Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It

What's your take on Guardiola?


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El cangrejo

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Would Pep have won CL with Porto & Inter with those set of players? Absolutely no chance.
Why not? Porto had some excellent players (if we're not giving Guardiola credit for his Barça players' development, then Mou doesn't get Carvalho or Deco either) and a pretty easy route to the trophy, while Inter's squad was one of the best in Europe and their major obstacle of beating Barcelona in the semi wouldn't exist in a universe where Guardiola was Inter coach.

Of course things probably would have worked out differently, but to say he'd have "no chance" of winning the CL those years with those squads is rubbish.
 

Synco

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Pep would a CL in 09 with a front 6 of Xavi (28), Iniesta (25), Busquets (20), Henry (31), Eto'o (28) & Messi (21). The back 4 wasn't that old either, looks like a huge collection of some of the worlds best players over the last 30 years. They were mismanaged in the previous season but winning a CL with that set of players isn't something to get carried away with.

Pep may well have won a CL that Mourinho's Real sides but Mourinho would likely have won them with Barca too, as for that set of players Mourinho won the CL with there's no chance Pep would have replicated that. Pep relies on a lot of great players to play the way he wants, Mourinho doesn't.
But many of these players were also that good because they and Guardiola's football were a perfect match. High pressing and simply not conceding possession fit that team like a glove defensively, I doubt Mourinho's usual defensive concept would have made equally good use of the same set of players.

Against high quality opposition, he typically invites pressure and needs the right players to absorb it. There's a good chance he would have favoured Keita over Busquets, Toure over Xavi and would have been in a constant quarrel over young Messi's defensive contribution. Pique might not have been his first choice when buying a CB, Valdes would likely have been replaced by a taller, more traditional goalkeeper. The whole synergy of that team would never have happened in the same way, and I'm sure they wouldn't have been as good without it.
 

Treble

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I'd give credit to Jose's talent and say that he would have won CL titles with Barcelona. The squad was full with talent. But, at the same time, I'd say Jose wouldn't have created such an amaizing team. This is where Guardiola's talent comes to the fore: his style can't win titles with Leicester and possibly Porto but it can create great teams when the squad is suitable for his style.

In other words, oversimplifying, Guardiola is a great option for top dogs whereas Jose is a great options for underdogs. If Guardiola becomes available now many big clubs would fire their manager and hire him if given the chance. Even Real wanted him. Jose can have success with top dogs as well but not to the to extent he had with underdogs. He was a relative success at Real but not to the extent they hoped.
 

Sunspear17

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It comes across that Pep's tactics (with this City team anyway, not sure about at Barca or Bayern) are to go out there and press, press, press and transition into attack asap and try finish the opponent off by scoring a few goals in the first half so they can sit back and play their possession game in 2nd half which is why they look more vulnerable in the latter half of the game. Am I wrong? I didn't watch enough of Barca and Bayern during his time there to know if this is true or not.
 

padr81

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It comes across that Pep's tactics (with this City team anyway, not sure about at Barca or Bayern) are to go out there and press, press, press and transition into attack asap and try finish the opponent off by scoring a few goals in the first half so they can sit back and play their possession game in 2nd half which is why they look more vulnerable in the latter half of the game. Am I wrong? I didn't watch enough of Barca and Bayern during his time there to know if this is true or not.
That seemed the case yesterday but I think in reality what happened was we were playing well, gave away a stupid peno and practically shit ourselves.
We are not near as good as they were but we are pretty much a carbon copy of Pep's Barca tactically now.

Henry nailed it last season and we actually play exactly as he describes in this video now.
 

Physiocrat

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That seemed the case yesterday but I think in reality what happened was we were playing well, gave away a stupid peno and practically shit ourselves.
We are not near as good as they were but we are pretty much a carbon copy of Pep's Barca tactically now.

