Ireland left horrified by Ana Kriégel’s murder in a derelict farmhouse

[Sassy Colin]

I am guessing that boy B didn't really think boy A was going to go through with it and expected they would be baiting and taking the piss out of the girl, but no serious violence. That's probably why he took off when his 'mate' started acting crazy.

It's not the fact that these images were on his computer, it's that he actively sought out these images. People like to blame the internet/social media for everything, but boy A was predisposed to, sooner or later, do something unpleasant. Same with the girl who topped herself, a few months back, after looking at self harming images/websites. She was actively seeking out these things and must have been seriously disturbed to want to seek them out, like boy A.

There are no shortage a people in the World who require little encouragement to commit horrific acts against their fellow man (or indeed, themselves), internet or no internet.

You only have to look at fairly recent history to see that, the Holocaust, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, Rawanda, virtually any war situation, terrorism etc etc.

It's too easy to blame everything on the internet.

Millions of people look at all sorts of weird images on the internet and it is only the ones who are predisposed who it has any effect on, 99.9% of the population screw there face up and try to erase the image from their minds.

 

[Tincanalley]

Boy B is a curious case. He made the 'rules' of the homework club. He watched. He went and got the girl to accompany him. He supplied the tape. He may not have been the muscle on the job, but was he the brains? He lied again and again to the investigators. Of course he may be cleared on appeal, but clearly the conviction was secured around the jury becoming convinced that he was far from an innocent bystander.

 

[Tincanalley]

Ana's differentness should have made her treasured, as she was by her parents. She was more mature, and at the same time, more naive. Instead, as she grew in confidence, and experimented, her outsider-ness attracted the anger and derision of others. What of the bullies? Boy B, in his police interview, according to a radio report, talked about her wearing a 'slutty top' to guards. Why do certain people feel so threatened by the other, by anything different?

 

[Fortitude]

From what I read on RTE, it wasn’t just regular porn. The images included animal torture and child porn.

Didn't know any of this, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I wonder how much of a surprise the revelations are to his family.

The torture and kill is the finale. There are months/years of devolution to that point.

 

[diarm]

What I found very odd was that boy A said very little, even after he had been found out. Didn’t admit to it, didn’t mention boy B and didn’t try to explain anything or testify. Just kept almost silent by all accounts. An explanation of some kind from him would have gone a long way to understanding boy B’s role in all of this.

I think I read that Boy A's father was a detective? Likely that he'd instructed him to say nothing at all.

 

[Shark]

Didn't know any of this, but it wouldn't surprise me.

I wonder how much of a surprise the revelations are to his family.

The torture and kill is the finale. There are months/years of devolution to that point.

Here’s a link that goes into some detail, couldn’t find the original one on RTE website.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...he-evidence-the-jury-did-not-hear-931435.html

 

[Fortitude]

Here’s a link that goes into some detail, couldn’t find the original one on RTE website.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/break...he-evidence-the-jury-did-not-hear-931435.html

Thanks.

Will have a read now.

-------

Anyone read that article and agree with the judge in regard to withholding the information that he did?

 

[diarm]

Thanks.

Will have a read now.

-------

Anyone read that article and agree with the judge in regard to withholding the information that he did?

Not really. I don't understand why something happening a few months before the murder isn't relevant to the murder? It's clearly part of the kids development towards the monster he finally became.

If a terrorist had bomb making tips in his internet search history, it would rightly be relevant to his case when being tried for terrorism. If a bank robber was looking up how to bypass alarm systems, that would be relevant too.

How is it prejudicial to include photographs of violent pornography, child porn, torture etc in the trial of a person accused of a violent, sexual murder? It's entirely relevant and serves to prove this wasn't a crime of passion, self defence or a heat of the moment affair. It was a sick, pre-meditated act.

 

[sullydnl]

There's a difference between evidence that someone committed a crime and evidence that someone was a bad person. The latter will also help get a conviction but unfairly so as the accused isn't on trial for being a bad person, they are on trial for a very specific crime. That's why judges have to weigh up the probative value vs the prejudicial value of evidence introduced. It depends on how relevant the examples of them being a bad person are to the specific crime.

