Irish Politics

RexHamilton

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Just to show how awful this argument is, its the 1700's and I turn to you and say - ''I'm pretty sure the child labour we have in Ireland is awful and needs to go'' and then you say - ''Are there problems in Ireland at the minute? Of course there are. We shouldn't have the number of homeless that we do, we shouldn't have small children dying in factories and house prices are far too high the bloody Brits are everywhere in general. But point to a country in the world where there are no problems? Where there is no child labour ? Where there isn't the British empire ? Where 100% of the people are utterly content with their lot. It doesn't happen. There are no Utopias!''
Nonsense argument. There are around 10,000 people homeless in Ireland and it's a national disgrace. Never once did I say it's acceptable. It's a problem, it needs to be solved. Reading back over what I wrote, I can see how it came across that I was trivialising the homeless crisis. I wasn't. I was acknowledging that it's a genuine issue. We can both be horrified by the homeless crisis and annoyed by people who always feel entitled to more at the same time. There are not utopias was a poor choice of phrase, when talking about homelessness, that was directed at those who are doing ok, but feel entitled to more. Having engaged with lots of my friends in discussions about the election over the past few weeks, I met a few who wanted the homeless crisis solved, the health service reformed, they want a higher miniumum wage, they want USC abolished, they want lower taxes and the thresholds for higher tax brackets raised and so much more. You could make an argument for each and every one of those things, absolutely, but where is the money to pay for all of this supposed to come from?


You're argument is nothing but a nihilistic defence of the current state of things. If you actually care about homelessness, health services etc then you wouldn't be talking about utopias and slagging off people on the dole. Again it can't be understated that ''there is no Utopian's argument '' has been used to stop every gain we take for granted, be it the right for working men and women to vote, the american civil rights movement, LGBTQ rights, ending slavery, child labour, fighting against colonialism etc etc etc.
As I said above the "There are no Utopias" was directed at the people who have, but want more. Not directed at the homeless or the people on trollies. As for "slagging off people on the dole", I argued against people that feel they are entitled to everything, both working people and people on social welfare, but of course ignore that and say I'm "slagging off people on the dole".
 

sullydnl

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As with those criticising the youngest cohort for not being aware of the IRA's past, focusing on the younger group there rather misses the key point.

Just as Sinn Fein were the most popular party with every age group under 65, the majority of every age group under 65 apparently want a UI referendum within five years. That's a much broader shift.
 

DJ Jeff

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As with those criticising the youngest cohort for not being aware of the IRA's past, focusing on the younger group there rather misses the key point.

Just as Sinn Fein were the most popular party with every age group under 65, the majority of every age group under 65 apparently want a UI referendum within five years. That's a much broader shift.
Yeah, fair point. Speaking as a young person in the youngest bracket who has had a lot of mates turned into mad Wolfe Tones singing Shinners by college preachers and social media dickwaving, I've more than a bit of distrust of the intent. And indeed their own knowledge, I think a lot of young lads who are probably nationalists or right wing don't understand that SF isn't a vote for such.
 

Sweet Square

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Nonsense argument. There are around 10,000 people homeless in Ireland and it's a national disgrace. Never once did I say it's acceptable. It's a problem, it needs to be solved. Reading back over what I wrote, I can see how it came across that I was trivialising the homeless crisis. I wasn't. I was acknowledging that it's a genuine issue. We can both be horrified by the homeless crisis and annoyed by people who always feel entitled to more at the same time. There are not utopias was a poor choice of phrase, when talking about homelessness, that was directed at those who are doing ok, but feel entitled to more. Having engaged with lots of my friends in discussions about the election over the past few weeks, I met a few who wanted the homeless crisis solved, the health service reformed, they want a higher miniumum wage, they want USC abolished, they want lower taxes and the thresholds for higher tax brackets raised and so much more. You could make an argument for each and every one of those things, absolutely, but where is the money to pay for all of this supposed to come from?
Taxing corporations and mass state investment, would be a good start. Ireland at the moment is a giant tax haven, with it's main goal being exporting Irish citizens in the hope they won't return. The Irish state doesn't even attempt to tackle companies such as apple and is the worst country in the EU when it comes to climate change(The state and the economy isn't like a house hold budget). Wanting you're government to tackle the biggest crisis facing the human race isn't feeling entitled to everything.


