As a black person I agree with him. It has lost its meaning. In my view It's now just a routine to virtue signal.
[Irrelevant point] to stop taking the knee
- Thread starter Schmeichel's Cartwheel
- Start date
As an Asian, I completely agree
Despite my massive dislike for Donald Trump, Joe Biden's "if you don't vote for me you're not black" was the most racist thing said in that election. Like all black people are a monolithic block. Or there is a right way to be black. At the election where Trump's share of the black vote actually grew.
Same as Trudeau and his multiple black face horrors... It's okay because he SAYS the right things according to the left (despite it assuming to be his fancy dress "thing").
I'm also reminded of The Guardian running it as their top story when Sasha Johnson was shot. When they found out the perpetrators were black it was dropped like a hot stone.
White liberals and the black people that agree with them (a perfectly okay position for what it's worth) need to realise that not everybody thinks like them, black/white or otherwise.
I'd recommend people listening to the likes of Coleman Hughes, John McWhorter or Thomas Sowell to hear a very intelligent, thoughtful position from black people on these very issues that highlight the fact that "black people" are in no way different from "white people" (in the sense that there are a broad and varied viewpoints that may agree or disagree to varying degrees) . The whole talk of "Black people" as a monolithic grouping is insane and actually really racist.
I've said earlier if he said "I don't feel like kneeling anymore and that's it" it would have been fine.
His reasoning was stupid though (as was his reasoning to get behind the wheel yada yada...).. so was his decision to replace one pointless gesture with... Another pointless gesture?
Numerous black players feel like "what's the point" and their perspectives are valid as well... It's real easy to view the lack of initiative on tackling racism in the sport and become apathetic. It's an indictment on the sport, not said players.
Sowell, isn't he another trickle-down clown? No thanks.
As as hispanic person, I agree completely.
The bolded is absolute nonsense. Unless you believe Rashford and Sterling and Saka and co... are virtue signaling.
He'd deny that very much himself.
But yeah - many consider him to belong in that category, broadly speaking.
For what it's worth I disagree with Thomas Sowel's stance on economics (although he is an economist and I'm not). Doesn't mean he doesn't have other valid opinions or that his opinion is invalidated. People have a wide variety of stances on a wide variety of issues. Guess what? That's okay and I'm okay with that.
Regardless of virtue signalling, it is the black collective who should be deciding whether or not it needs to continue i.e. the victims of black insults and racism. It’s obvious every country in Europe has a very high degree of racism even in the UK where it’s subtle I.e I’ve seen first hand of white people moving out of areas or choosing different schools when Asians/blacks start to uptick in numbers.
Virtue signalling or not I believe it should continue and be compounded with other schemes/education. Even if it gets kids questioning, “why are they kneeling, mum/dad?”. Racism has existed for centuries, kneeling should continue along with many, many, many, many more collective initiatives. In the 21st century to think the colour of skin matters is mind boggling but it does.
If the collective of the black majority is to discontinue it I will be disappointed but it’s up to them, I for one think it’s just one of many arrows.
Virtue signalling or not I believe it should continue and be compounded with other schemes/education. Even if it gets kids questioning, “why are they kneeling, mum/dad?”. Racism has existed for centuries, kneeling should continue along with many, many, many, many more collective initiatives. In the 21st century to think the colour of skin matters is mind boggling but it does.
If the collective of the black majority is to discontinue it I will be disappointed but it’s up to them, I for one think it’s just one of many arrows.
Listen to yourself. "The black collective". It's madly insulting and dehumanising. It's borderline racist. "The black collective" FFS. Like all black people think the same, act the same and are dismissed as a homogenous lump.
100% agreed. Whether one agrees or disagrees with Alonso, this is something very important to never forget
He never makes that claim as far as I know.
Should it not be mentioned?
The black collective?
