Is there room for RvP and Rooney in the same starting 11?

[Wibble]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ball-news/room-wayne-rooney-robin-van-7374185

I'm thinking not and my mate said he didn't either when we were down the pub last night having a few beers. Conclusive I think you would agree?

 

[pseudo_canadian]

It's always going to be difficult to near impossible to have both RvP and Rooney happy in their preferred positions. For me, no, I don't think it's possible. The only way that would suit both RvP and Rooney while ALSO benefitting the entire starting 11 would be to play a 3-5-2, with RvP and Rooney as the two strikers - and Mata behind them in the hole. Yet playing a 3-5-2 every game isn't entirely feasible.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Yes.

 

[brewlio]

Don't know if they can be accommodated together or not. The main thing for me is that Mata isn't shifted. 12 goals and 12 assists last season once he found his feet showed he's the man for the job playing in the hole.

 

[Varun]

Yes if LVG fancies Rooney as the no 10. Otherwise No. RVP will be the main striker.

 

[Kag]

Not at #9 and #10.

 

[brewlio]

Wayne will be keeping the bench warm for £300k a week this season. Insane, but true.

 

[devilish]

VG has shown that he's ruthless. He will instill some healthy competition between them that's for sure.

 

[Booyakasha]

Yes. But there may not be a place for Rooney, van Persie and Mata in the same team.

 

[Y2A]

I would still prefer Rooney over RVP as our main man. That is if he gives a few fecks.

 

[Bojan11]

No. They both just too slow.

It's not like Dzeko/Negredo and Aguero.

 

[RustyS]

De Gea
Jones Smalling Evans
Rafael------------------------------Shaw
Herrera Carrick
Mata
Rooney RvP
​

Vidal for Carrick and Hummels for one of our CBs would make it a lot better, admittedly.

 

[Empire]

De Gea
Jones Smalling Evans
Rafael------------------------------Shaw
Herrera Carrick
Mata
Rooney RvP
​

Vidal for Carrick and Hummels for one of our CBs would make it a lot better, admittedly.

The problem is that's counter attacking and so you need at least one pacey and direct striker, furthermore it works well when the opponents play a high line but otherwise it probably won't be so good when the opponents park the bus.

 

[Ash_G]

The 352 route is an option that could fit them in but I still think there could be an element of them both wanting to do the same thing and as a result getting in each others way. I think if we played with two wingers who were just looking to get down the line and could reliably put in top quality crosses then it would be less of an issue, but as everyone pretty much floods the middle now and there's been a shift in wingers away from one's who will just stick to their flank then I think it's difficult.

I think though that's what it comes down to, how we want the other supporting players to fit in. If we want wingers who can stay wide but also offer a diagonal run in to the box, which is something we've lacked for some time then I don't think you want Rooney/RVP in the middle as they're not specialists at dropping off and playing those players in. For me you'd want Mata and then a Rooney or RVP. If we want our wide players to keep their width and just be a supply of crossed then you're better of with Rooney/RVP provided the crosses are good rather than a Mata who wouldn't fit in as well without that variety of movement. Horses for courses as they say.

 

[::sonny::]

Rooney could be our Kuyt

 

[ottosec]

Yes. I think we will play some kind of formation that will accommodate them both and Mata behind them.

 

[Theon]

The problem is that's counter attacking and so you need at least one pacey and direct striker, furthermore it works well when the opponents play a high line but otherwise it probably won't be so good when the opponents park the bus.

That's not true really, you don't have to play a 3-5-2 in a counter attacking way. It's not different to any other system, the way you decide to play is more relevant that the actual formation itself. A 4-4-2 for example can be a counter attacking side or play on the front foot, same with all systems.

 

[Plugsy]

Rooney has often over a ten year period not played in his 'prefered' position and has had to change and adapt to accommodate a variety of different strike partners. Why now, a decade on, people have suddenly decided to paint this issue of Rooney having to adapt his game to fit a system is somehow
insurmountable, I have no idea.

I think the eagerness to pretend that somehow arguably one of the most versatile and changable forwards we have had in many years is some kind of one dimensional 'number 9' seemingly as an excuse to leave him out if the team is odd.

 

[Igor Drefljak]

Unless we play 5 ATB as somebody above said, I don't think there is a starting position for him at United.
It's clear Van Gaal is going to fancy RVP as his striker. Mata is clearly a better #10.

Rooney feels like a jack of all trade, master of none right now. He just doesn't have a position.
It's the same for England and United. None of us can fit him in.

I do feel sorry for him though, because he is a good striker, but RVP will always get the nod

 

[CurryCantona]

Big Gayers
Rafael - Jones - Carrick - Evans - Shaw
Vidal - Herrera
Mata
RvP - Rooney
​

I believe that team can work well. Carrick can be a ball playing defender. We have absolutely shite wingers, so it's preferable to play without them. It's imperative we get Vidal - our team is incomplete without him.

 

[Empire]

That's not true really, you don't have to play a 3-5-2 in a counter attacking way. It's not different to any other system, the way you decide to play is more relevant that the actual formation itself. A 4-4-2 for example can be a counter attacking side or play on the front foot, same with all systems.

It is less attacking than Louis van Gaal's preferred 4-2-1-3 and he used 5-3-2 / 3-5-2 because it strengthens the team defensively.

Against Spain they won by 4 goals because of the high line and ability to exploit that with two strikers against two centre backs.

