a bit sceptical of the influence in extreme cases like this. It still feels like it's a pretty isolated events. I could be wrong as I'm only going off my perception rather than any hard evidence.

This case is being compared to the Bulger one. If you remember back to that case, it was pre-internet and the bad guy was the Child's Play film that the kids had been watching from a young age. I think the two perpetrators in that case were victims of parental neglect too.

Regarding the porn block. I am on the fence a bit like you. It won't stop internet savvy teenagers accessing porn but it could reduce the number of younger children being exposed to it which can't be a bad thing.

Aye, when I mentioned the moral panic against certain films I was specifically thinking of Child's Play too but in relation to this case:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Capper

In both instances the actual investigators rejected the idea that the film had inspired the violence but it's a lot easier for people to blame a film than to accept that even some kids can carry that capacity for cruelty and violence inside them.

 

[Raees]

I'd use the death penalty on those lads. Horrific story.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Neither of them should be free again. I'm sorry but by 13 years old you know what is right and wrong. They are beyond help.

 

[predator]

Can't believe I haven't seen any coverage of this harrowing crime here in the UK. I'm pretty insensitive to shocking crimes these days due to reading so much about them but this one is haunting due to the circumstances involving the poor victim.

Without having all the evidence in front of me and having not met Boy B, I cannot judge the severity of his punishment.

Boy A however should never be released from detention imo, or should always be monitored by the authorities. To have those tendencies at that age is bad enough but to act on them is pure evil/psychopathic/devoid of any emotion.


When I was 14 years old, 10 years ago, I did things I wouldn't do now such as knock a door run, thinking I was hard with my mates on our paddle bikes and generally being a rascal. The transition from 14 to 18 to now doesn't seem that significant for me though. I still feel the same person, still have a cheeky side but now respect those teachers that told me off and idolise my parents who I thought were mean at times.

The two that murdered James Bulger were 10 years old and tbh I cant remember that much at all from that age. They were kids.

RIP Ana

 

[Sandikan]

Horrible story.
Like the Bulger case, an example of pure evil in kids that young. Most likely as per that case at least one of them will come out of jail quite soon, and go on and do more warped stuff.

I hope any of those kids who bullied this poor girl have that on their conscience for life.

 

[Cloud7]

When I was 14 years old, 10 years ago, I did things I wouldn't do now such as knock a door run, thinking I was hard with my mates on our paddle bikes and generally being a rascal.

This is what I always think about when people try to say “they’re just kids”. All of us were kids once. I’m pretty sure none of us went out and murdered someone because we were young and didn’t know better. Those aren’t the actions of a child making a mistake. Those are the actions of a monster.

 

[VorZakone]

This is what I always think about when people try to say “they’re just kids”. All of us were kids once. I’m pretty sure none of us went out and murdered someone because we were young and didn’t know better. Those aren’t the actions of a child making a mistake. Those are the actions of a monster.

I'm quite confident nobody will actually use the phrase "they're just kids" regarding this murder.

 

[DJ Jeff]

I disagree with that. I find that stance like blaming video games for mass murder.

My son locks himself into fortnite and while it's summer he's got his best friend over and they're fecking wild.
I just feed them pizza and soda.

BUT I always go and check what they are doing and saying. It's about caring what they are doing and who they are talking to.

And talk. Talk. Talk.

And talk.

Not blaming porn for what happened but young people in particular are covering their eyes to its damaging effects

 

[Fortitude]

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/29/...-japan-for-the-brutal-slaying-of-a-child.html

There are loads of these cases around the world, many of which precede the internet and some, even video. Blaming porn, or games, or movies simply doesn't work because people/kids prone to doing this will always find an outlet, one of the more common ones being killing animals before moving up the chain, so to speak.

Porn cannot exacerbate something that's not there in the first place, which is why the vast majority of porn-watchers are no more deviant than those who don't watch or use it.

Boy A, I wouldn't doubt, has been leading up to this for a very long time.

 

[DJ Jeff]

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/29/...-japan-for-the-brutal-slaying-of-a-child.html

There are loads of these cases around the world, many of which precede the internet and some, even video. Blaming porn, or games, or movies simply doesn't work because people/kids prone to doing this will always find an outlet, one of the more common ones being killing animals before moving up the chain, so to speak.

Porn cannot exacerbate something that's not there in the first place, which is why the vast majority of porn-watchers are no more deviant than those who don't watch or use it.