Henry nailed it last season and we actually play exactly as he describes in this video now.
Great vid. Thanks for sharing
 

Physiocrat

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Pep and Mou are two totally different managers

Pep is a man with a fully tested philosophy. Give him time and money and he will transform any team into the same copy and paste team. That team will win anything there is to win up until his philosophy becomes outdated and he will end up a dinosaur just like Wenger, Sacchi and his former tutor LVG

Mou is the football version of Bronn in GOT. He will adapt and even cheat his way to success up until there’s a higher bidder and then he’ll move on. If he has his way then he won’t give a feck about the future of the club simply because he won’t be there for very long. That’s exactly what he did with Inter.

Pep is a Wenger, an LVG or a Sacchi. He wouldn’t mind firing the best player in his team if that player happens not to fully embrace his ‘philosophy’. Mou is a Capello, an Ancelotti (later years) or a more mercanary version of SAF. Success is all that matters.
I like the image of Mou as a Bronn style character, I just wish he was as funny,
 

devilish

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I like the image of Mou as a Bronn style character, I just wish he was as funny,
He is as funny.

His time in Italy was memorable. The Italians tend to treat their football clubs and experts with outmost respect and reverence. Mou barged into it like an elephant in a china shop and there were some classic meltdowns which would make Kevan Keegan proud. His zero tituli (no leagues) comment to Roma was pure mint.
 

adexkola

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It comes across that Pep's tactics (with this City team anyway, not sure about at Barca or Bayern) are to go out there and press, press, press and transition into attack asap and try finish the opponent off by scoring a few goals in the first half so they can sit back and play their possession game in 2nd half which is why they look more vulnerable in the latter half of the game. Am I wrong? I didn't watch enough of Barca and Bayern during his time there to know if this is true or not.
Pep could do this with Barcelona because between Xavi, Busquets and Pique, they were just so, so good at keeping the ball, even under intense pressure from the opposition. With City I don't think they're that good. So I think Pep has evolved to a strategy of; hit the opposition hard in the first 20-30 minutes, then use your goal pad to hit them on the break as they start to push forward. City's 4th goal came during a period when Stoke pushed forward after their 2nd goal, thinking they could ride the momentum to equalize. They got caught out by KDB who released the striker with a brilliant pass. Before they knew it they were down by 6 goals. Same thing happened with Napoli less frequently, where City had the goal ruled offside, but it happened on the break.

On the other hand, with Stones and Otamendi's form, and Ederson being great at sweeping, they've proven that they're more immune to counter-attacks from the high press. Against Napoli and Chelsea they had a few shaky moments, but those were minute compared to the amount of times Morata or Mertens thought they were through on goal before Ederson or Stones swept the ball up and started a move in the opposite direction. Those are some of the most formidible opponents they'll face this season, will be interesting to see if they can adapt with adjustments from future foes (Mourinho in particular has to have something up his sleeve more complex than Herrara chasing De Bruyne across the pitch).
 

KM

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I'd give credit to Jose's talent and say that he would have won CL titles with Barcelona. The squad was full with talent. But, at the same time, I'd say Jose wouldn't have created such an amaizing team. This is where Guardiola's talent comes to the fore: his style can't win titles with Leicester and possibly Porto but it can create great teams when the squad is suitable for his style.

In other words, oversimplifying, Guardiola is a great option for top dogs whereas Jose is a great options for underdogs. If Guardiola becomes available now many big clubs would fire their manager and hire him if given the chance. Even Real wanted him. Jose can have success with top dogs as well but not to the to extent he had with underdogs. He was a relative success at Real but not to the extent they hoped.
Hard to disagree with what being's said here.

Mourinho's Madrid stint was like Pep's Bayern stint IMO, both did a very good job but in hindsight much more was expected out of them.
 

Ødegaard

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Almost always fair to criticize and to praise.
Managers are humans and make mistakes, and fans are humans and see things wrong.
 

Theonas

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I'd give credit to Jose's talent and say that he would have won CL titles with Barcelona. The squad was full with talent. But, at the same time, I'd say Jose wouldn't have created such an amaizing team. This is where Guardiola's talent comes to the fore: his style can't win titles with Leicester and possibly Porto but it can create great teams when the squad is suitable for his style.