As I said above the "There are no Utopias" was directed at the people who have, but want more. Not directed at the homeless or the people on trollies. As for "slagging off people on the dole", I argued against people that feel they are entitled to everything, both working people and people on social welfare, but of course ignore that and say I'm "slagging off people on the dole".
Who are these people ? Do they make up a mass part of the population ? Do you know the inner workings of their finances ? I honestly don't get anger some have with people on dole having the tiniest bit of ''luxury'' (some designer clothes and a holiday), maybe I'm crazy but to me the people who have everything but want more, seem to be the people who own multiple houses, ton of sports cars, and have their own private jets and yachts inside bigger yachets(Yes that's actually a thing)BUT......you know Mary once went on holiday. Again the Irish government literally granted illegal tax benefits to Apple, which maybe just maybe is real entitlements we should be angry over.

Affordable housing, good healthcare, workers rights and fighting climate change is simply the very basics of social welfare.
 

Withnail

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I never said anyone was a scammer or loaded. I said there are people on welfare who go abroad every year, wear nice clothes, have decent cars and have active social lives (The best of everything might have been an exaggeration alright). If you claim you don't know people like that then It's me who would be dubious.

I also never said we should accept anything. I have no problem with voting for change. I have no problem with Sinn Fein governing. I have a problem with many of their policies as I don't think many are even remotely doable or realistic.

I just said that there are many people who are living fine lives, but feel entitled to so much more. A civilised country owes it's citizens a decent standard of living. There are many who aren't being offered that at the minute and they deserve much, much better. There are far more though, that have a more than decent standard of living, but feel entitled to more, instead of looking to manage their money better or work harder, or at all.
I'm not really sure what the point of your rant was, to be honest, but it doesn't seem to have come across the way you intended.

If you weren't intending to trivialize the homeless crisis etc, then fair enough.

As someone else said, a lot of people complain about the govt on behalf of the have-nots rather than because they feel they are owed something but I haven't been speaking to the people you are so I'm not sure if that is applicable to your point either.
 

Conor

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Taxing corporations and mass state investment, would be a good start. Ireland at the moment is a giant tax haven, with it's main goal being exporting Irish citizens in the hope they won't return. The Irish state doesn't even attempt to tackle companies such as apple and is the worst country in the EU when it comes to climate change(The state and the economy isn't like a house hold budget). Wanting you're government to tackle the biggest crisis facing the human race isn't feeling entitled to everything.



Who are these people ? Do they make up a mass part of the population ? Do you know the inner workings of their finances ? I honestly don't get anger some have with people on dole having the tiniest bit of ''luxury'' (some designer clothes and a holiday), maybe I'm crazy but to me the people who have everything but want more, seem to be the people who own multiple houses, ton of sports cars, and have their own private jets and yachts inside bigger yachets(Yes that's actually a thing)BUT......you know Mary once went on holiday. Again the Irish government literally granted illegal tax benefits to Apple, which maybe just maybe is real entitlements we should be angry over.

Affordable housing, good healthcare, workers rights and fighting climate change is simply the very basics of social welfare.
Regarding your comments about people on the dole, it can be extremely frustrating to be part of the squeezed middle, having studied and worked your whole life, to watch a not-insignificant amount of those you grew up with doing absolutely nothing of the sort, and still living a similar life to the one you're living. I'd say it's one of the main drivers pushing people towards conservative ideals in their 20s.

Obviously, you need to understand the context of how those situations will evolve long term, but still, I can definitely understand the frustration. I don't view my tax as something I'm paying in to eventually take back, I'm happy that it goes to help people that need it(in theory anyway), and I would be happy to be taxed more if it meant those people actually got the necessary help to live a normal life. I do think that the way we hand out money as a country can be a bit grating sometimes, there should be far more rules in place regarding able bodied people being allowed to simply collect the dole because they're above working an actual job that would pay similar.
 