In this instance searches for the term "child porn" and "horse porn" were not particularly relevant as the victim was older than the accused and bestiality had nothing to do with the crime. Both would have prejudiced the jury against the child, however.

In terms of the images of violent pornography, the prosecution was looking to have roughly a dozen specific images introduced as evidence. However, those dozen images were selected from a gallery of thousands on the boy's computer. Would a dozen or so months-old handpicked images from a gallery of thousands (many of which displayed no degree of violence) be a fair reflection of the boy's potential mindset in relation to this specific violent crime? I don't think it's hard to see why the judge decided it wouldn't be.

 

[diarm]

There's a difference between evidence that someone committed a crime and evidence that someone was a bad person. The latter will also help get a conviction but unfairly so as the accused isn't on trial for being a bad person, they are on trial for a very specific crime. That's why judges have to weigh up the probative value vs the prejudicial value of evidence introduced. It depends on how relevant the examples of them being a bad person are to the specific crime.

In this instance searches for the term "child porn" and "horse porn" were not particularly relevant as the victim was older than the accused and bestiality had nothing to do with the crime. Both would have prejudiced the jury against the child, however.

In terms of the images of violent pornography, the prosecution was looking to have roughly a dozen specific images introduced as evidence. However, those dozen images were selected from a gallery of thousands on the boy's computer. Would a dozen or so months-old handpicked images from a gallery of thousands (many of which displayed no degree of violence) be a fair reflection of the boy's potential mindset in relation to this specific violent crime? I don't think it's hard to see why the judge decided it wouldn't be.

Fair points. I'd agree with you on the child and animal porn searches but not on the dozen specific images. It sounds like some of those were too similar to the crime not to be relevant. The video of them hitting a concrete block with a stick when there was a concrete block and a stick involved in the murder, the pictures of the attacker wearing a similar mask to the one used during the murder. These are surely relevant evidence?

 

[sullydnl]

Fair points. I'd agree with you on the child and animal porn searches but not on the dozen specific images. It sounds like some of those were too similar to the crime not to be relevant. The video of them hitting a concrete block with a stick when there was a concrete block and a stick involved in the murder, the pictures of the attacker wearing a similar mask to the one used during the murder. These are surely relevant evidence?

It's less about whether it's relevant and more whether it's relevant enough vs how prejudicial it could be.

Take the bold for example. It's relevant, sure, but it's ultimately still just two kids hitting a piece of concrete with a stick, essentially an utterly harmless thing. In and of itself the footage isn't damning, nor does it serve particularly strong evidential value. The jury don't need video evidence to believe that kids could hit an inanimate object with a stick and seeing kids hit an inanimate object with a stick doesn't particularly help them discern whether they could do the same to an actual person.

However, in the context of the courtroom of this particular case with everything they know about the way the victim died, watching footage of the kids beating something with a stick would immediately conjure very obvious images in the jury's mind. Which, relative to the value of the evidence itself, becomes prejudicial.

That video evidence would less be telling the jury something they ought to know and more inviting the jury to imagine the accused beating the victim to death. If it had been more relevant to a potential murder (say if the kids had seemed like they were pretending to beat a person when they were hitting the block) then the balance shifts towards it being worth showing the jury.

There's no right answer as such though, it's a judgment call on the judge's part.

 

[Chairman Woodie]

Boy A and Boy B to be sentenced today for the murder of 14 year-old girl, Ana Kriegel.

Irish Times

 

[Eire Red United]

Rough one. Hopefully justice will be done and poor Anna’s family can get some sort of closure.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

The internet has a lot to answer for, especially the availability of porn and certain forums and websites. Adults and parents on a whole do not know what is so easily accessible to kids these days and what a lot of "kids" are into. You put the internet as it is today to someone 20 years ago and they would be absolutely horrified, we are all so passive to it now its scary.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Fair sentencing overall I think but neither boy should retain anonymity when they're released imo.

 

[Brophs]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Fair sentencing overall I think but neither boy should retain anonymity when they're released imo.

Hard call, do you believe they can be rehabilitated?

 

[Massive Spanner]

Hard call, do you believe they can be rehabilitated?

I'm not sure, I don't really know enough about psychology to say. Though clearly Boy A showed a lot of the same characteristics as serial killers do when they're younger and I don't recall any of them being rehabilitated.

