Irish Politics

[caid]

If they unceremoniously kicked Gerry Adams to the curb i'd consider voting for SF.
Actually i probably wouldn't, the idea of them being in charge of anything terrifies me.
And its hard to have much faith in the moral backbone of anyone who's currently part of the party.

I'll probably vote FG when the elections show up. I hate the idea of doing it but its just preferable to the alternative atm.

It would nearly make a lad want to sell up, pack his bags and just get the feck out of this country.

Thought the same many times myself but the idea of giving my home up to shit stains like those in government or
monsters like those working in that care home just feels completely wrong.
(How do they all congregate like that anyway? You'd think one would say 'this is a bit fecked, i should tell someone')

 

[Eyepopper]

On the Sinners - Sinn Fein have the exact same history, tied to the gun as both, our main parties, and the damage to the island line you used is bewildering. This is a long term 'damaged' island and while SF were hugely involved in the process it's slightly disingenuous to blame them. The reason they grew strong both in the early 1900's and more recently was because there they stood facing atrocities by the British Military. Context is very important lest one was to sound biased.

Well thats not the case though is it? FF & FG put away their guns a long time ago, SF were murdering people in Ireland, north and south up to as recently as the 90's and still lie about their operations and involvement...

As they broaden their scope they are going to gain in popularity, and in my opinion deserve a chance.

As for nobody going into power with them, it's a nonsense, of course they will jump at the chance for power.

This is in my opinion only the start of a process that will see SF become the main party, and they will be diluted by large numbers joining and more importantly I see the centre right elements of FF and FG joining at some point and the lefties from those parties joining a SF with a wider scope than they are now perceived to have. I think it will be a much healthier political arena with the right subjucts being discussed.

Say what you will about Sinn Fein, they are a player in what is the most open, informed, frank and relevant political dialogue I have witnessed in the mainstream media.

My opinion is that they will broaded their support by continuing to spout populist policies that aren't possible and which I can't honestly believe they believe themselves.

If they do get into government I expect them to abandon pretty much all of them and watch the swell of support return to FF, FG & Labour.

Lets not forget playing silly buggers with the countries parliament for a few days to divert attention from their own troubles and strife.

And on the sexual abuse, it's a legal matter and with evidence all involved should be punished, but the reality is that those calling for legal action now weren't quite so vociferous when it was the clergy and not SF. The idea that sexual abuse can be jaundiced by one's politics is truly sickening. And that is levelled at all of them.

I find the idea of protecting rapists a bit more sickening tbh, or screaming as they did for the Church to be held to account while hiding their own little secret... but having been one of the ones shouting loudest about the catholic church over the years, hopefully I'm not gonna be accused of being political. Was Mary Lou being political when she called for no one to escape the glare of the authorities when it comes to sex abuse in the case of the catholic church in 2009? Seems so, but hey, it was a popular sound bite. Things like raping children are a little more complicated when SF are found to be involved, obviously.

They talk out of both sides of their mouth on everything, apart from Gerry ever having been in the IRA of course, he definitely wasn't, never murdered anyone or ordered the murder of anyone and he's definitely not being kept on the scene, despite being a bit of a millstone round their necks, because of the influence he maintains within the criminal republican community... no siree, Sinn Fein don't know any criminals, shur Gerrys on twitter with a teddybear.

I wonder how the wealth tax proposal went down at the $500 dollar a plate 'fund raising' night Gerry and Pierce attended in new york last month. Quarter of a million in one night, wow, and not a penny can be spent in the republic - probably using it to help victims of child sex abuse.... same dinner in fact where he compared himself to Michael Collins and said in Collins day he dealt with negative press by holding the editor of the independent at gunpoint while his men destroyed the printing presses.

 

[golden_blunder]

I would argue it is, as they are the only left wing party in the country. But I do agree that the left wing vote falls on them by default.

We all rightly giggle at Sinead but that is a big thing for them, the middle classes baulk at the Sinners, but people like Sinead could do a lot to make it 'OK' to vote SF.