Boy A, I wouldn't doubt, has been leading up to this for a very long time.

I wonder will the press ban be lifted on their identities in lieu of them being so de facto public now. I would be interested to hear Boy A's history. Surely there were signs before he raped and murdered a girl

 

[Pogue Mahone]

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/06/29/...-japan-for-the-brutal-slaying-of-a-child.html

There are loads of these cases around the world, many of which precede the internet and some, even video. Blaming porn, or games, or movies simply doesn't work because people/kids prone to doing this will always find an outlet, one of the more common ones being killing animals before moving up the chain, so to speak.

Porn cannot exacerbate something that's not there in the first place, which is why the vast majority of porn-watchers are no more deviant than those who don't watch or use it.

Boy A, I wouldn't doubt, has been leading up to this for a very long time.

Isn’t that the point, though? It’s exacerbating something that was there in the first place. Something that might not have got out of hand, otherwise. As @sullydnl already explained, we can’t rule out the possibility that something a mature mind can handle could mess up a developing mind.

I’m in the camp that believes we can’t put the genie back in the bottle. Any kind of ban would be unworkable. We do need to think long and hard about damage limitation though. Whatever that may involve.

 

[VorZakone]

I struggle with the concept of violence/porn/gore not affecting someone's mind at all. Just cause it doesn't make you behave badly, surely doesn't mean it'll be the same for somebody else?

Any scientific research on this?

 

[esmufc07]

Horrific read and an awful story.

I'm no legal expert but I found the guilty verdict of Boy B surprising, there was no evidence (other than an off hand conversation a month prior) to suggest he knew what was going to happen.

That said, he must have known something was going to happen, whether or not that was murder though I'm not too sure. I'd have hated to have been a juror on this case.

Once sentenced do the boys have the right to appeal? The case against Boy A seems overwhelming, the case against Boy B less so.

 

[Fortitude]

I wonder will the press ban be lifted on their identities in lieu of them being so de facto public now. I would be interested to hear Boy A's history. Surely there were signs before he raped and murdered a girl

Unfortunately, the patterns are quite generic, and whether we call it psychopathy or not, you could put good money on there being a trail if all the dots were put together. I think with deviants like this, it's more a question of how well the behaviour was concealed or repressed as to what will be found in retrospect unless he documents/reveals the information himself.

 

[Cloud7]

I'm quite confident nobody will actually use the phrase "they're just kids" regarding this murder.

You’d be surprised. Maybe not ‘just kids’ but someone will be around to say ‘they’re kids’ sooner or later, as if that’s supposed to justify or make me feel sympathy for these monsters. It’s happened in previous threads before.

 

[Grinner]

I think easy access to pornography is a big factor in this awful crime. I don't know how you stop it, but it can be really nasty and damaging to young kid's minds.

 

[Fortitude]

I struggle with the concept of violence/porn/gore not affecting someone's mind at all. Just cause it doesn't make you behave badly, surely doesn't mean it'll be the same for somebody else?

Any scientific research on this?

A hell of a lot of people dabble in porn throughout their formative years, just as with drugs, alcohol and other things that could be addictive or lead to deviancy. Those that get consumed with whatever their hook of choice is are more the case study than the materials that got them there, imo.

If porn <insert> triggers you but not others, the question to pose is why, don't you think?

 

[Striker10]

This angers me to no end. She fancied him so might have done something with him. This kid got off on the violent act. It was the violence that turned him on. Completely sick. This kid may have been exposed to violence himself or maybe he's possessed. It's just a disgusting thing. This attitidude that exists in people who lie to each other about celebrating multi cultralism yet this girl was shunned and mocked for daring to be different. What a world we live in. This selfie culture/concept. This social media culture needs to be destroyed. That kid should have been able to go to her parents and it's incredibly said she felt the need to go on the internet to try to 'appear' normal and be accepted. These two kids are as stupid and bad as each other. God will deal with them. There is a big issue in society and it stems mostly from people being cowards and very dishonest.

How people think is important. The world is different if it's a physical reality or if Quantum physics is correct. There is an underlying evil in society. You can't really imagine the inhumanity of so many kids to allow this to happen. What does that tell people about the future generation of people - who absolutely show they don't know what it meant to be human to begin with.

