Is there anyone left who wants to defend lvg now?

[RedFish]

If it were a viable option to sack half the team, it would be worth considering....Alas, LVG will pay for his inability to motivate the (mostly) spineless players (and assistants) under his charge. He will go now, of that I'm sure, but the blame lies not solely with him. Angry is not the word....

 

[K2K]

I think he's simply not a very good manager and three previous sackings seem to attest to that. At Barca, Bayern and Ajax, he was gifted an amazing set of players who I'm beginning to suspect were successful despite his presence and not because of it.

Perhaps following Moyes we were happy with anyone, when we should've been more circumspect about LVG's suitability for the job - after all he was never considered as a good option to replace Ferguson originally and justifiably so.

He built up the Ajax team, and I'd attribute that success to him.

He was quite a good tactician at Barca (the first reign), but like he here,talked too much and rubbed a lot people the wrong way. But since that reign he's had more failures that successes

Sacked by the Netherlands for failing to qualify for the world cup.

Sacked by Barca within 6 months.

His struggles here.

Read a stat that he's won 19 titles in his career, but 15 of those came before the turn of the millenium.

So its more a case of what he implied last week : he was a very good manager

 

[ghagua]

This sudden shift of blame to our apparently 'cowardly, gutless and retched' squad players is just so irritating and predictable. It happened exactly the same way during Moyes' season because god help us if we determine that the team selections, tactics and instructions from the manager aren't good enough. There was hardly a word about this relegation quality, evil, deceiving group of players until the last 2 games when the shít truly began to hit the fan, why now? Because there's literally feck all to defend Van Gaal with? Seeing as he looks like a goner now and has nothing to justify his position there's a drive to paint him as the unlucky one that was wronged by the squad of players (most of whom he brought in) that are literally worse than Hitler, by the pathetic press that would dare question him and finally by the greedy, glory hunting fans that simply expected far too much and should be happy with their lot. Give over, the man failed in his job, both parties should move on and get over it, really not that big of a deal.

Also there's a grand conspiracy that the 'old boys' like Giggs/ Scholes/Neville are working in conjunction with the tabloids and are collaborating to undermine and bring Van Gaal down, apparently, because that sounds reasonable.

I would rep the hell out of this post if we had a rep system.

 

[ghagua]

Some people would rather blame anyone but the manager. He's been here almost 2 years and he's the one that built the squad, he's the one that built the coaching team, he's the one that brought the philosophy (stupid fecking nonsense in my opinion), he's the one that spent a shit load of money and taken us backwards. The buck stops with him, plain and simple

Something so simple yet so hard for some people to understand. Even if the players have quit on him, who's fault is that?

 

[RoadTrip]

Something so simple yet so hard for some people to understand. Even if the players have quit on him, who's fault is that?

Bit of his fault, and a bit of their fault.

LVG needs to be sacked and I'm not defending him, but if we want to ignore all the other problems we have at this club and assume changing the manager is all we need, we would be making a fatal mistake.

 

[Danny_]

Sacking the manager was supposed to fix things and it didn't. Maybe, a bit of patience is what's needed.

 

[Ødegaard]

Sacking the manager was supposed to fix things and it didn't. Maybe, a bit of patience is what's needed.

No.
Hire better managers if you want patience and be a no sacking club.

 

[Revan]

It's not


It's not just about the transfers, but how the club was run under Gill in general. The fact that we are heavily engaged in the transfer market doesn't make Ed a good football man. There have been many threads about how we have been overpaying for talent. Can't blame Ed for all of it because of market factors but if you are the CEO then the buck stops with you.

Better to overpay for talent rather than not sign Hazard because of 6m difference (or probably lower).

 

[Judas]

I think if the players still were buying into what he was selling we'd see better performances, we certainly did at certain points last season, but that seems like a long long time ago now.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Better to overpay for talent rather than not sign Hazard because of 6m difference (or probably lower).

Well, one won the league, other has 4th as a trophy, so not sure which is better tbf.

 

[Santiago_KinderBueno]

No.
Hire better managers if you want patience and be a no sacking club.