Sinead is like Roy Keane, you just wonder what she will say out of turn. Not cut out for politics IMHO

 

[moses]

Sinead is like Roy Keane, you just wonder what she will say out of turn. Not cut out for politics IMHO

Ha, pretty much bang on.

 

[moses]

Well thats not the case though is it? FF & FG put away their guns a long time ago, SF were murdering people in Ireland, north and south up to as recently as the 90's and still lie about their operations and involvement...

.

No, if you want to be pedantic, they are a lot longer from the use of the gun than our first parliament were when they sat. The very first Dail had a table at the door for firearms to be left on and collected after the session. Not even 100 years ago, but that is our country, and that is the context of politics on this island. We were a colony that gained independence and sank into civil war.

On the rest re empty policy, I don't disagree, but they do deserve a chance as they seem to echo the zeitgiest, and say what you will about populism, they have been socialists long before it became politically fashionablle.

And for protecting rapists being disgusting and no way acceptable in politics, yes I agree, and the shameful thing is all our main parties are guity of it now; an Irish illness if you will.

 

[Wonder Pigeon]

On the lighter side, a story from yesterday's water protests.

 

[moses]

Hehe.

 

[golden_blunder]

I feel the government missed a trick yesterday, should have used irony and turned the water canons on the protestors. That would have been mighty Craic

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Jaysus, this makes depressing viewing.

Enjoy!

 

[caid]

Jaysus, this makes depressing viewing.

Enjoy!

Thanks for sharing ... I think?
Is Ireland worse than most for corruption and incompetence?
Or is this just standard fare for most?
I feel pretty cynical about the situation - not a helpful way to react but 'feck it i dont care anymore' pretty much sums up my feelings on most aspects of that film.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thanks for sharing ... I think?
Is Ireland worse than most for corruption and incompetence?
Or is this just standard fare for most?
I feel pretty cynical about the situation - not a helpful way to react but 'feck it i dont care anymore' pretty much sums up my feelings on most aspects of that film.

My gut feel is that we're definitely worse. A nation of cute hoors, ruled by the politicians they deserve.

A toss up between how much of our woes are down to corruption and how much down to incompetence. Definitely a combination of the two. Having worked in both Ireland and the UK I've definitely seen much more incompetence - at scarily high levels - in Ireland than in the UK.

 

[caid]

My gut feel is that we're definitely worse. A nation of cute hoors, ruled by the politicians they deserve.

A toss up between how much of our woes are down to corruption and how much down to incompetence. Definitely a combination of the two. Having worked in both Ireland and the UK I've definitely seen much more incompetence - at scarily high levels - in Ireland than in the UK.

Maybe the incompetence is mixed by industry. Cant say i've seen too much personally.
But then i haven't worked elsewhere, maybe what i consider 'not much' is a lot relative to elsewhere.

I think most people work their balls off. They keep their head down do their job and work pretty long ass hours with commute times.
I do think a lot of the time the harder working person will be passed up for promotion by the know nothing bullshitter though.
The 'fair play to him' attitude does piss me off when someone cheats the system - i think that attitude has a lot to answer for.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Maybe the incompetence is mixed by industry. Cant say i've seen too much personally.
But then i haven't worked elsewhere, maybe what i consider 'not much' is a lot relative to elsewhere.

I think that's it (without being patronising, I hope?)

I think most people work their balls off. They keep their head down do their job and work pretty long ass hours with commute times.
I do think a lot of the time the harder working person will be passed up for promotion by the know nothing bullshitter though.
The 'fair play to him' attitude does piss me off when someone cheats the system - i think that attitude has a lot to answer for.

Irish business (and politics) seems to be much more about who you know and the gift of the gab than actual competence. Didn't notice it at all before I spent 10 years overseas but - since coming back - I've been horrified at the cluelessness of very senior Irish business men and women. As a nation, we're much more likely to be good company than the English but, boy oh boy, are we shit at our jobs compared to them. The bit in bold is spot on and the main reason behind this IMO.

