Is our CM situation any worse than it was during our last title win?

[meamth]

People want their new shiny midfield star.

McT and Fred with our fire power is enough to win something.

See Henderson and Wijnaldum.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

As is our job if we aim to catch them.

And Aguerro was finished, he hardly played last year. He got what, 4 goals in the league?

Yeah only 4 goals.

But no squad is perfect. Some people on here are pretending that we're going up against 3 teams full of world class players with zero holes in the squad.

Our CM situation isn't ideal, but we have enough quality in the side. It's all on Ole to extract the maximum from the team.

 

[Suedesi]

Yet somehow I am skeptical he is clever enough to fix our midfield conundrum

 

[CloneMC16]

just a reminder

Absolutely fantastic player. I defend Fred a lot, but I know his quality is nowhere near Carrick. Loved watching him play. If a Carrick regen exists, I hope we can sign him at some point.

 

[Borys]

Maybe it was a bit better to what we have right now, but we struggled to control games and I never felt like we won a game because of midfield. Also I think Carrick and Scholes in current United team would have it very difficult.

It's been over a decade since we had a fully functional midfield, Fergie neglected it in his last years and Ole seems to be doing the same. At the very least, he has no idea what to do about it (McFred seems to be the only working combination).

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I would say yes 100% because Carrick with whoever he had at that time in 12/13 will shit on them easily no debate. Our current ones will be in the mud compared to Carrick alone while Pogba is not even a CM since his best role with us is on the left. Although, McTominay is better than Cleverley. Fred at his best better than Cleverley but he’s far worse than Cleverley at worst day.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Maybe it was a bit better to what we have right now, but we struggled to control games and I never felt like we won a game because of midfield. Also I think Carrick and Scholes in current United team would have it very difficult.

It's been over a decade since we had a fully functional midfield, Fergie neglected it in his last years and Ole seems to be doing the same. At the very least, he has no idea what to do about it (McFred seems to be the only working combination).

Pogba might be a good passer but he doesn’t have the brain to dictate the tempo. He’s more an attacking mid than a deep midfielder. Without at least this one player who can dictate the tempo, we would never control the game. And then in additional, we have Fred who can give the ball away easily which adding more issue in already our existing problem.

 

[tenpoless]

Carrick >>>> Matic
Cleverley < McTomminay
Anderson < Fred (only because Anderson could only play for 65 minutes)

4 > vs 2 <
Our current midfield lose

 

[slored1]

Nope, but we had a GOAT of a manager who won 5 of the last 7 EPLs and lost the other 2 by goal difference and 1 point.

Right now it's hard even to say under what category we can class Ole

This. The man won the league with Cleverley, Anderson and very old Giggs/Scholes.

He'd walk the league now probably.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Not really comparable as the level of the other 3 top teams is much better drilled than it was in 2013.

 

[Gordon S]

Our midfield hasn´t been great since about 08-09, and neither has our team. It is such an important part of the team and i don´t think we will look great again until we improve our midfield options.

 

[FrantikChicken]

I don't think it was better. Yes Carrick was a fantastic midfielder but we actually got ran over in the middle quite often that season. We'd score and then let the opposition put pressure on us and lose leads etc. It was actually not very pretty and often frustrating. I think people are romanticising it a bit, but that's just my memory of that time.

 

[Volumiza]

I think people are romanticising it a bit, but that's just my memory of that time.

Your memory is the same as mine. Some of our football in the last couple of years of SAF’s time here was pretty sh*t and I remember being very frustrated too. Great win for Fergie to sign off on but it definitely glossed over some massive flaws and deficiencies in our squad.

 

[Idxomer]

just look at how Carrick positioned himself to receive and pass the ball. There's no unnecessary touch, he release the ball at the right time most of the time. Pogba was supposed to play like this, but the timing of his passes is incredibly off. He took way too long on the ball and opportunities were lost

Only if you've never watched before coming back to United.

 

[Drizzle]

The difference is that the standard in the league is much higher at the moment. Also, that team was managed by SAF.

 

[Judas]

Only if you've never watched before coming back to United.

Thats most Utd fans to be fair. They believed wrongly Pogba was a totally different player to the one he is. Imagine getting angry and baffled due to their own ignorance of a player.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

People want their new shiny midfield star.

McT and Fred with our fire power is enough to win something.

See Henderson and Wijnaldum.

Both of them are better on the ball and more consistent than Fred to be honest.