In other words, oversimplifying, Guardiola is a great option for top dogs whereas Jose is a great options for underdogs. If Guardiola becomes available now many big clubs would fire their manager and hire him if given the chance. Even Real wanted him. Jose can have success with top dogs as well but not to the to extent he had with underdogs. He was a relative success at Real but not to the extent they hoped.
Perfect post. Always weird that so many don't get that the specialness of Pep's Barcelona was not just winning the CLs, it was the fact that everybody is trying to copy them and that they became the reference point whether we like it or not. The highlighted part sums it up perfectly too. If you have the cash, ambition and ego to not only win but be the top dog, there is no one even close to Guardiola. There is a reason he has never been fired by Barcelona and Bayern as well as pursued mercilessly by City and almost embarrassingly by Abramovic and us whereas Mourinho always had nowhere near the same worship among the elite clubs.
 

Womp

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Perfect post. Always weird that so many don't get that the specialness of Pep's Barcelona was not just winning the CLs, it was the fact that everybody is trying to copy them and that they became the reference point whether we like it or not. The highlighted part sums it up perfectly too. If you have the cash, ambition and ego to not only win but be the top dog, there is no one even close to Guardiola. There is a reason he has never been fired by Barcelona and Bayern as well as pursued mercilessly by City and almost embarrassingly by Abramovic and us whereas Mourinho always had nowhere near the same worship among the elite clubs.
They're not. Madrid are the first team to ever win back to back Champions leagues, convincingly too, something that incredible Barca team couldn't manage, playing a completely different style to what that Barca team did.

This romanticising needs to stop. Yes, that was a very good Barca team, probably the best club team of all time. This idea that it's a 'reference point' for other clubs though is rubbish.

Most teams aren't even opting for that possession style anymore, it's become almost synonymous with Pep now. In fact even Barca have moved away from that style in recent years, adopting a more counter-attacking style. Let's consider the top teams in World football now: Bayern don't play that style, nor do Madrid, Juve? Nope. Atleti? Not even close. Not even Barca really opt for that style anymore. Those clubs don't look to be implementing that style going forward either.

Clubs and their 'reference point's' are respective. In fact Pep himself is still trying to match the dominance that Barca team showed. He's been good since leaving, but has hardly been dominant. He's been nothing short of a huge failure in Europe (at a club who had just won the treble, mind you). Even he himself has had to adapt that style to the Premier League at City, instead opting for a more direct style.

I agree that if provided the resources he can create great teams who play great football, sure. This notion that it's a the level all other clubs yearn to aspire to is rubbish though. He's still yet to win another CL outside of Barca with this incredible football other teams aspire to emulate ffs.
 
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FCBarca

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Perfect post. Always weird that so many don't get that the specialness of Pep's Barcelona was not just winning the CLs, it was the fact that everybody is trying to copy them and that they became the reference point whether we like it or not. The highlighted part sums it up perfectly too. If you have the cash, ambition and ego to not only win but be the top dog, there is no one even close to Guardiola. There is a reason he has never been fired by Barcelona and Bayern as well as pursued mercilessly by City and almost embarrassingly by Abramovic and us whereas Mourinho always had nowhere near the same worship among the elite clubs.
Forgotten is that Pep took over a bottom dwelling 4th division Barcelona B team in 2007 and won them the division with Busquets, Pedro, Jeffren et al - there is no comparison to other coaches out there yet. Sarri is developing a similar resume but let's see what he will ultimately achieve
 

Theonas

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They're not. Madrid are the first team to ever win back to back Champions leagues, convincingly too, something that incredible Barca team couldn't manage, playing a completely different style to what that Barca team did.

This romanticising needs to stop. Yes, that was a very good Barca team, probably the best club team of all time. This idea that it's a 'reference point' for other clubs though is rubbish.

Most teams aren't even opting for that possession style anymore, it's become almost synonymous with Pep now. In fact even Barca have moved away from that style in recent years, adopting a more counter-attacking style. Let's consider the top teams in World football now: Bayern don't play that style, nor do Madrid, Juve? Nope. Atleti? Not even close. Not even Barca really opt for that style anymore. Those clubs don't look to be implementing that style going forward either.