Why is this forum filled with this lauvhing smiley.

The two best clubs in the world - barcelona & bayern rely less on managers than any other team in the world. Look at real madrid and their scrapings every couple years whether that be mourinho or benitez. Look at city. Look at chelsea.

Do you want to be like that? The secret to success is to have a squad that can be managed by any tom dick and harry.

Guardiola hasn't won a CL with this bayern squad (he really should) but ultimately no bayern fans will have any sleepless nights because their squad is greater than their manager. If guardiola cant do it then ancelotti will. Simple.

Chasing after managers and giving managers some sort of king's throne can lead to short fixes as well as long term troubles.

If someone as great as guardiola cant win a CL thhs far with a squad filled with robben, robery, lewandowski, gotze, costa, boateng, neurer etc- why do you think he could win a title at all with a squad full of vidic, rio, evra, cleverely or right now with fellaini, mata rooney?

Squad first. Manager 2nd.

 

[Revan]

Well, one won the league, other has 4th as a trophy, so not sure which is better tbf.

Berlusconi is the best football CEO ever then, right?

 

[Sammyjunn]

Berlusconi is the best football CEO ever then, right?

Dont know what you're on about, AC Milan havent been winning trophies/the league?

 

[edn33]

Moyes spent so much less and got the boot. Now LVG has spent tonnes and we are still looking like shite. I would like to think it's the manager that makes the team...LVG sold many players and some of them were good ie Nani, Chicha and Raphael...

I think... enough of this philosophy shite.... let's just bring in Mourinho fast. He is destined to manage MU anyway.

 

[Revan]

Dont know what you're on about, AC Milan havent been winning trophies/the league?

He won UCL five times or so, best ever CEO?

I find the Ed bashing and talking for Gill like a mythical figure who had never done anything wrong a bit weird and stupid. What did Gill exactly do to consider him that great? He never had to deal with changing managers and actually the manager who worked under him was even more powerful than him and did many things that manager don't. He was atrocious in transfer market, although that might not be completely his fault (it might be Glazers, it might be SAF). The financial department when we shined was leaded by Woodward, anyway.

Woodward has shown that at least he is very efficient in the transfer market if the manager has clear targets. He has signed 16 players in 30 months here, and has shown that he isn't afraid to overpay if the manager really wants a player (Moyes on Fellaini, LVG on Di Maria and Martial). Not his fault that the managers have been total losers and seem to not have a fecking clue on what they want.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I don't get why we changed our course so much since the end of last year. The 433 was working well and we had a good pattern to our play.

Yes it relied on fellaini a little too much, but we could have adapted it to work with a more fluid midfielder.

Instead though we ripped it up and went 4231 which didn't suit our team at all, and all that great chemistry the team Showed has disappeared. Whether that was giggs influence we will never know.

The worst mistake is lvg making the squad so small. We already have an injury prone team, and selling Nani, Rafael and Hernandez with no replacements has killed us. Loaning Wilson and Januzaj also further put us in trouble, there's no way we can keep at 100% in 3 competitions, we were bound to burn out.

 

[UnitedinRed]

Something so simple yet so hard for some people to understand. Even if the players have quit on him, who's fault is that?

Lol. So the players have zero responsibility?

Wow.

 

[phelans shorts]

Lol. So the players have zero responsibility?

Wow.

His job is to manage. If every single player isn't playing well for whatever reason that is his fault, as he clearly isn't doing his job.

Simple.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Sacking the manager was supposed to fix things and it didn't. Maybe, a bit of patience is what's needed.

One of the most consistent themes of his tenure has been a failure to learn from his mistakes, why be patient with a fool? This isn't a young man who could claim of lack of experience or naivety and will develop if supported, he's set in his ways and contemplating a string of round-the-world cruises.

 

[Esquire]

Better to overpay for talent rather than not sign Hazard because of 6m difference (or probably lower).

Don't know about the history of that, but what I will ask is this, are you suggesting Ed is a better exec than David Gill when it comes to pure footballing and transfer decisions?

 

[POF]

Why is this forum filled with this lauvhing smiley.