We're even less good at being corrupt, because we keep getting caught. Despite the incompetence of the people trying to weed it out.

On that cheery note, Merry Christmas!

 

[dirtygringo]

Ireland is no more or less corrupt than most Catholic countries. Which is to say it reeks of it. Blame the Pope.

 

[caid]

I think that's it (without being patronising, I hope?)

No not at all. I recognise its not a subject i have much knowledge of.

Irish business (and politics) seems to be much more about who you know and the gift of the gab than actual competence. Didn't notice it at all before I spent 10 years overseas but - since coming back - I've been horrified at the cluelessness of very senior Irish business men and women. As a nation, we're much more likely to be good company than the English but, boy oh boy, are we shit at our jobs compared to them. The second sentence I bolded is spot on and the main reason behind this IMO.

Yeah Im not even gong to try and defend management both senior and junior in this country.
I'd say about 1/4 of the people i've worked for over the years didn't have a spectacular, crippling weakness that made them hopeless at their job.
Most as you say are just bluffers and bullshitters that you do your best to work around.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

On corruption:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/europeanrights-body-warns-of-corrupt-ireland-298902.html

 

[Eyepopper]

Remember those guys who murdered an Irish policeman (Jerry McCabe) in 1996 while trying to rob and Irish post office van?

Those guys who Sinn Fein, even though they denied any responsibility or involvement in - even after they were convicted - campaigned, successfully, to have released early as part of the Good Friday agreement?

Those guys who Martin Ferris (SF TD) personally collected from prison when they were released in 2009?

The same guys who very nearly got away with the murder because key witnesses refused to give evidence following intimidation by someone.

One of them stabbed their wife over Xmas,
http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ller-held-after-wife-is-stabbed-30861966.html

......allegedly.....

no comment from SF on the incident, it probably wasn't him or something.

 

[Reds-of-Ulster]

Remember those guys who murdered an Irish policeman (Jerry McCabe) in 1996 while trying to rob and Irish post office van?

Those guys who Sinn Fein, even though they denied any responsibility or involvement in - even after they were convicted - campaigned, successfully, to have released early as part of the Good Friday agreement?

Those guys who Martin Ferris (SF TD) personally collected from prison when they were released in 2009?

The same guys who very nearly got away with the murder because key witnesses refused to give evidence following intimidation by someone.

One of them stabbed their wife over Xmas,
http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ller-held-after-wife-is-stabbed-30861966.html

......allegedly.....

no comment from SF on the incident, it probably wasn't him or something.

His wife being a former SF councillor.

 

[spontaneus1]

Surprised this thread hasn't been bumped after the events of today.

 

[sullydnl]

Indeed, accusations of political policing and all....

 

[Anderson's Cat]

Love Uslter march happening in Dublin soon. That will only go well

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/love-ulster-march-in-dublin-gets-goahead-30979343.html

 

[JakeC]

Love Uslter march happening in Dublin soon. That will only go well

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/love-ulster-march-in-dublin-gets-goahead-30979343.html

Should be completely ignored. Hopefully Sinn Fein will again urge their supporters to let the march pass without incident, and maybe the SWP will say that a riot should be avoided this time.

Frazer is a laughing stock in East Belfast, never mind Dublin.

 

[Anderson's Cat]

Should be completely ignored. Hopefully Sinn Fein will again urge their supporters to let the march pass without incident, and maybe the SWP will say that a riot should be avoided this time.

Frazer is a laughing stock in East Belfast, never mind Dublin.

I don't know much about him but it sounds like he's shit stirring and looking for a riot. And the buffoons in the Garda siochana are allowing it.

 

[JakeC]

I don't know much about him but it sounds like he's shit stirring and looking for a riot. And the buffoons in the Garda siochana are allowing it.

This is the same man who complained that Irish flags were being flown outside a school in Belfast before being told it's an Italian flag that's there to mark the Giro D'Italia.