Clubs and their 'reference point's' are respective. In fact Pep himself is still trying to match the dominance that Barca team showed. He's been good since leaving, but has hardly been dominant. He's been nothing short of a huge failure in Europe (at a club who had just won the treble, mind you). Even he himself has had to adapt that style to the Premier League at City, instead opting for a more direct style.

I agree that if provided the resources he can create great teams who play great football, sure. This notion that it's a the level all other clubs yearn to aspire to is rubbish. He's still yet to win another CL outside of Barca with this incredible football other teams aspire to emulate ffs.
If you are seriously arguing that Barcelona were not the most influential team in recent years since the Milan teams of the '90s, I am not sure there is much to talk about. Whether you like it or not, they have become the reference point, to a fault, one might add. Even the manager of the back to back CL winners was talking about how they need to pass and control possession better so they can play that way even against the likes of Barcelona. When the manager of the back to back CL winners still uses that as the level they need to reach, you understand the influence of Barcelona in that period. I think you are simply using a very narrow definition of style. Nobody claimed that everybody is following their specific tactics because nobody can really, no two teams ever play the same. It is the concept that you can win and play on the front foot no matter where and when that became the new standard. Even Pep's teams do not do that the same style, Barcelona, Bayern and City now adhere to the same mentality but the tactics are different.
 

adexkola

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If you are seriously arguing that Barcelona were not the most influential team in recent years since the Milan teams of the '90s, I am not sure there is much to talk about. Whether you like it or not, they have become the reference point, to a fault, one might add. Even the manager of the back to back CL winners was talking about how they need to pass and control possession better so they can play that way even against the likes of Barcelona. When the manager of the back to back CL winners still uses that as the level they need to reach, you understand the influence of Barcelona in that period. I think you are simply using a very narrow definition of style. Nobody claimed that everybody is following their specific tactics because nobody can really, no two teams ever play the same. It is the concept that you can win and play on the front foot no matter where and when that became the new standard. Even Pep's teams do not do that the same style, Barcelona, Bayern and City now adhere to the same mentality but the tactics are different.
Was going to type out a reply to his post but you said it all.

It also has to be said that Real's one league title in the past 4 years, compared to Barcelona's 3 titles back to back during their period of dominance, is damning, when it comes to their overall legacy.
 

Womp

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If you are seriously arguing that Barcelona were not the most influential team in recent years since the Milan teams of the '90s, I am not sure there is much to talk about. Whether you like it or not, they have become the reference point, to a fault, one might add. Even the manager of the back to back CL winners was talking about how they need to pass and control possession better so they can play that way even against the likes of Barcelona. When the manager of the back to back CL winners still uses that as the level they need to reach, you understand the influence of Barcelona in that period. I think you are simply using a very narrow definition of style. Nobody claimed that everybody is following their specific tactics because nobody can really, no two teams ever play the same. It is the concept that you can win and play on the front foot no matter where and when that became the new standard. Even Pep's teams do not do that the same style, Barcelona, Bayern and City now adhere to the same mentality but the tactics are different.
You claim that it's not about the tactics but more-so about the mentality. You then claim Zidane claiming his team needs to control posession better is him trying to emulate Pep's Barcelona? Okay then. Didn't realise a key fundamental of the game was directly correlated with Pep. Not to add that completely contradicts your earlier point, but okay. I guess when we dominate posession against the small teams, we are also trying to emulate Pep? Feck, must be a feckton of clubs trying to emulate Pep. Bigger clubs (for the most part) are almost always going to dominate or look to find ways to dominate inferior clubs. That's how it's always been and how it always will be, it didn't come to be because of Pep. Clubs weren't oblivious to asserting their dominance before the genius of Pep. That Barca team were able to dominate all other clubs just for that reason - they were better than them. He had 3 players who are amongst the best of their generation coming to their peak and he implement a style for them to flourish. All credit goes to him for that - but let's not pretend he's the father of football because of that, shall we.

For arguments sake let's ignore your contradiction and talk about you claiming "it's about playing on the front foot". That notion didn't come to be because of Pep's Barcelona. They were influential, of course, they were an incredible team, but they weren't the reason for clubs dominating games. Teams were dominating football for long before Pep's bald head reared itself, albeit in different ways of course, which I will touch up on now.