Boy B.. at this stage I'm not even sure if he was any better than Boy A. It sounds like he basically masterminded the whole thing and was the far trickier of the two during interrogations and far less remorseful, basically pleading his innocence throughout.

Neither look like they can be rehabilitated from where I'm sitting based on the info we have, but again, I don't know nearly enough about this shit.!

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

I'm not sure, I don't really know enough about psychology to say. Though clearly Boy A showed a lot of the same characteristics as serial killers do when they're younger and I don't recall any of them being rehabilitated.

Boy B.. at this stage I'm not even sure if he was any better than Boy A. It sounds like he basically masterminded the whole thing and was the far trickier of the two during interrogations and far less remorseful, basically pleading his innocence throughout.

Neither look like they can be rehabilitated from where I'm sitting based on the info we have, but again, I don't know nearly enough about this shit.!

Yeah I totally agree, but if there is any chance of rehabilitation they need anonymity as their life will be pointless without it. Its the old punishment or rehabilitation argument, what they did is abhorrent but unless they are to be locked up forever they will be back in society and need to be handled.

 

[Shane88]

Reviews after a decade. Rotten little bastards will be out in their mid-20s with new identities.

There simply should be no way back for a crime that heinous. Feck the sentencing in this country.

 

[Prometheus]

Boy B.. at this stage I'm not even sure if he was any better than Boy A. It sounds like he basically masterminded the whole thing and was the far trickier of the two during interrogations and far less remorseful, basically pleading his innocence throughout.

So I'm not the only one left with this impression. He watched the whole thing; her getting sexually assaulted up to the point where she took her last breath, from what he told his doctor.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

I am guessing that boy B didn't really think boy A was going to go through with it and expected they would be baiting and taking the piss out of the girl, but no serious violence. That's probably why he took off when his 'mate' started acting crazy.

It's not the fact that these images were on his computer, it's that he actively sought out these images. People like to blame the internet/social media for everything, but boy A was predisposed to, sooner or later, do something unpleasant. Same with the girl who topped herself, a few months back, after looking at self harming images/websites. She was actively seeking out these things and must have been seriously disturbed to want to seek them out, like boy A.

There are no shortage a people in the World who require little encouragement to commit horrific acts against their fellow man (or indeed, themselves), internet or no internet.

You only have to look at fairly recent history to see that, the Holocaust, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, Rawanda, virtually any war situation, terrorism etc etc.

It's too easy to blame everything on the internet.

Millions of people look at all sorts of weird images on the internet and it is only the ones who are predisposed who it has any effect on, 99.9% of the population screw there face up and try to erase the image from their minds.

I'm sorry I cant agree with you there, these were, like it or not, kids who had easy access to hard ore violent porn from clearly a young age you honestly don't think that had anything to do with this? Its not just the images either its the forums, websites, social media that glorify this kind of thing, kids talking to other kids about it. The internet is a good thing but its far, far to out of control and needs to be policed much more.

You have no idea the number of kids that seek out these images and its not soley because they are predisposed to it they are curious, they find it and then get pulled into it. Are you telling me when you were younger you didn't try and have a sneaky look at page 3? Problem is now its much easier to access basically any porn you want.

And you are wrong about 99.9% screw there face up, the more you look at stuff the more desensitised to it you get, its normalised, its why porn is influencing sex and relationships more and more... again more in younger people, go on tumbler, instagram, FB etc and look up DDLG / BDSM and see how many people are following the feeds and then look at the age groups following it.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Considering the state of the Bulger killers after being institutionalised for so many years, there is no way these boys are going to end up in any way normally adjusted. They have some severe psychological issues and it is unlikely they will ever be 'normal'.

Those saying this tragic murder is all the fault of the internet, the internet wasn't around when James Bulger was murdered. These boys were pre-disposed to commit horrific acts, sooner or later, internet or no internet. This sort of thing does not happen everyday.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Considering the state of the Bulger killers after being institutionalised for so many years, there is no way these boys are going to end up in any way normally adjusted. They have some severe psychological issues and it is unlikely they will ever be 'normal'.