The same man who complained to the BBC that someone was wearing a GAA jersey in Eastenders.

Have a look at the facebook page 'Loyalists against Democracy' it's a satire of the extremist elements in loyalist culture.

 

[JakeC]

The 20 deputies that voted in favor of Clare Dalys bill that would allow for the termination of pregnancies in the case of a fatal fetal abnormality.

John Halligan would have voted for it, but he was absent as his father has died recently.

 

[Eyepopper]

19 people and counting arrested now for the incident with Joan Burton.

I think those involved in that form of protest are mainly just the usual sort out for a bit of trouble and are doing more harm than good to their cause, but this is ridiculous. Its clearly politically motivated, designed to present the protesters are extremists and discourage others from getting involved.

Seriously dodgy stuff.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

19 people and counting arrested now for the incident with Joan Burton.

I think those involved in that form of protest are mainly just the usual sort out for a bit of trouble and are doing more harm than good to their cause, but this is ridiculous. Its clearly politically motivated, designed to present the protesters are extremists and discourage others from getting involved.

Seriously dodgy stuff.

If that's true, then it's fecking idiotic. It's only going to fire up the protesters, if anything. As well as give them ammunition to use in their protests.

Of course, most politicians in this country are reknowned idiots. So you can't rule out the possibility that it was politically motivated. I'm inclined to think that what happened was someone at a local level, trying to curry favour with the big cheeses by leaning on the guards to get out there and make arrests, then it got out of hand. Or possibly even a member of the guards who has political aspirations. It's all a bit grim anyway.

 

[Eyepopper]

If that's true, then it's fecking idiotic. It's only going to fire up the protesters, if anything. As well as give them ammunition to use in their protests.

Of course, most politicians in this country are reknowned idiots. So you can't rule out the possibility that it was politically motivated. I'm inclined to think that what happened was someone at a local level, trying to curry favour with the big cheeses by leaning on the guards to get out there and make arrests, then it got out of hand. Or possibly even a member of the guards who has political aspirations. It's all a bit grim anyway.

When you factor in the Shatter, whistleblower and GSOC affairs I think it paints a very suspect picture of this governments relationship with the police.

On the radio yesterday they were disputing that it was political policing, Matt Cooper said 'do you really think Enda Kenny is picking up the phone to the commissioner and talking to her about arresting teenagers in Tallaght?' - honestly, I'd say that's entirely likely, maybe not directly I doubt he's that stupid. But look at how the former commissioner was dispatched - a government official visited him, at home, one evening and next morning he resigns.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

When you factor in the Shatter, whistleblower and GSOC affairs I think it paints a very suspect picture of this governments relationship with the police.

On the radio yesterday they were disputing that it was political policing, Matt Cooper said 'do you really think Enda Kenny is picking up the phone to the commissioner and talking to her about arresting teenagers in Tallaght?' - honestly, I'd say that's entirely likely, maybe not directly I doubt he's that stupid. But look at how the former commissioner was dispatched - a government official visited him, at home, one evening and next morning he resigns.

I just don't see any upside to the government of doing this. Like I said, I probably shouldn't underestimate their capacity for stupidity but - if they really want to shut down dissent and protest - it's a monumentally stupid way to do it. Apart from anything else, all the arrests were for doing something that most rational people felt was a bit out of order anyway. Did you see Paul Murphy saying it would have still been a "peaceful protest" to keep Bruton trapped in her car for up to 12 hours? Wtf?

Obviously, the gardai response is crass and completely over the top but it's not going to stop anyone with any balls whatsoever from continuing with legitimate peaceful protest. Certainly won't put off near enough people to make all this bad press (and concession of the moral highground) worthwhile. Can't get my head around anyone in the government with an ounce of guile thinking this was a good idea. And even though I think a lot of politicians are stupid, there's no denying they're cute hoors too.