For all this talk of influence etc. it's interesting to see teams over the past few years opting to stray away from that style. Juventus have been very successful being happy to concede posession and play on the counter (doing so and getting the better of a Barca team who dominated posession only a year ago). Bayern won the treble by absolutely dominating Barcelona (who were playing a possession style) due to their sheer strength, pace and power. Madrid have won two CL finals playing a more direct style, happy to concede posession and implement more risk into their style than that conventional Barca side. Just as with Atleti, who have made two finals, beating 'Pep' style teams - both Barca and Pep's own Bayern with defensive, counter-attacking football. Barca themselves have gone away from that style and were adopting a more counter-attacking style with Neymar etc. instead opting for faster transitions.

To claim that style is what all other clubs aspire to - yet completely ignore the fact that clubs have been getting the better of both him and his tactics since his Barca days is what is being narrow, not my views on the whole ordeal.

To claim that Barca team is the template for all other clubs - yet no clubs seem to be trying to go down that route is quite comical. Funnily enough, it seems not even Pep seems to agree with you, as you've stated, even he is adapting his tactics. The fact that he's been getting dished absolute thrashings in Europe over the past few years is proof enough that even though he deserves incredible credit for that Barca team, the players are just as if not even more responsible. They continued to dominate long after he was gone and that was purely down to the genius of Messi.

In fact the one thing you claim is the template for other clubs - is the one weakness I see with Pep. His arrogance. He doesn't adapt as he's too enveloped in his ideals. It's why he's came up short in Europe as of late.

All top managers are evolving the sport, adding to it. Whether or not you believe Pep has been the most influential isn't the discussion. Claiming it's a template for all clubs is where you're wrong. Clubs will always have their own ideals, styles that are synonymous to them. No matter how many Pep's get bred and introduced, there will always be clubs who dominate and win things their own way.

What clubs aspire to do is win trophies. It generates revenue and builds interest. Great football and playing on the front foot helps, but winning trophies is what brings in the money. That's the template all club's follow. That's also the template for most managers. Some of the most successful managers in footballing history haven't always relied on 'playing on the front foot' as they've recognised that. Our very own SAF being a great example of that. He turned us into the juggernaut we are today by implementing his own ideals into the club. He'd play great, swashbuckling football, but he'd also adapt and make things tight if he saw the need to.
 
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Theonas

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@Womp I really hate it when arguments turn into a linguistic squabble. The words mentality, tactics, approach, setup in the footballing context have too much overlap and it is my fault for not being coherent enough. My point was that Guardiola's Barcelona was the first team to win in such a dominant way, not that they decided to play like that and have that mentality. When it used be before the norm that when you go to a fellow top team, you respected them and played a cagey game, they tore that script and tried, more often successfully, than not to impose their game and play on the front foot. That is what I mean by them and that level of dominance and success becoming the standard. Bayern hired Pep to do just that. Real as I pointed out with Zidane are trying to do that. Abramovic offered the moon to Pep to do that. And City built their long term plan around hiring the man who they feel will help them achieve that. That's what I mean by setting a new standard for what constitutes success.

As for the particular tactical approach of Pep, I am not saying everybody is trying to play like Barcelona, I am saying the way they played was copied the most and the most influential since Sacchi's Milan. Not even Pep's other teams play like Barcelona but they do not have to be copied to the letter for them to be the most influential. I am not basing this on my own understanding of tactics as I believe no one on here, not even our dear pundits are qualified to talk about that. I am basing it on the testimonies of people in the business. Just like when film directors or musicians would refer to their influences, football managers tend to mention from a tactical perspective, Michels, Sacchi, Cruyff among others. Guardiola is the latest of that line. There are more disciples of that philosophy today, again that does not mean they follow it to the letter, than any other manager's.