Those saying this tragic murder is all the fault of the internet, the internet wasn't around when James Bulger was murdered. These boys were pre-disposed to commit horrific acts, sooner or later, internet or no internet. This sort of thing does not happen everyday.

Its not all the internet's fault no, but do you think the internet isn't influencing kids?

 

[Grinner]

There's no excusing any of what happened. I don't see how they could not know that what they were doing was wrong.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Hard call, do you believe they can be rehabilitated?

Nope. It was an cold blooded premeditated act. They knew very well what they were doing.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Nope. It was an cold blooded premeditated act. They knew very well what they were doing.

I have absolutely no doubt they knew exactly what they were doing and probably had each stage planned to a tee, which make the whole thing even harder to stomach. So do we just keep them looked up for the next 60-70 years?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

So do we just keep them looked up for the next 60-70 years?

Probably. I doubt death penalty will gain much traction.

 

[utdalltheway]

I have absolutely no doubt they knew exactly what they were doing and probably had each stage planned to a tee, which make the whole thing even harder to stomach. So do we just keep them looked up for the next 60-70 years?

some people just shouldn't be allowed in the general population.
We all knew a few bad eggs when we were coming up; it's fair to say that some of them are irredeemable. They're evil fcukers and no amount of praying or wishing will make them better.

 

[sullydnl]

I was just reading about this awful murder, having read yesterday of another murder carried out by two 13-year-old boys in the USA some years ago - they bludgeoned to death the great-grandmother of one of the boys, just to steal $150 and a few bits of jewellery.

Those boys were tried as adults (like this case in Ireland, the murder was planned in advance and weapons were brought to the house), and both received life sentences with minimum terms of over 30 years. They may never be released, of course - we all know what the criminal justice system can be like in the USA.

That sentence seems excessive, as they were children (albeit dangerous ones). In this case in Ireland, you'd hope the sentence is proportionate to the terrible crime.

Just quoting this post in light of the sentences handed out today. Two very different justice systems handing out two very different sentences, though one certainly hopes the Irish approach is the more enlightened one.

Being reminded of the details of this case again though, it's impossible to quantify the appropriate punishment because there simply isn't one. A crime like this is beyond the capacity of any justice system to address or even understand. All they can do is proceed as reason dictates, knowing it won't be enough.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

They should throw away the key, sick little feckers are beyond help.

 

[SirAF]

They should throw away the key, sick little feckers are beyond help.

Throw the book at them. I had not heard about this case before this thread was bumped. Sickening

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Throw the book at them. I had not heard about this case before this thread was bumped. Sickening

Heartbreaking, stomach churning evil of the highest order
Sick little bastards

 

[Grinner]

I think anytime the thought of releasing them comes up people should try to imagine what that poor girl's last moments alive were like.

 

[Adzzz]

Many parallels drawn with the murder of Jamie Bulger, pre-internet age, there was also a case strikingly similar in the victorian days in Stockport. The difference is both of those cases picked on someone younger and of the same gender.

 

[Grinner]

Bulger killing was blamed on that Chucky film. This one is blamed on nasty internet porn. I think that porn is way more destructive to young minds than daft horror films.

 

[sullydnl]

Bulger killing was blamed on that Chucky film. This one is blamed on nasty internet porn. I think that porn is way more destructive to young minds than daft horror films.

From what I've read most research on the effects of porn would seem to agree with you. Obviously it would be silly to actually blame a crime like this on porn but I wouldn't dismiss it as a factor in the way I would, say, the video games kids play.

 

[Jippy]

Its not all the internet's fault no, but do you think the internet isn't influencing kids?

Yes of course it is, but awful murders obviously still occurred long before the internet.
Given how shocking this case has been, it's questionable whether the prevalence of the internet has increased the number of such crimes. That would be an interesting piece of research, albeit proving a definitive causal link would no doubt be tricky.

 

[100]

Going from this, it seems like every possible box was ticked.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriégel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570?mode=amp

That's an incredible and interesting read. The bit about Ana at the end is very moving.

 

[Oldyella]

That's an incredible and interesting read. The bit about Ana at the end is very moving.

Yeah, that final section on Ana after such a detailed breakdown is as you say very moving. And her parents showed more grace than I ever could during that trial.