 

[Eyepopper]

I just don't see any upside to the government of doing this. Like I said, I probably shouldn't underestimate their capacity for stupidity but - if they really want to shut down dissent and protest - it's a monumentally stupid way to do it. Apart from anything else, all the arrests were for doing something that most rational people felt was a bit out of order anyway. Did you see Paul Murphy saying it would have still been a "peaceful protest" to keep Bruton trapped in her car for up to 12 hours? Wtf?

Obviously, the gardai response is crass and completely over the top but it's not going to stop anyone with any balls whatsoever from continuing with legitimate peaceful protest. Certainly won't put off near enough people to make all this bad press (and concession of the moral highground) worthwhile. Can't get my head around anyone in the government with an ounce of guile thinking this was a good idea.

Like you say, I think most don't agree with what happened and I think Paul Murphy is primarily a self publicist, but in a way that works - who is going to complain?

I think the arrests will impact numbers, particularly in Dublin but probably not by a significant percentage. That said, 2 or 3 of those arrested are teenagers - I can see a lot of parents not letting their teenagers attend these demos (particularly if organised by the likes of PM), and I can imagine a number wont attend if there's a chance it will turn into what we have seen with Burton and more recently about Michael D.

In terms coverage, and this is where damage to the cause comes in, most of the reporting relating to Irish water is now about arrests, the means of protestor, very little about the actual issue itself - which again I think plays right into the governments hands.

Depending on charges and prosecutions, bail conditions could also be imposed restricting peoples activity - but thats gettting into conspiracy theories. Overall I would like to know who made the decision to divert, what must be, significant resources to investigate and arrest these 19 people, particularly if no, or only very minor, charges are brought.

This is at a time when the police force in the country is on its knees due to lack of resources. I know first hand stories of cases not being investigated adequately or at all, in order to pursue charges. Overtime has also been slashed so it would be interesting to know how many of the guards that carried out the dawn raids were on overtime.

By behaving like idiots the protesters play into the governments hands because it allows them to engage on their own terms and I think any negative publicity regarding protests or protesters suits them down to the ground.

Don't underestimate their stupidity either. The government chief whip took exception to a TD saying Joan had called out 'the dogs', and he demanded that she not be allowed leave the dail until she apologised - in a debate about the rights and wrongs of keeping people prisoner.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Like you say, I think most don't agree with what happened and I think Paul Murphy is primarily a self publicist, but in a way that works - who is going to complain?

I think the arrests will impact numbers, particularly in Dublin but probably not by a significant percentage. That said, 2 or 3 of those arrested are teenagers - I can see a lot of parents not letting their teenagers attend these demos (particularly if organised by the likes of PM), and I can imagine a number wont attend if there's a chance it will turn into what we have seen with Burton and more recently about Michael D.

In terms coverage, and this is where damage to the cause comes in, most of the reporting relating to Irish water is now about arrests, the means of protestor, very little about the actual issue itself - which again I think plays right into the governments hands.

Depending on charges and prosecutions, bail conditions could also be imposed restricting peoples activity - but thats gettting into conspiracy theories. Overall I would like to know who made the decision to divert, what must be, significant resources to investigate and arrest these 19 people, particularly if no, or only very minor, charges are brought.

This is at a time when the police force in the country is on its knees due to lack of resources. I know first hand stories of cases not being investigated adequately or at all, in order to pursue charges. Overtime has also been slashed so it would be interesting to know how many of the guards that carried out the dawn raids were on overtime.

By behaving like idiots the protesters play into the governments hands because it allows them to engage on their own terms and I think any negative publicity regarding protests or protesters suits them down to the ground.

Don't underestimate their stupidity either. The government chief whip took exception to a TD saying Joan had called out 'the dogs', and he demanded that she not be allowed leave the dail until she apologised - in a debate about the rights and wrongs of keeping people prisoner.

Yeah, you make some good points.

I'm still inclined to think it's more likely to be down to some gombeen getting ahead of himself, rather than a carefully orchestrated plan orchestrated from the very top but that's based mainly on a gut feeling.