WTF is that? We are not a hive mind. We don't magically communicate through our highthened melanin on whether to call it football or soccer. How exactly do we determine for the rest of the other races to keep kneeling or not? I mean wow!! Do I get a vote as a black man in Africa?Being an outsider looking into Western politics I must admit it's the left who tend to say some of the wildest things (mostly with good intentions but still pretty wild ). You could easily tell these people just want to be on the ‘cool side’ and have absolutely no idea what they are about.
The Black Collective sounds like something out of WWE in the early 90s.
Wow, you got that from what I said, ffs.
I’m talking about black leaders in the community coming together as an advisory panel on the issue, sharing thoughts of black people on matters that effect them and real initiatives that work.
Footballers are now speaking up hopefully social media will start to listen but it needs to come from everyone and I’m not just referring to kneeling in football I’m talking about in every facet of life.
I’m keen to know what you would suggest?
How I imagine The Black Collective
When black folks hear the words black collective.How I imagine The Black Collective
I think the accusations of virtue signalling are a bit harsh, even for the players who don't really believe kneeling does anything but do it anyway.
You can show a bit of solidarity and empathy without it being virtue signalling.
You can show a bit of solidarity and empathy without it being virtue signalling.
That's one thing, to call it virtue signalling is another thing all together.
Also the idea behind it is to normalise conversations about racism, normalise acts of anti-racism so that it is more normalised in society than acts of racism are.
Nobody is suggesting that a racist person all of a sudden will change their views once they see people knee before a match. But (and i've seen this happen) once they start espousing those views out loud, "I hate this knee BLM nonsense" etc, there are people to actually stand up for the players and the act itself because they've been educated on the topic because it's been in their face so often and for so long that it becomes normal to them.
Also, what's the alternative? We all know racism is a societal problem, so it's up to society to change first - this is just one aspect that can help change footballing society.
What are your options & ideas?
You just don't get the differing perspective. The problem is not the sport. The problem is not the players. The problem is people's hearts and culture. Nothing about taking a knee has shown it would change those things. It's not educating people. It's not guiding people to make better choice. It's not inspiring anyone to upgrade their culture. Infact I believe in the states for one, it arguably made things worse.
It's such a pointless thing to make a stand about.
Even if it has lost its strength, what does not doing it achieve? Other than cause people like Farage to align with you and mean your manager has to waste his time trying to defend or deflect from it.
I mean at best Alonso has proven he's a bit of an idiot.
Even if it has lost its strength, what does not doing it achieve? Other than cause people like Farage to align with you and mean your manager has to waste his time trying to defend or deflect from it.
I mean at best Alonso has proven he's a bit of an idiot.
I believe it is. I do not see how them taking a knee does a single thing to change racism in people's hearts. I find it an absolute nonsense that people think it's changing things for the better
In my view. Prominent black people and other genuinely interested parties come together, then propose to the government a series of educational programs aimed at educating people about the ills of racism. One aimed ar getting people to upgrade their cultures and identify actually things that have led to such cultures being prevalent. To foster better understanding between races.
I've personally always wondered why racism has never been treated the way things like drink driving was back in the day for example. Or how the dangers of smokong became wide spread knowledge.
After all it requires the same deep changes in mindset of the populace.
Why can't that happen while also taking the knee before matches?
What are you doing to help get this started? Are you petitioning to said "prominent black people and other genuinely interested parties"? Have you written to your local MP?
How can you "upgrade their cultures" who is "their" in this scenario, and how exactly do we measure said "upgrade"? How does this upgrade foster better understanding between races? Are there studies on this to show precedent?
In my view. Prominent black people and other genuinely interested parties come together, then propose to the government a series of educational programs aimed at educating people about the ills of racism. One aimed ar getting people to upgrade their cultures and identify actually things that have led to such cultures being prevalent. To foster better understanding between different racial cultures.
Last edited:
I tell you why. Did Martin Luther king or Malcolm X need a take a knee style gimmick to institute lasting change in the face of literal racial war? Did Jesse Owens? What of a Mohammed Ali when he took a stand the almost cost him his career and arguably cost him a chance of being an even greater sports man than he ended up being? Do you think these current sports men or celebrities get close to what those guys suffered with racism in today's western society?