 

[Oranges038]

Not 2012 Scholes

2021 Scholes would probably still be better.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

12/13 Carrick in this team would win us the league. No doubt. It's the one missing piece. That and maybe a more complete right back, but AWB's strengths are still incredibly valuable.

But I don't think we need a world class addition for right now. Just a functional one. Even someone like Neves would improve us, in quality and depth. Pogba looks likely to be part of the front 4 more than CM, leaving us with only 3 real CM options for 50+ games.

 

[reelworld]

Only if you've never watched before coming back to United.

No, I mean Pogba supposed to play like that by Ole tactics.
Otherwise why put him in the double pivot with Fred in the first place and have him launch those searching ball from deep?

 

[darioterios]

Maybe it was a bit better to what we have right now, but we struggled to control games and I never felt like we won a game because of midfield. Also I think Carrick and Scholes in current United team would have it very difficult.

It's been over a decade since we had a fully functional midfield, Fergie neglected it in his last years and Ole seems to be doing the same. At the very least, he has no idea what to do about it (McFred seems to be the only working combination).

On the contrary, I think they will enjoy it since the dirty hard work will be done by the likes of McFred, leaving them free to focus on positioning and delivering passes

 

[Tom Van Persie]

No, but I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

Back then Mac City didn't have Pep, Liverpool were in shambles, Chelsea were not quite a shambles but a poor Di Matteo team and so on. The competition was far weaker compared to now and we had Fergie back then.

I severely doubt peak Fergie would win the title with our current midfield against this level of opposition. Never mind Ole.

With our current squad we would be right up there. He would have a field day with our attackers.

 

[hungrywing]

38 year old Scholes who couldn't even start ahead of Tom Cleverley... This myth that Scholes was still the best midfielder in the league until he retired needs to end, he can probably still pass the ball better than anyone on the planet to this day but it doesn't mean he can start in our midfield, elite teams need players in their physical prime. As early as 08/09 Scholes had periods where he wasn't starting games and missed out on the big games which demonstrates his decline started a lot earlier than people will admit, you need legs in midfield.

There's a reason our midfield was considered a weakness for years, Giggs and Scholes were on their last legs, Hargreaves never returned, Fletcher got ill and Anderson was never good enough. Cleverley came in and did ok for a bit but quickly realised he wasn't up to it. Carrick was holding it together almost single handedly.

Ferguson got the best out the squads he had but I don't think he'd have got away with that midfield had he been competing for the league against Pep's City and Klopp's Liverpool who averaged about 99 points 3 seasons on the bounce for example, so it's worth remembering how successful you can be is always relative to the level of the competition.

Thank you for acknowledging the bolded part.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

No I don't think it is. I mean at that point we hadn't signed a first team midfielder in 6 years..... 6 years!!!! utterly mental I was starting to think fergie was trolling us by the end.

 

[Lentwood]

People want their new shiny midfield star.

McT and Fred with our fire power is enough to win something.

See Henderson and Wijnaldum.

Henderson and Wijnaldum are MILES better than McTominay and Fred. I'm a big McT fan, but he is still rough around the edges. Fred...well...I cannot speak.

 

[hmchan]

just look at how Carrick positioned himself to receive and pass the ball. There's no unnecessary touch, he release the ball at the right time most of the time. Pogba was supposed to play like this, but the timing of his passes is incredibly off. He took way too long on the ball and opportunities were lost

Strange to see this as Pogba made two one-touch long passes to Bruno last match and created opportunities. Most of the time he wants to release the ball, it's just that the lack of movement up front forces him to hold onto the ball (and sometimes too long).

 

[Loon]

By no means a slight on Solskjaer, but the CM situation for our last title was overseen by one of the greatest man-managers in the game. He could Jedi mindtrick the most average player into being a world-beater.

 

[Solius]

No but the quality of the opposition coupled with most teams having a very aggressive press these days means it's not the same.

 

[hmchan]

People want their new shiny midfield star.

McT and Fred with our fire power is enough to win something.

See Henderson and Wijnaldum.

True. Henderson was heavily criticized and Wijnaldum was no midfield star either before he joined Liverpool. Technically they aren't much better than Fred and McTominay, they just perform well because Klopp extracts the maximum from them.

 

[meamth]

True. Henderson was heavily criticized and Wijnaldum was no midfield star either before he joined Liverpool. Technically they aren't much better than Fred and McTominay, they just perform well because Klopp extracts the maximum from them.