Your last point about trophies, adapting to tactics etc .. is something I feel has been gone through to death on these forums. None of the stuff in that last paragraph is mutually exclusive with any of my arguments really.
 

criticalanalysis

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Right now the obvious candidate would be Weigl

All true except I would also say he still is a limited player in that he will make big mistakes from time to time if he is asked/expected to do more. In an ideal world Pep would have 2009-2011 Yaya there but he doesn't have the legs to do that anymore

So much of City's attack last night came from the flanks with Leroy & Sterling, the former in particular was absolutely destroying Hysaj which you don't see often
This might sound like a lazy argument but a big part of the reason why Fernandinho works imo is because he's physical and athletic, a trait you absolutely need in the premier league especially when he is essentially the only proper central midfield player in the team. I don't know about Weigl but I don't think a Busquets/Alonso/Veratti type could work in this league if Pep continues to play the same sets of players. It's not the technical side, it's the coverage of pitch.

Of course like I said, not many teams are able to be competitive full stop let alone in midfield so it'd be a mute point against 80% of opposition.

And yeah I'd agree a peak Toure/Matic is what would be an 'upgrade'.

I didn't see the game last night but I'd imagine a team that would make KDB/Fernandinho/Silva work for the ball would lessen the threat of all the other attacking players.

It's all theory anyways lol. Right now, they are seriously impressive but the season is long...
 

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I seem to remember for the last 5 years we have been told City will dominate, and every year the CAF doom mongers come out and tell us the tide has turned. City are impressive, and no doubt they will win things sooner or later, but they ought to they spend more on full backs than most spend on strikers.
 

VP89

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I seem to remember for the last 5 years we have been told City will dominate, and every year the CAF doom mongers come out and tell us the tide has turned. City are impressive, and no doubt they will win things sooner or later, but they ought to they spend more on full backs than most spend on strikers.
Tide turning was just a reference to them bring the better team, and they finished above us in the past 4 consecutive seasons.
 

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That seemed the case yesterday but I think in reality what happened was we were playing well, gave away a stupid peno and practically shit ourselves.
We are not near as good as they were but we are pretty much a carbon copy of Pep's Barca tactically now.

Henry nailed it last season and we actually play exactly as he describes in this video now.
Nice watch that.
 

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A lot of people say Pep won because he had great players. The point is that he made them great players. Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta and others by far played their best football under him. When he left Barca were not the same potent force they were when he was there.
 

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A lot of people say Pep won because he had great players. The point is that he made them great players. Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta and others by far played their best football under him. When he left Barca were not the same potent force they were when he was there.
exactly. i'm pretty sure the vast majority who slagged moyes for doing such a poor job here upon taking a championship team into the dumps, wouldn't give pep credit had he been able to maintain SAF's winning ways.

in reality, you can have a great team on paper but it doesn't mean anything without the right manager
 

notcool

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In other words, oversimplifying, Guardiola is a great option for top dogs whereas Jose is a great options for underdogs. If Guardiola becomes available now many big clubs would fire their manager and hire him if given the chance. Even Real wanted him. Jose can have success with top dogs as well but not to the to extent he had with underdogs. He was a relative success at Real but not to the extent they hoped.
Correct. Now the implication of this is we either adopt the underdog mentality to deal with Pep across town or we get rid of Mourinho. Which is it to be?
 

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If I have a team full of world class players, I'd like to have Pep as my manager.
 

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I'd give credit to Jose's talent and say that he would have won CL titles with Barcelona. The squad was full with talent. But, at the same time, I'd say Jose wouldn't have created such an amaizing team. This is where Guardiola's talent comes to the fore: his style can't win titles with Leicester and possibly Porto but it can create great teams when the squad is suitable for his style.

In other words, oversimplifying, Guardiola is a great option for top dogs whereas Jose is a great options for underdogs. If Guardiola becomes available now many big clubs would fire their manager and hire him if given the chance. Even Real wanted him. Jose can have success with top dogs as well but not to the to extent he had with underdogs. He was a relative success at Real but not to the extent they hoped.
To be an "oversimplification", I think you hit the nail on the head here. I agree completely with your assessment of both of them.
 

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I see a lot of unfair belittling Mourinho's accomplishments here. Might as well go further and remind ourselves of how Pep's genius was dealt with by Sir Alex Ferguson. Going into that first Champions League final against Barcelona, we were handily the favorites. But my gosh the bald man made us look like the underdogs. And of course, in the rematch of that final we were again outplayed, out-thought, outclassed. Basically, in comparison to Pep, Sir Alex's football and management was just barbaric and simple minded. Sure, SAF could have won things had he managed that Barcelona team...but he wouldn't have made them into the all-time great team they became under Pep.