The two best clubs in the world - barcelona & bayern rely less on managers than any other team in the world. Look at real madrid and their scrapings every couple years whether that be mourinho or benitez. Look at city. Look at chelsea.

Do you want to be like that? The secret to success is to have a squad that can be managed by any tom dick and harry.

Guardiola hasn't won a CL with this bayern squad (he really should) but ultimately no bayern fans will have any sleepless nights because their squad is greater than their manager. If guardiola cant do it then ancelotti will. Simple.

Chasing after managers and giving managers some sort of king's throne can lead to short fixes as well as long term troubles.

If someone as great as guardiola cant win a CL thhs far with a squad filled with robben, robery, lewandowski, gotze, costa, boateng, neurer etc- why do you think he could win a title at all with a squad full of vidic, rio, evra, cleverely or right now with fellaini, mata rooney?

Squad first. Manager 2nd.

Your overall point isn't a bad one but not sure why you would use these 3 as an example. Vidic, Rio and Evra were the cornerstone of an incredibly successful United team. The success of those teams was built on that defence. Boateng is nowhere near as good a defender as Vidic and Rio at their best.

 

[Esquire]

Lol. So the players have zero responsibility?

Wow.

The players absolutely share a huge responsibility but I think the guy's point is that if you are in a position of management ultimately you bear overall responsibility, that's fair.

Turning to the players, I suspect whatever the outcome this year, a number of them will not be here after this summer.

 

[Revan]

Don't know about the history of that, but what I will ask is this, are you suggesting Ed is a better exec than David Gill when it comes to pure footballing and transfer decisions?

I don't know that. However, he has been more efficient than Gill in both selling and buying players. Now, was that because of circumstances (like Glazers deciding to give more money to him, or LVG/Moyes being more happy to spend lots of money than SAF), or for some other reason, is something that we don't know.

To be fair, I find the CEO discussion as stupid as assistant manager discussion. We see only the surface of their job, and we don't have most of the info. Saying that, Ed was shown to be very capable in financial aspect of the clubs, and has been shown to be very efficient in signing players. I cannot blame him for LVG/Moyes' failures.

I have been advocating since Fergie left that we need to get a director of football. He would make the job more easy both for Ed and for the manager.

 

[UnitedinRed]

The players absolutely share a huge responsibility but I think the guy's point is that if you are in a position of management ultimately you bear overall responsibility, that's fair.

Turning to the players, I suspect whatever the outcome this year, a number of them will not be here after this summer.

Let's just hope their attitudes improve. Worryingly, sone have now gone through two managers they didn't feel required any actual effort.

Feel bad for the next guy. At least Jose would crucify them, I guess. Though he will then be sacked while they remain, undermining the manager and the club.

 

[Nani Nana]

I remember when I joined RedCafe and for 3 years there was not even the slightest post on managerial changes at MUFC

Oh times how they've changed

 

[Esquire]

Let's just hope their attitudes improve. Worryingly, sone have now gone through two managers they didn't feel required any actual effort.

Feel bad for the next guy. At least Jose would crucify them, I guess. Though he will then be sacked while they remain, undermining the manager and the club.

Think that the board and Ed learned another valuable lesson here (I hope), that the attitude and lack of leadership in the playing staff also need addressing.

 

[gooDevil]

Play Jordan at center, Pippen at PG, Rodman at SG and Harper at the 4 and even the Legendary Bulls teams wouldnt make the playoffs.

 

[Rozay]

I'm starting to think that I want him to leave, but not because I think he is the one that is losing us games. I just think the the environment is becoming too toxic and isn't helping everyone.

I watched the game yesterday, started fairly even, and then Memphis makes a stupid error and Stoke score. My first thought was that this will of course be Van Gaal's fault. It obviously isn't - but the narrative has taken off now and can't be stopped. It is the times that we live in, but I genuinely believe that the media have encroached their boundaries in the modern game. They don't just report what happens, they lead the narrative, and they build pressure and ultimately get manager's sacked. They target individual players and turn general opinion (which is equivalent to that of an 8 year old anyway) against them.