Yes, I share this view that enough firepower + defensive steel can win you titles.

Wijnaldum and Henderson ran their socks off, why can't Fred and McTominay can do the same.

We have world class fire power now, Varane and Maguire, with Shaw and Bissaka, is top quality defense, we can win something this season.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Carrick at that point was capable of running the show himself and making sure Scholes' immobility was covered.

This lot we have now complement each other in no way whatsoever.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Sir Alex?

 

[Kostov]

Present:
Matic
McTominay
Fred
van de Beek
Pogba

2012-13:
Cleverley
Anderson
Carrick
Post-illness Fletcher
Post-retirement Scholes

Bar Cleverley, I'd take every single one of that 2013 midfield before Matic and Fred. Add to that, VdB rarely even plays, and Pogba seems to prefer to play in another role. so yeah, we are in worse position imo.

 

[FrantikChicken]

Your memory is the same as mine. Some of our football in the last couple of years of SAF’s time here was pretty sh*t and I remember being very frustrated too. Great win for Fergie to sign off on but it definitely glossed over some massive flaws and deficiencies in our squad.

Exactly. I also remember a lot of complaining on here about our general play, the lineups etc. Nobody remembers now because at the end of the day it was enough to win at the time.

 

[Chief123]

Present:
Matic
McTominay
Fred
van de Beek
Pogba

2012-13:
Cleverley
Anderson
Carrick
Post-illness Fletcher
Post-retirement Scholes

The more important point is that despite whether you think it’s any better or weaker than our last title win, the truth is the rival teams around us are significantly better than what they were when we last won the title.

The baseline has always got to be against the best team(s) in the current moment and not what we previously had. Our last title winning team would most likely not win the league this season.

 

[Suedesi]

just a reminder


...

that team often got out-pressed (yesterday's game would have been a bloodbath), but having a DM as the one classy midfielder rather than a AM (Pogba) automatically balanced the team better.

Quite an underrated player.

Recall that a lot of fans didn't warm up to Carrick until fairly late because he wasn't Roy Keane

 

[Litch]

Quite an underrated player.

Recall that a lot of fans didn't warm up to Carrick until fairly late because he wasn't Roy Keane

Spot on. Said he was one paced and also said with his ability on the ball, should score more goals. His game was probably better suited to today's football than the combative style then......

 

[Cassidy]

The more important point is that despite whether you think it’s any better or weaker than our last title win, the truth is the rival teams around us are significantly better than what they were when we last won the title.

The baseline has always got to be against the best team(s) in the current moment and not what we previously had. Our last title winning team would most likely not win the league this season.

And we had Fergie

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

No, but I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

Back then Mac City didn't have Pep, Liverpool were in shambles, Chelsea were not quite a shambles but a poor Di Matteo team and so on. The competition was far weaker compared to now and we had Fergie back then.

I severely doubt peak Fergie would win the title with our current midfield against this level of opposition. Never mind Ole.

Our team now as a whole is way better than what Fergie had. I don't know whether Fergie can beat Pep over the course of a whole season though.

 

[Maticmaker]

The real issue in mid field has been the lack of a good defensive player.

Carrick was capable in his early days at West Ham and Spurs of being creative, but when he arrived at OT he wasn't as good as Scholsey, so took on the DM role. We've never filled in the hole left by Carrick. In his later years Carrick for a while did play about ten yards further up the pitch, but at the time with Evra's legs and Rio's going, he couldn't stir to far forward from patrolling in front of the back four.

Matic when he arrived did give us one or two good seasons of DM play, which kept us going, but he was never the answer because his age and in particular his legs (and back) were going and as others have pointed out whilst he may still have the head for it, the rest of him can only do an hour at best.

Pogba, as we saw against Leeds also played (the additional ten yards) further up the pitch and had a stormer, but when he has to defend he's not what we need, even when he does 'bust a gut', his mind set is not as a DM. Felt sorry for him against Wolves, because when he tried to move forward into good centre-mid strike areas, the three (albeit fastest forwards) lacked experience and didn't provide the craft needed, it was only late on that when James went off that Sancho and Greenwood began some inter-change positional play around Cavani that helped Pogba find his mark.

Looks like we will need to find another emergency DM, could be Lindelof? Or (say it quietly) Phil Jones, just to patrol in-front of the back four and let Pogba and Bruno do their stuff further up the pitch, especially if CR's going to be around.