 

[Fortitude]

Isn’t that the point, though? It’s exacerbating something that was there in the first place. Something that might not have got out of hand, otherwise. As @sullydnl already explained, we can’t rule out the possibility that something a mature mind can handle could mess up a developing mind.

I’m in the camp that believes we can’t put the genie back in the bottle. Any kind of ban would be unworkable. We do need to think long and hard about damage limitation though. Whatever that may involve.

I just think another outlet would be used by people like this. Without question, if something deviant is in you, or you can't separate the real world from 'acting' it'll fire you through the rabbit hole in an accelerated manner.

Ted Bundy harped on about porn putting ideas in his head and acquiring new lines of thought (deviancy) via porn, but it has an air of final destination to me in that all roads would have led to the same place eventually, just not as quickly.

Porn and FPS get a lot of blame for honing killers, but I don't think it's the root cause, personally.

 

[sullydnl]

In regards to the porn debate, it should be noted that this case is the most extreme potential example you could put forward. You'd also have to consider the effect it could have on rape, sexual assault or even (on a much less serious level) the quality of sex teenagers have, all areas where the impact would be more regularly seen.

If you're a 15 year old girl having sex with a 15 year old boy, I can easily imagine how the experience could end up being much more negative if the boy has marinated in violent pornography since he was ten. That boy could well mature into a perfect normal adult with a healthy attitude towards sex but at that immature age (and with so little experience of sex) I don't think it's unreasonable to think his ideas around consent or the level of aggression normal in sex could be impacted?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, we regularly see articles (such as the one below) detailing the effect pornography can have on men in terms of things like erectile dysfunction.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/mar/11/young-men-porn-induced-erectile-dysfunction

If we accept that porn can have that sort negative of impact on fully grown adults, is it that much of a stretch to argue the impact could be quite a bit more serious on young teens?

 

[The Taurean]

That was really tough to reaad. Cannot in anyway consider boy A to be charged as minor. The mindset for intent, planning it and executing such a barbaric act and then denial of such act is extremely disturbing behavior. How can one assume rehabilitation in teenage years for such cases help?
Really feel for the girl's family and despair for kids lives.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I just think another outlet would be used by people like this. Without question, if something deviant is in you, or you can't separate the real world from 'acting' it'll fire you through the rabbit hole in an accelerated manner.

Ted Bundy harped on about porn putting ideas in his head and acquiring new lines of thought (deviancy) via porn, but it has an air of final destination to me in that all roads would have led to the same place eventually, just not as quickly.

Porn and FPS get a lot of blame for honing killers, but I don't think it's the root cause, personally.

Ted Bundy is the definition of an unreliable narrator.

 

[Fortitude]

Ted Bundy is the definition of an unreliable narrator.

All psychopaths are, but what are we to do but try to make sense of what they divulge?

For me personally, I think the urges and compulsions come on before puberty and I'd see porn as an accelerant not a cause or trigger in and of itself

 

[Grinner]

I can't think of any positive arguments for young kids watching hardcore porn. It makes the argument for well-thought out, detailed sex education in school more compelling, in my opinion.

 

[RedorDead21]

I find the parents reactions so very disturbing.

 

[Skills]

I find the parents reactions so very disturbing.

Same.

Re: access to porn, there are many things parents can do to stop their kids accessing pornography. The ISPs can lock out websites on request in the same way they would do if a regulation came into place.

You can't compensate for poor parenting though.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I can't think of any positive arguments for young kids watching hardcore porn. It makes the argument for well-thought out, detailed sex education in school more compelling, in my opinion.

I don’t think anyone has made such an argument. The argument against the porn block is that it will be easily circumvented by internet savvy kids and that it amounts to suppression of internet freedom by the government. The block could be the thin end of the wedge regarding control of online content by the government.

 

[diarm]

Rather than government dictated internet controls, there needs to be better systems and education in place for parents to control what their kids can access. Service providers, operating systems and tech companies need to be better at helping parents - especially less tech savvy parents manage this part of their family life.

You can talk about better sex education in schools but kids are still going to do things they think they can get away with. Good parents don't let their kids have unfettered access to the real world so should they have unfettered access to the internet which can obviously be just as dangerous in so many ways.

There are too many sites to simply expect parents to have the bad ones blocked - it should be an opt in system for children. As a parent who pays for the devices and services, they should have complete control over what their kids can access and the same way a kid would come and ask for permission to go out to so and sos house, or go to a particular party or night out, they should ask for access to a particular website, app, forum etc. The parent then has the responsibility of looking into the content and making a decision on whether or not it's suitable.