And when I talk of "their culture'. I'm talking national culture. Societal culture. Just because a give race experience racism in a society. Doesn't suddenly make it separate from that society. It means rather efforts must be made to improve the society as a whole and erase those divisive barriers allowing such backward mindsets to still thrive. In where I reside in Africa, that's how we fought certain tribal mindsets and ethnic divides that were detrimental to national unity. It's a never ending process. But lasting change can be made that way. It should be a "we are all on the same boat" issue. Not an "us vs them."
Last edited:
I agree with this to a point but I don't think it's intention is to change anything in itself. It's more of a protest/taking a stand and to give a sense of solidarity. It's a way for players and fans to show they are all on the same page.
The same way people showing their support for Rashford etc. after the euros won't stop idiots being idiots, but does show that the vast majority of people recognise the idiots as idiots and don't want to be associated.
Spot on. People like to think it's changing things for the better to make themselves feel like they are "doing their bit" with the least effort possible. It takes a lot more than that to truly change racism.
The message was powerful at first, but like wallpaper it becomes bland. Do people even think about the message its conveying when they watch a match?
I dont know what the answer is to stop racism and maybe there will always be racists.
Uh yes, they often held protests against racism, MLK especially. And I dont understand why you're comparing those who were fighting for civil rights to sports men & women who are campaigning for awareness of racism in the sport. It's a ridiculous comparison that shows either lack of knowledge on the likes of MLK & Malcolm X or lack of knowledge on what taking the knee is meant to do & why it started - or both.
It doesn't matter if the current sports men or celebrities suffer anywhere close to what people in the past - life is completely different now to the 60s but racism is still around, changed, but still around - therefore the tactics needed to help stop racism also needed to change.
Why aren't you doing anything on your side to enact change?
Fair enough. I just feel though it's becoming more of a political gimmick that can be easily distroted to forster division rather than unity.
This educating people is a long term thing, to get rid of unconscious bias.
Taking the knee should just be done, it’s just pointless debating it, carry on doing it and do even more things to combat, raise awareness of racism.
Target comedians for racist jokes, no name job applications (blind), corporate companies having a forced quota for minority races for jobs. The positive prejudice vibe, prison sentances?
Also to register on social media, passport/driving license checks, better AI, with education the long term tool.
Taking the knee should just be done, it’s just pointless debating it, carry on doing it and do even more things to combat, raise awareness of racism.
Target comedians for racist jokes, no name job applications (blind), corporate companies having a forced quota for minority races for jobs. The positive prejudice vibe, prison sentances?
Also to register on social media, passport/driving license checks, better AI, with education the long term tool.
Erm, people thinking for themselves and acting on their own conscience. Obviously.
"black leaders".
You're a card aren't you?
I repeat my question. What was the political gimmick similar to taking the knee? Protesting isn't a political gimmick
because they themselves claim to be fighting 'deep racism' in their countries. So I'm inclined to hold then to the standards of people who actually fought classic deep racism.
There ypy go making very laughable and extravagant assumptions. It's because studied the history of the former and understood the motives of the later that Im making that statement. Personally I have zero respect for Kapernick and this nonsense he started.
Bullshit. I have no respect for anyone who has a huge platform and uses it to preach myths that society is worse now and unchanged from the times of civil rights fights. Not only is that idiot spitting on the victories those folks won with blood, to enable him/her the platform and voice to speak in the first place, they are just creating a perfect situation for deeper division to forster in the present.
Racism is a societal ill just like drunk driving used to be. The tactics to change societal ills are the self the same. Edu ation. Not histrionics and political gimmickry.
Who told you I have not?
The protesting they did back then would be seen as a political gimmick in today's lens. MLK and Malcolm X delivered speeches at every event they were invited to. Other prominent black leaders held protests & marches similar to the ones undertaken by BLM - and in todays gaze, would be seen as a political gimmick too.
In fact tell me what acts MLK, Malcolm X, Ali etc did that in your mind wouldn't be seen as a gimmick?