 

[Eyepopper]

Yeah, you make some good points.

I'm still inclined to think it's more likely to be down to some gombeen getting ahead of himself, rather than a carefully orchestrated plan orchestrated from the very top but that's based mainly on a gut feeling.

Hpefully, but I dunno, it stinks of interference to me.

Here's what they all got so upset about yesterday... you might want to reexamine how stupid you think they are once you see the footage.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0212/679688-leaders-questions/

I have zero time for Coppinger btw but I do think she at least makes some points that need to be answered.

 

[Eyepopper]

.. and lets not forget Clare Daly (again who I have little time for) being arrested and taken into custody on suspicion of drink driving and having it reported throughout the countries press (even though she passed the tests and faced no charges).

No big deal really, if it hadn't been at the precise time that she, Mick Wallace and Ming were about to present their dossier on the whistleblowers and corruption.

Or Shatter publicly revealing that Wallace had been caught using a phone while driving.

Or Sean Barrett seemingly choosing what is and isn't debated in the Dail based on his parties agenda.

Where there's smoke.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Hpefully, but I dunno, it stinks of interference to me.

Here's what they all got so upset about yesterday... you might want to reexamine how stupid you think they are once you see the footage.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0212/679688-leaders-questions/

I have zero time for Coppinger btw but I do think she at least makes some points that need to be answered.

Ms Coppinger said the expression she used was "call off the dogs of war" on the people of Jobstown, to which Mr Kehoe said members of his family were gardaí and was she referring to his family as dogs?

playground crap, it really is.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe that corruption is rife in Ireland. At every level. I'm just not convinced that this particular incident is evidence of same. Could be wrong though.

 

[sullydnl]

I really can't imagine direct political interference from the government here, it would be way too big a risk for zero gain. The last thing they needed was for Murphy to get even more attention....

I can easily believe that some amateur politician in the guards decided to make it happen though. After all, these protestors have accused the guards of heavy handedness and excessive force in the past. I can't imagine there's much love lost there...

Essentially: if you irritate the guards then they're fully capable of making the decision to target you on their own.

 

[Eyepopper]

I really can't imagine direct political interference from the government here, it would be way too big a risk for zero gain.

Like say a minister for justice disclosing confidential police information on a TV show to discredit a political rival?

It's very clear that Shatter and Callaghan were in cahoots when the GSOC and whistleblower affairs were going on, it was obvious and put up with until it went beyond the point of being ridiculous.

As I say, if no charges are brought, serious questions need to be answered.

 

[Eyepopper]

playground crap, it really is.

Paul Kehoe couldn't tie his shoes unless he was shown how. A complete idiot and political yes man.

Who was found to have been fiddling his expenses too.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Like say a minister for justice disclosing confidential police information on a TV show to discredit a political rival?

It's very clear that Shatter and Callaghan were in cahoots when the GSOC and whistleblower affairs were going on, it was obvious and put up with until it went beyond the point of being ridiculous.

As I say, if no charges are brought, serious questions need to be answered.

That's for a very clear and significant gain, though.

 

[sullydnl]

Like say a minister for justice disclosing confidential police information on a TV show to discredit a political rival?

It's very clear that Shatter and Callaghan were in cahoots when the GSOC and whistleblower affairs were going on, it was obvious and put up with until it went beyond the point of being ridiculous.

As I say, if no charges are brought, serious questions need to be answered.

Very different context though in that there's now a massive amount of negative attention on the Gardaí and their relationship with the government.

If I was a politician I'd want to stay as far away from the guards as I could right now, nevermind involving them in something that would almost certainly bring down my government if it came out.

I certainly wouldn't take that risk just so I could make a martyr out of Paul Murphy. Though maybe they are that stupid, who knows?

 

[Count Orduck]

I watched that RTE drama miniseries a few weeks back on Haughey, "Charlie". I know it was massively dramatised, but some of the stuff those Irish politicans got up to! Wouldn't be surprised if they were still at it.