This situation has reached a climax. I admit are results (recently) have not been good enough. The pressure began well before that though, when we were first or second in the league. A culmination of tweets from rent-a-hacks, words of wisdom from the likes of Shearer and Linekar, or the former United players they have been relentlessly tracking down to ask their opinion on how many shots we have and how much it betrays our traditions, despite us being near the top. Now the last bit, which should have actually been the first bit, has happened in that our results have nosedived and now validated their campaign. They now continue to reference the 'large sections of United fans' that support their agenda, which is something they have been trying to engineer amonget the United fans for months, for no other reason than that every season needs a United story.

Anyway, a change of scenery will probably help everyone now. I just can't help but feel Van Gaal has been treated unfairly.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

IA

Even after Norwich there were a few apologists left

Have you changed your minds or do you stick by your convictions?

Im sticking by mine. Senior attackers have let him down badly and he is now limping ala Fergie in 89, paying the price. Only board support or a major miracle turn of form win vs Chelsea can save him.

 

[Spoony]

IA

Im sticking by mine. Senior attackers have let him down badly and he is now limping ala Fergie in 89, paying the price. Only board support or a major miracle turn of form win vs Chelsea can save him.

Thus sayeth Emko...Okem...Kemo or whatever.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

My problem is that these players have underperformed vis a vis potential. Todays tactics did not debate us, it was players not performing. Of course that is ultimately the managers job to crate the right system and motivate players to play with confidence. But it was again self committed errors and very poor finishing that cost us. Im not sure how a new manager magically changes that problem in the space of 2 games.

that last sentence is the biggest worry of all unless players have been carrying out a mutiny ala chelsea......

 

[Cheesy]

Why is this forum filled with this lauvhing smiley.

The two best clubs in the world - barcelona & bayern rely less on managers than any other team in the world. Look at real madrid and their scrapings every couple years whether that be mourinho or benitez. Look at city. Look at chelsea.

Do you want to be like that? The secret to success is to have a squad that can be managed by any tom dick and harry.

Guardiola hasn't won a CL with this bayern squad (he really should) but ultimately no bayern fans will have any sleepless nights because their squad is greater than their manager. If guardiola cant do it then ancelotti will. Simple.

Chasing after managers and giving managers some sort of king's throne can lead to short fixes as well as long term troubles.

If someone as great as guardiola cant win a CL thhs far with a squad filled with robben, robery, lewandowski, gotze, costa, boateng, neurer etc- why do you think he could win a title at all with a squad full of vidic, rio, evra, cleverely or right now with fellaini, mata rooney?

Squad first. Manager 2nd.

I always find this argument a bit silly. Guardiola's not won the CL with Bayern yet, but that hardly makes him a failure. You do realise the Champions League is hard to win, right? That's why no club has managed to retain the trophy in its current format.

That's why many managers with great sides often struggle to win it. Guardiola's been up against some superb sides, for example, and has only been at Bayern for a couple of years. Even with one of the best squads in the competition, winning it is hardly a foregone conclusion, especially since cup competitions can be more unpredictable than league ones. Not to mention that Bayern are probably one of the two or three main contenders for the trophy this year.

Look at Fergie, for example. Legendary manager who sustained success with us for 20 years. Yet even he could only manage to win it twice for us.

 

[SteveJ]

There's little point in defending LVG these days, as even he might admit that it hasn't worked & isn't going to work. I wish people would stop with the ageist "he's senile" rubbish though; it's insulting as hell.

 

[Red Dreams]

Fergie won it twice and went to 2 finals losing to a Barcelona team that is considered the best of all time by some. The manager is the key imo.

 

[Sultan]

They now continue to reference the 'large sections of United fans' that support their agenda, which is something they have been trying to engineer amonget the United fans for months, for no other reason than that every season needs a United story.

That's somewhat unfair suggesting we gobble up media's narrative. We see what we've been watching.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I always find this argument a bit silly. Guardiola's not won the CL with Bayern yet, but that hardly makes him a failure. You do realise the Champions League is hard to win, right?

The problem is he hasn't put in a decent challenge for two years. You can get beaten by Real or Barca, but he got humiliated.