Charlie Foley

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Haughey with a big jump from Heney surplus but Dublin bay north is still open. Francis Noel Duffy will hopefully get in now, well ahead of zappone in 6th. SD have run a great campaign in Wicklow it has to be said given Donnelly left the party
 

Shark

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Regarding your comments about people on the dole, it can be extremely frustrating to be part of the squeezed middle, having studied and worked your whole life, to watch a not-insignificant amount of those you grew up with doing absolutely nothing of the sort, and still living a similar life to the one you're living. I'd say it's one of the main drivers pushing people towards conservative ideals in their 20s.

Obviously, you need to understand the context of how those situations will evolve long term, but still, I can definitely understand the frustration. I don't view my tax as something I'm paying in to eventually take back, I'm happy that it goes to help people that need it(in theory anyway), and I would be happy to be taxed more if it meant those people actually got the necessary help to live a normal life. I do think that the way we hand out money as a country can be a bit grating sometimes, there should be far more rules in place regarding able bodied people being allowed to simply collect the dole because they're above working an actual job that would pay similar.
People on the dole are claiming about 200 quid a week, no? That’s feck all in the scheme of things. The people you’re referring to perhaps have recently become unemployed and have savings to carry them over for a while.
 
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Withnail

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People on the dole are claiming about 200 quid a week, no? That’s feck all in the scheme of things. The people you’re referring to perhaps have recently become unemployed and have savings to carry them over for a while. Not everyone claiming benefits has been on them long term.
And if you've ever been on the dole, they'd don't make it easy for you to sit on your hole doing nothing and I agree its a pittance.

You can hardly afford a couple of pints.
 

Sweet Square

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Regarding your comments about people on the dole, it can be extremely frustrating to be part of the squeezed middle, having studied and worked your whole life, to watch a not-insignificant amount of those you grew up with doing absolutely nothing of the sort, and still living a similar life to the one you're living. I'd say it's one of the main drivers pushing people towards conservative ideals in their 20s.

This is a joke btw

I can sort of get the frustrating but the reason you've studied and worked your whole life and still part of the squeezed middle is because of the decades long attack on the state by capital, not the people on the dole. Maybe this isn't you but I find the people who are frustrated at the welfare state tend to be annoyed that they personally aren't higher up on the food chain, their anger come the fact they've put the work in and are still stuck with the ''slackers'' and ''wasters'' rather than the idea we all collectively should be living better lives.


Obviously, you need to understand the context of how those situations will evolve long term, but still, I can definitely understand the frustration. I don't view my tax as something I'm paying in to eventually take back, I'm happy that it goes to help people that need it(in theory anyway), and I would be happy to be taxed more if it meant those people actually got the necessary help to live a normal life. I do think that the way we hand out money as a country can be a bit grating sometimes, there should be far more rules in place regarding able bodied people being allowed to simply collect the dole because they're above working an actual job that would pay similar.
As someone living in Britain this only leads to awful awful outcomes(Mental ill people starving to death or killing themselves).
 

Withnail

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Haughey with a big jump from Heney surplus but Dublin bay north is still open. Francis Noel Duffy will hopefully get in now, well ahead of zappone in 6th. SD have run a great campaign in Wicklow it has to be said given Donnelly left the party
Aodhán should get in when John Lyons and Bernard Mulvaney get excluded but Haughey could be in trouble now as there's no one left who seems transferrable for him.

It'll be really interesting how DBN goes.
 

lsd

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So which parties will go in with Sinn Fein will the Greens and Independents do so ?
 

christy87

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And if you've ever been on the dole, they'd don't make it easy for you to sit on your hole doing nothing and I agree its a pittance.

You can hardly afford a couple of pints.
My buddy a lifer on the dole takes more holidays, buys more games, gets rent allowance, and probably has a few claiming scams and to top it off he votes for the fascist partys.
He goes on about immigration like it effects him in any way, I just think the cnut should get a job and see what is like in the real world.
 

caid

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I can understand RexHamilton and Conors point tbh. Kind of. I've met plenty of entitled people, they're not at all common in my social circles but I'm aware of them. And i have a fair bit of sympathy for people on the lower end of pay scales, commuting 3+ hours a day. Its a tough life for them at the moment.
I've been bouncing on and off unemployment for most of the last 12 or so years. I think part of the problem is that when i've gotten a job its either straight up payed less or due to travel costs or whatever payed the same as social welfare. So the idea of having nice clothes or going on holidays or taking sick leave (Its been a while since i've had a job that payed for sick leave) is a distant memory tbh. I had savings at one point and i was quite comfortable for a time. It just didn't last. I haven't had more than a few hundred in the bank in years. If i get that much something breaks or a bill pops up and its gone again. I'm living in my parents house and i flat out cant afford to move out, unless i want to go back to a student diet of living on pot noodles and corn flakes (i'm not 20 anymore cant imagine that being a great plan). I manage but feel like i'm made walk a tightrope to 'prove' i'm looking for work and below that is homelessness .