Drool. Drool. Drool. It's such a shame we couldn't have signed Pep...

JeeZ the thread title change isn't even an exaggeration considering the massive bias in here.
 

GhastlyHun

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I see a lot of unfair belittling Mourinho's accomplishments here. Might as well go further and remind ourselves of how Pep's genius was dealt with by Sir Alex Ferguson. Going into that first Champions League final against Barcelona, we were handily the favorites. But my gosh the bald man made us look like the underdogs. And of course, in the rematch of that final we were again outplayed, out-thought, outclassed. Basically, in comparison to Pep, Sir Alex's football and management was just barbaric and simple minded. Sure, SAF could have won things had he managed that Barcelona team...but he wouldn't have made them into the all-time great team they became under Pep.

Drool. Drool. Drool. It's such a shame we couldn't have signed Pep...

JeeZ the thread title change isn't even an exaggeration considering the massive bias in here.
Looking for bias? Have a look at that poll ;)
 

do.ob

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I see a lot of unfair belittling Mourinho's accomplishments here. Might as well go further and remind ourselves of how Pep's genius was dealt with by Sir Alex Ferguson. Going into that first Champions League final against Barcelona, we were handily the favorites. But my gosh the bald man made us look like the underdogs. And of course, in the rematch of that final we were again outplayed, out-thought, outclassed. Basically, in comparison to Pep, Sir Alex's football and management was just barbaric and simple minded. Sure, SAF could have won things had he managed that Barcelona team...but he wouldn't have made them into the all-time great team they became under Pep.

Drool. Drool. Drool. It's such a shame we couldn't have signed Pep...

JeeZ the thread title change isn't even an exaggeration considering the massive bias in here.

So Klopp's Liverpool would be Pep's Barcelona side in this analogy?
 

TotalFootballOne

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Mou CL win with Porto was amazing, however I feel when people discuss it they leave out a lot of context.

Klopp Dortmund and Simone Atletico were more underdogs then Mou 03-04 Porto.
 

Sterling Archer

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Mou CL win with Porto was amazing, however I feel when people discuss it they leave out a lot of context.

Klopp Dortmund and Simone Atletico were more underdogs then Mou 03-04 Porto.
Did Klopp and Simeone win the Champions League? No. And that changes who is remembered more favorably.

As an aside, where is the Zidane worship thread? Back to back Champions League titles, three in four years...that's unrivaled.

These are all great managers. Each unique. I just hope ours writes the better history in coming seasons.
 

padr81

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Did Klopp and Simeone win the Champions League? No. And that changes who is remembered more favorably.

As an aside, where is the Zidane worship thread? Back to back Champions League titles, three in four years...that's unrivaled.

These are all great managers. Each unique. I just hope ours writes the better history in coming seasons.
You do realize the thread was originally called "Is it fair to criticize Guardiola at this point" and the name change was a bit of banter between whoever changed it and the OP?
 

Sterling Archer

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You do realize the thread was originally called "Is it fair to criticize Guardiola at this point" and the name change was a bit of banter between whoever changed it and the OP?
Indeed, which is why it's funny to see a string of good results for city turn this thread into overdrive for praise. Just trying to do my bit as a biased United fan to bring us back to earth :)
 

padr81

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Indeed, which is why it's funny to see a string of good results for city turn this thread into overdrive for praise. Just trying to do my bit as a biased United fan to bring us back to earth :)
It's kind of weird actually, you'd never get a thread like this in most other club forums but I guess that shows the maturity of the place and the fact you guys poke fun at each other as opposed to any real Pep love in. It's kind of weird for me not having to approach all the City/Pep threads with battle armor on as a lot of United fans are doing it for me.
 

Sterling Archer

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It's kind of weird actually, you'd never get a thread like this in most other club forums but I guess that shows the maturity of the place and the fact you guys poke fun at each other as opposed to any real Pep love in. It's kind of weird for me not having to approach all the City/Pep threads with battle armor on as a lot of United fans are doing it for me.
Don't mistake it for maturity. I think most United fans, including myself have completely lost our sh*t.