There should be simple, well presented data available to the bill payer, which breaks down internet usage, app usage, time per site/app/user etc so parents can easily identify trends, habits and problems before they become too serious. This is all possible now for those of us who are tech savvy enough to implement it but it needs to be offered in a well designed, simple and intuitive interface marketed at parents and government needs to invest time and money in advertising and educating adults who are often lightyears behind their children when it comes to understanding the technology and online offerings in their homes.

 

[MrMarcello]

Aye, when I mentioned the moral panic against certain films I was specifically thinking of Child's Play too but in relation to this case:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Capper

In both instances the actual investigators rejected the idea that the film had inspired the violence but it's a lot easier for people to blame a film than to accept that even some kids can carry that capacity for cruelty and violence inside them.

That is the amongst the most horrific things I've read. I hope each of the murderers were subject to brutal assaults while imprisoned. Perhaps killed in prison would have been more befitting.

 

[Red_Aaron]

Sometimes things come along that really shake your belief in humanity. I can never help but to look at us all as a society, a community, hell even as a species and wonder how things like this happen amongst us.

So desperately sad. I'm shook myself so cannot even begin to imagine the pain of all the victims of this horrific crime.

They were all barely even teenagers, what lives have they led to have got here? I've always been a nurture over nature kind of guy but you see this and think maybe evil is a real thing

 

[Rooney24]

Murder by association. Joint enterprise - he knowingly led her to her death; without his part, the murder could not have taken place.

He was more than complicit; he was the catalyst.

Fully agree with this. Without him this crime doesnt happen. The fact that he didnt attack her himself is largely irrelvant for me. I find it hard to have any symapthy for him at all and think he should be treated exactly the same as boy A in terms of punishment.

 

[sullydnl]

Sometimes things come along that really shake your belief in humanity. I can never help but to look at us all as a society, a community, hell even as a species and wonder how things like this happen amongst us.

So desperately sad. I'm shook myself so cannot even begin to imagine the pain of all the victims of this horrific crime.

They were all barely even teenagers, what lives have they led to have got here? I've always been a nurture over nature kind of guy but you see this and think maybe evil is a real thing

That's the thing, as far as I'm aware neither of the killers had ever been in trouble before. To all the world they were normal, pleasant, well-mannered, bright kids from a stable background. I don't think there are any easy things to point to in their lives as causes or warning signs.

Fully agree with this. Without him this crime doesnt happen. The fact that he didnt attack her himself is largely irrelvant for me. I find it hard to have any symapthy for him at all and think he should be treated exactly the same as boy A in terms of punishment.

In terms of punishment, definitely. In terms of the rehabilitation side of their sentence though one would imagine not having taken part in the violent act itself would be an indication of greater potential for success?

Though one also wonders how you could possibly know he didn't take part in the attack. All you could say is that there is no physical evidence that he did.

 

[Adisa]

I don't think you can rehabilitate the first boy.
I also don't understand how porn causes this. I watched a lot of porn in my early to mid teens and I would say I turned out alright. Watching it never gave me violent thoughts. Sexual more like.
Can someone explain?

 

[Shark]

I don't think you can rehabilitate the first boy.
I also don't understand how porn causes this. I watched a lot of porn in my early to mid teens and I would say I turned out alright. Watching it never gave me violent thoughts. Sexual more like.
Can someone explain?

From what I read on RTE, it wasn’t just regular porn. The images included animal torture and child porn.

 

[Adisa]

From what I read on RTE, it wasn’t just regular porn. The images included animal torture and child porn.

Thanks. Think it is important to make that distinction. Imo, you already have a bit of screws loose if you go looking vor violent porn, nevermind child porn.

 

[Red Defence]

In terms of punishment, definitely. In terms of the rehabilitation side of their sentence though one would imagine not having taken part in the violent act itself would be an indication of greater potential for success?

Though one also wonders how you could possibly know he didn't take part in the attack. All you could say is that there is no physical evidence that he did.

What I found very odd was that boy A said very little, even after he had been found out. Didn’t admit to it, didn’t mention boy B and didn’t try to explain anything or testify. Just kept almost silent by all accounts. An explanation of some kind from him would have gone a long way to understanding boy B’s role in all of this.