Meanwhile Apple pays 0.01% tax. Kind of feel your frustration is misdirected.
 
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sullydnl

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And if you've ever been on the dole, they'd don't make it easy for you to sit on your hole doing nothing and I agree its a pittance.

You can hardly afford a couple of pints.
It's also (for most people) a miserable, disheartening, confidence-eroding experience. Living that way is something I wouldn't wish on people I dislike, let alone begrudge people I don't know for.
 

golden_blunder

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People on the dole are claiming about 200 quid a week, no? That’s feck all in the scheme of things. The people you’re referring to perhaps have recently become unemployed and have savings to carry them over for a while.
As of December I’m signing on at 46 years old for the first time. I was made redundant.
I receive €203 per week and feel totally embarrassed having to stand in a post office queue to get it. You have to go to all sorts of meetings and it’s for a maximum 9 months. It’s soul destroying
 

2cents

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So which parties will go in with Sinn Fein will the Greens and Independents do so ?
SD’s Shorthall has indicated a willingness to talk to everyone, they’re up a few seats and feeling positive so they’d surely jump in. It’s not likely to happen though, they and the others won’t be needed once FF and SF reach an agreement.
 

lsd

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As of December I’m signing on at 46 years old for the first time. I was made redundant.
I receive €203 per week and feel totally embarrassed having to stand in a post office queue to get it. You have to go to all sorts of meetings and it’s for a maximum 9 months. It’s soul destroying

What happens after 9 monthes ?
 

TwoSheds

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I always find it odd that people get more upset over a tiny minority having undeserved benefits than by another tiny minority having nothing but a mucky sleeping bag and a shop doorway. Even if the price of solving homelessness was to have a few more lazy cnuts living at the state's expense (which it's probably not when you look at cost to police, courts, prisons, hospitals, social services etc etc but hey ho) then it would be a price well worth paying.
 

Conor

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This is a joke btw

I can sort of get the frustrating but the reason you've studied and worked your whole life and still part of the squeezed middle is because of the decades long attack on the state by capital, not the people on the dole. Maybe this isn't you but I find the people who are frustrated at the welfare state tend to be annoyed that they personally aren't higher up on the food chain, their anger come the fact they've put the work in and are still stuck with the ''slackers'' and ''wasters'' rather than the idea we all collectively should be living better lives.



As someone living in Britain this only leads to awful awful outcomes(Mental ill people starving to death or killing themselves).
Haha I'm definitely not Grimey, and I completely understand your point re: government inaction etc., I also don't fundamentally disagree with the dole, I just think it's very open to chancers and scammers(along with rent subsidy etc.). I've seen people in their early 20s, on the dole, get given a basically free apartment because they have a kid, out living the life every other weekend. Lots of them selling petty amounts of drugs on the side, no interest in any way of getting a job because they couldn't take the embarrassment(in their head) of stacking shelves in Tesco or something like that.

In one of my local FB groups recently there was a woman who had the gall to complain about minimal rent increases for her council owned house, and in her comment mentioned she was earning 2000 a month AFTER tax. I know it's anecdotal, but there are plenty of examples like this out there. She was obviously met with hundreds of people responding with their experience of renting in the private market while working low paid jobs/trying to save for houses.

To the other comments, I am in no way trying to belittle anyone on the dole for a good reason, my posts are solely aimed at the people taking advantage of our welfare system, which from my experience is not an insignificant amount of people.
 

caid

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Haha I'm definitely not Grimey, and I completely understand your point re: government inaction etc., I also don't fundamentally disagree with the dole, I just think it's very open to chancers and scammers(along with rent subsidy etc.). I've seen people in their early 20s, on the dole, get given a basically free apartment because they have a kid, out living the life every other weekend. Lots of them selling petty amounts of drugs on the side, no interest in any way of getting a job because they couldn't take the embarrassment(in their head) of stacking shelves in Tesco or something like that.