You have zero respect for Kaepernick for protesting against racial inequality and police brutality?
It doesn't matter if you think society is worse or better - racism is still around, is it not? So why do you have zero respect for the people who are actually out there doing something to make a change in society? You realise the alternative position actively fosters deeper divisions in society and makes it harder for black people to express themselves.
There's no one-size-fits-all solution to end racism, and I agree more needs to be done to increase education about the issue, but it's not mutually exclusive. We can do more to educate about racism, while also raising awareness during sports - in the same way there used to be adverts about drink driving, or gambling irresponsibly etc. It doesn't mean we have to stop taking the knee and only focus on education. We can do both, in fact it's better to do as much as possible.
And you didn't say you did, I asked you previously what you were doing on your side after you listed the policies you wanted to see enabled - I asked you what steps you have taken to start those wheels and you didn't respond to my question.
So what are you doing?
Quit pretending. A political gimmick is a gimmick in ANY era. They didn't need any to do what they did in far harsher conditions.
You wish. Rather I have zero respect for him pretending that is what it was about. This was a guy who went for example from within a space of one year talking of how 'proud he was of where america had come from' in and independence day tweet. To decrying it as a nation he wants no part of a year later. He was NEVER known for his activism before. I've seen nothing from his life that could have inspired a light bulb moment neither. No one will convince me in that racial inequality nor police brutality took such a leap in the states as to warrant his change of stance. This guy pulled a gimmick for personal gain and it pander to the main stream agenda that is hated the post Obama seating president. Nothing about his stance was genuine.
Besides when he decries the flag in the manner he did he spits on what his own ancestors died and fought for. I find it amazing people constantly pretend it isn't the case........
I suggest you stop trying to put words in my mouth. I have zero respect for pretenders like Kapaernick. I can tell the difference between the real thing and pretenders. You haven't seen me saying I disrespect what the likes of Rashford have recently done in England with the food voucher program, for example......
Utter unabridged bullshit. It is NOT hard for a single black person to express themselves nor be heard in today's western society. Let aloen teh world at large. That is an out right lie.
Yes it does. You are changing the same thing: a mindset that leads to a prevalent societal ill. Gimmickry has NEVER been the solution and never will be
I refused to respond because what I do in my own life to help society and the world reduce racism culturally has NOTHING to do with his thread. Besides you already had your mind pretty made up about me when you posted this
Last edited:
I'm not pretending, this is reality. If you studied any of the treatment these leaders got back then, you would see this to be true too. MLK especially wasn't appreciated or loved until much later in his career and really not until after his death. During his lifetime the majority of people weren't on his side.
So he can't change? Isn't that the point of educating people about racism that you are pointing out - the end result is to educate enough people about the issues that maybe they weren't aware of in the past, so they can make informed decisions later on and change their mindset.
You're basically saying because he didn't make a statement beforehand, that meant any political statement he made afterwards became a gimmick?
And isn't the point of a gimmick the idea to trick or deceive? What has be been deceptive about since he started his protest?
What about Tommie Smith and John Carlos, was their political statement a gimmick too?
I'm not putting anything in your mouth, i'm just responding to what you are saying.
In your opinion, but it doesn't make it facts - we've seen black athletes come out after the likes of Sterling made comments about the treatment he received from the press in this country - and many others spoke up to say they feel the same way, and are glad he's the one to come forward because they can relate etc. And that's just celebrities.
It's certainly easier for black people to express themselves - but even resistance to something as simple as kneeling down against racism is met with debate these days.
You think you can change society through education alone and are discounting the impact cultural things like sports in this country has on the nations alignment. Most people in this country wouldn't be able to recite Year 9 trigonometry if you asked them to off the top of their head, but during the summer everyone was basically united behind a common cause to support England - and you don't see the value in making antiracism a theme through a cultural event like football?
I think it does if you're telling everyone what is and isn't useful if you don't have any alternatives and you yourself aren't doing anything to make change.
I didn't make my mind up about you when I posted this btw, your responses helped clarify that.