I was born in 1987 to a United supporting family. It wasn't really until the very late 90s, 2000s that I can say I truly appreciated and understood some of the intricacies of football. But think about that - practically my entire life and love for football was predicated on winning. As a United fan raised in our golden years under our most successful manager and many a phenomenal player I knew football only as it related to winning or being close to winning.

And then SAF retired and along came Moyes. And then Van Gaal. Records toppled. Status quo in English football shaken. You think that was easy to take? No. Feck that. I barely understood what was going on. And I'm one of the more optimistic of fans!

That ordeal has screwed with perspective. Even during Sir Alex's reign you had fickle fans unable to handle comparably minor setbacks with the whole Sack Fergie Sell Giggs nonsense. Imagine how those fans are now..think they have hair left? Think they feel anything but jealousy looking over at some of our neighbors? I doubt there's much graciousness left.

So I don't think it's good natured banter for the most part here. It's fans so uncomfortable with having lost the certainty of success that they'll go crawling to any shiny thing (manager, player or club) with envy and lust.

Credit to other managers and teams where it's due; competition and rivalry is good. But feck me I'm behind our manager, our team until they're not...whether by their choice or the board's. Win or lose. I want to win. But I accept I was spoiled in a different era before financial doping became commonplace and I'm willing as a fan to keep suffering thru the misery in hopes of more glory with this team. It'll only be sweeter.
 

padr81

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Don't mistake it for maturity. I think most United fans, including myself have completely lost our sh*t.

I was born in 1987 to a United supporting family. It wasn't really until the very late 90s, 2000s that I can say I truly appreciated and understood some of the intricacies of football. But think about that - practically my entire life and love for football was predicated on winning. As a United fan raised in our golden years under our most successful manager and many a phenomenal player I knew football only as it related to winning or being close to winning.

And then SAF retired and along came Moyes. And then Van Gaal. Records toppled. Status quo in English football shaken. You think that was easy to take? No. Feck that. I barely understood what was going on. And I'm one of the more optimistic of fans!

That ordeal has screwed with perspective. Even during Sir Alex's reign you had fickle fans unable to handle comparably minor setbacks with the whole Sack Fergie Sell Giggs nonsense. Imagine how those fans are now..think they have hair left? Think they feel anything but jealousy looking over at some of our neighbors? I doubt there's much graciousness left.

So I don't think it's good natured banter for the most part here. It's fans so uncomfortable with having lost the certainty of success that they'll go crawling to any shiny thing (manager, player or club) with envy and lust.

Credit to other managers and teams where it's due; competition and rivalry is good. But feck me I'm behind our manager, our team until they're not...whether by their choice or the board's. Win or lose. I want to win. But I accept I was spoiled in a different era before financial doping became commonplace and I'm willing as a fan to keep suffering thru the misery in hopes of more glory with this team. It'll only be sweeter.
Interesting take on it. I guess its different from my view on things because I've had the opposite and being a City fan since 85. So I'm used of winning sweet feck all and losing a lot, so maybe look at things with less expectation (part of me still expects us to "City" this start up). I have kind of a if you can't laugh at yourself attitude to football because believe me as far as you guys have fallen, you've never had to turn off the tv after 82 minutes vs Gillingham in league One bad.

Of course financial doping has benefited us hugely, honestly I can only now start to realise how United fans looked at the game. When we won our first trophy (FA Cup) and first league I went mental. Now I find winning the league Cup underwhelming and pointless so I guess a touch of that is creeping in to myself too. I don't think any team in England can dominate like you did anymore. I have a feeling the titles will be shared between 3 and maybe the odd Spurs trophy here and there (if they continue on their upward trajectory).

Good and honest post mate. Fair play.
 

Manchester Dan

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Not sure how true this is, but I just read that in 9 league games City have conceded just 14 shots on target this season. If so, I think that’s partly our defence but also partly down to how quickly Ederson comes off his line for any ball remotely in behind the back 4.
 
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