In one of my local FB groups recently there was a woman who had the gall to complain about minimal rent increases for her council owned house, and in her comment mentioned she was earning 2000 a month AFTER tax. I know it's anecdotal, but there are plenty of examples like this out there. She was obviously met with hundreds of people responding with their experience of renting in the private market while working low paid jobs/trying to save for houses.

To the other comments, I am in no way trying to belittle anyone on the dole for a good reason, my posts are solely aimed at the people taking advantage of our welfare system, which from my experience is not an insignificant amount of people.
Its hard to prove one way or the other tbh. Its hard to prove your genuinely seeking work so i presume its similarly hard to prove your not. From using the service it feels like its heavily tuned to catch cheats but not really taking into account the effect on the geniune cases or tuning it to help them (its improved a bit in recent years mind you).
 

Massive Spanner

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As of December I’m signing on at 46 years old for the first time. I was made redundant.
I receive €203 per week and feel totally embarrassed having to stand in a post office queue to get it. You have to go to all sorts of meetings and it’s for a maximum 9 months. It’s soul destroying
After 9 months you just switch to JSA indefinitely though.

I would hate to be on the dole. I don't envy you or anyone else who has to do it, and I don't agree with those who complain about people living the life off it. I have extreme aggreviences with those who abuse the system and pop out kids as soon as they turn 18 and go straight on the housing registrar for their foreveh home but people who only get 204e off the dole generally have no life to be envious of.
 

Massive Spanner

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It’s the length of time you can claim job seekers benefit. After that you’re on your own
Not sure where you're getting that from mate. Once you're off JSB you switch to JSA which has the exact same allowance. There's no limit to being on the dole in Ireland and you don't get punished for being on it long term. no doubt they will get more aggressive trying to force you into work though.

Edit: oh you're married right? So maybe your spouse's income means you won't qualify?
 

golden_blunder

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Withnail

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Haha I'm definitely not Grimey, and I completely understand your point re: government inaction etc., I also don't fundamentally disagree with the dole, I just think it's very open to chancers and scammers(along with rent subsidy etc.). I've seen people in their early 20s, on the dole, get given a basically free apartment because they have a kid, out living the life every other weekend. Lots of them selling petty amounts of drugs on the side, no interest in any way of getting a job because they couldn't take the embarrassment(in their head) of stacking shelves in Tesco or something like that.

In one of my local FB groups recently there was a woman who had the gall to complain about minimal rent increases for her council owned house, and in her comment mentioned she was earning 2000 a month AFTER tax. I know it's anecdotal, but there are plenty of examples like this out there. She was obviously met with hundreds of people responding with their experience of renting in the private market while working low paid jobs/trying to save for houses.

To the other comments, I am in no way trying to belittle anyone on the dole for a good reason, my posts are solely aimed at the people taking advantage of our welfare system, which from my experience is not an insignificant amount of people.
Statistically though it is a insignificant amount of people who are gaming the system.

The main gripe should be the mismanagement of public funds and the money wasted by successive governments. They've literally poured billions into our health service and it's not fit for purpose.
 

lsd

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Its going to be close who has most seats now . Fine Gael could well end up on top
 

Conor

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Statistically though it is a insignificant amount of people who are gaming the system.

The main gripe should be the mismanagement of public funds and the money wasted by successive governments. They've literally poured billions into our health service and it's not fit for purpose.
I do have that gripe of course, and I voted SD because of it.
 

Withnail

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Its going to be close who has most seats now . Fine Gael could well end up on top
I had a look through the remaining constituencies earlier and it looked like FF would come out on top by 4 or 5

I had another look and it's still on for them but could be close. FG are only in the running for another 2 seats realistically while FF could get another 6 or 7 max.
 

caid

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I had a look through the remaining constituencies earlier and it looked like FF would come out on top by 4 or 5

I had another look and it's still on for them but could be close. FG are only in the running for another 2 seats realistically while FF could get another 6 or 7 max.
SF 37, FF 35, FG 35 would be my prediction. Maybe 36, 34 with FF, FG

They'll probably need greens to form a government.