Not to mention that Bayern are probably one of the two or three main contenders for the trophy this year.

They were supposed to be a main contender last year and the year before to.

 

[Cheesy]

The problem is he hasn't put in a decent challenge for two years. You can get beaten by Real or Barca, but he got humiliated.

They were supposed to be a main contender last year and the year before to.

Reaching the semis on both occasions is hardly awful, though. And they weren't really humiliated by Barca last year; a very poor defeat in the first leg that they tried, but failed, to claw back. Not brilliant, I'll admit, but again this assumption that top squads will sail to CL victory is daft. It doesn't work like that at all. Fergie took over five years of success with us before he was able to win his first one.

 

[Member 60376]

I'm starting to think that I want him to leave, but not because I think he is the one that is losing us games. I just think the the environment is becoming too toxic and isn't helping everyone.

I watched the game yesterday, started fairly even, and then Memphis makes a stupid error and Stoke score. My first thought was that this will of course be Van Gaal's fault. It obviously isn't - but the narrative has taken off now and can't be stopped. It is the times that we live in, but I genuinely believe that the media have encroached their boundaries in the modern game. They don't just report what happens, they lead the narrative, and they build pressure and ultimately get manager's sacked. They target individual players and turn general opinion (which is equivalent to that of an 8 year old anyway) against them.

This situation has reached a climax. I admit are results (recently) have not been good enough. The pressure began well before that though, when we were first or second in the league. A culmination of tweets from rent-a-hacks, words of wisdom from the likes of Shearer and Linekar, or the former United players they have been relentlessly tracking down to ask their opinion on how many shots we have and how much it betrays our traditions, despite us being near the top. Now the last bit, which should have actually been the first bit, has happened in that our results have nosedived and now validated their campaign. They now continue to reference the 'large sections of United fans' that support their agenda, which is something they have been trying to engineer amonget the United fans for months, for no other reason than that every season needs a United story.

Anyway, a change of scenery will probably help everyone now. I just can't help but feel Van Gaal has been treated unfairly.

Agree with all of this

 

[Sam]

I'm not sure how anyone can defend him. Not just for his time at United, but his record since 2000 is pretty appalling for a 'top manager'...

Holland - Failed
Barcelona - Failed
Bayern - Success then failure and sacked
AZ - Success
Holland II - Limited success
United - Failed

He's won 4 trophies (3 of which were with Bayen in the space of a year) in the last 15 years.

Of the 19 trophies he's won in his career, 11 of them were by 1995 with Ajax (where he was obviously fantastic) and another 4 at Barca by 1999.

Simply put, he's a very very outdated and past it manager.

 

[Rozay]

That's somewhat unfair suggesting we gobble up media's narrative. We see what we've been watching.

I don't think it's unfair. We have been watching what we have been watching, of course, but that data is not processed to the same conclusion without it being packaged as it has been, and pedalled excessively. When I watch a game that doesn't involve United, I consciously count United references - and there are plenty. After Stoke stuffed City a few weeks back, I spent half an hour responding to journalists on twitter who kept going on about how United fans probably wish they could play like that. It is excessive - to not be influenced by it would be odd.

It started in the summer, from not buying a centre half, not buying Pedro, buying Martial, and continued into the season to the point where they all became James Wilson experts. For the majority of the season, all they have actually had on us was less goals than usual. Never before has there been such an emphasis on chances created, especially for a winning team. Now finally, we are actually losing games, they have everything they need.

I've said before, I don't think it is personal against Van Gaal, it is more about their relationship with our club as a whole. They will swarm around us constantly, and look for something to pick at. When Mourinho got sacked, every other tweet was about how it affects United. It must be an almost impossible environment to work within.

Van Gaal has made questionable decisions, agrees. Up until a few weeks ago, it did not warrant the cloud that was forming over us and him. Ultimately, anything short of a string of 4-0 wins like Ferguson apparently used to deliver will have them shoving mics in front of anyone from Scholes to Merson to have a go. It takes it's toll on public opinion especially when 30-40 of all reporting is seemingly about United.