Against Australia they managed to win by 1 goal, Chile 1 goal, Mexico 1 goal, Costa Rica they couldn't even score against. When they have moved to 4-2-1-3 in this tournament because 5-3-2 wasn't breaking the opposition down they have looked more dangerous attacking but more vulnerable defensively.

Although 5-3-2 is less dangerous attacking wise, it is stronger defensively therefore if United have enough quality they could still get enough wins in the premier league, a 1-0 or 3-0 victory yields the same points.

Louis van Gaal will make a decision and probably get it right, with the quality United have it might be good enough especially considering the teams I mentioned above are around the level of the Netherlands yet most teams who will park the bus against United will be of a much inferior quality but I'm quite sure his vision would be to eventually move to 4-2-1-3 especially since he has full control of transfers.

 

[The Man Himself]

I think they can be accommodated together in one team. Mata-Rooney-Januzaj behind RvP moving around dynamically and creating spaces for each other is the ideal scenario I hope to see. Also, yesterday's game shows RvP can be shackled by a disciplined defense and if he is not having a good day, Rooney can be moved up and someone from bench can join in.

 

[Empire]

Rooney has often over a ten year period not played in his 'prefered' position and has had to change and adapt to accommodate a variety of different strike partners. Why now, a decade on, people have suddenly decided to paint this issue of Rooney having to adapt his game to fit a system is somehow
insurmountable, I have no idea.

I think the eagerness to pretend that somehow arguably one of the most versatile and changable forwards we have had in many years is some kind of one dimensional 'number 9' seemingly as an excuse to leave him out if the team is odd.

Where do you think Rooney should play?

Versatile he is, he can do a very good job as a number 9, 10, 11, 7, 8.

I think RVP is a better number 9.

I think Mata is a better number 10.

I think Januzaj is a better number 11 or will develop into.

Number 7 is an option although he would still compete with Nani or Zaha to be given a chance.

I think Herrera is a better number 8.

He is the most well rounded player we have and at that he is world class, he embodies total football.

How about Carrick plays CDM, dropping back to help CBs out and the two wider centre backs split, Shaw might be able to play LCB and then covers left flank, Jones could cover right flank.

Mata CAM, RVP ST etc.

Herrera RCM and Rooney LCM.

Now he is basically in a four man midfield with Carrick, Herrera and if he drops back, Mata helping him out. The LW and RW would track the full back.

 

[Kag]

The thing with the 352 shouts is that Welbeck would probably add greater balance to that formation than Rooney would as part of the two. He would stretch the defence and run in behind a lot more than Rooney or Van Persie would, and if the goals came, he'd be difficult to move provided he was tactically effective. The term 'jack of all trades, master of none' mentioned above is fairly apt for the current Rooney. He's certainly tactically adaptable, but he's less than dynamic that he used to be, and his presence makes for a headache.

If we play 433, I do think he can play well as the left sided forward, though. We'd just need to play the vast majority of our football through the centre and hope Rooney makes the correct runs inside the full backs. It's do-able. David Villa managed that transition effectively.

 

[Plugsy]

I'm not saying everyone who leaves Rooney out is anti-him, I fully expect him to be left out during games for tactical reasons and similar with most if not everyone else apart from the keeper (although last night shows that's not completely off the table either, I guess) but I do think an awful lot of people begin with the starting point of 'How can I exclude Rooney?' and work their logic backwards from there.

 

[Ash_G]

I think they can be accommodated together in one team. Mata-Rooney-Januzaj behind RvP moving around dynamically and creating spaces for each other is the ideal scenario I hope to see. Also, yesterday's game shows RvP can be shackled by a disciplined defense and if he is not having a good day, Rooney can be moved up and someone from bench can join in.

But the problem with that trio imo is that no combination of it suits that individuals involved bar potentially Januzaj.

If Rooney is central and Mata wide then you've got the issue that Rooney wants Mata to stay wide so that he can knock the ball to his flank and get in the box. Mata wants to drift infield. If Mata does drift infield though then Rooney's strength isn't in linking up in that way, he's a much better long passer than he is a short range passer. We'd be much better in that situation to just have a winger who wants to be wide and specializes in taking his man on and putting in a cross.

If Rooney is wide, aside from his general discomfort there, you end up with a similar situation with Rooney wanting to come infield but he does it to get the ball to feet, he doesn't run from the left in to the box looking for a through pass. Again for me if you have Mata central then you want players who are going to make runs in behind from wide or come for a short link up.

I just can't see how even if it was an interchangeable formation it would work, at one time I thought it could but the more I've seen the less I believe it could. I think there's just two different approaches to the game. Rooney plays it very much as a striker and Mata play it more as a link player. Neither is better than the other it's really a case of who the other team members are for me and also what is going to give you the best overall combo in terms of the net return from the team.

 

[Smores]

Doesn't matter really, they'll both play as they're marketable assets on huge wages.
Still its a good problem to have and its not like having them both on the pitch will get us relegated.

 

[Plugsy]

I'd go

De Gea
Rafael - NEW CD - Evans - Shaw
Herrera
NEW CM
Januzaj - Mata - Rooney
RVP
​

Shaw will inevitably bomb forward covering Rooney were he, as he would, cut inside. The front four could rotate a fair bit.

 

[Oneunited26]

If you got RVP and mata, I do not know how Rooney fits in

 

[Empire]

I'd go

De Gea
Rafael - NEW CD - Evans - Shaw
Herrera
NEW CM
Januzaj - Mata - Rooney
RVP
​

Shaw will inevitably bomb forward covering Rooney were he, as he would, cut inside. The front four could rotate a fair bit.

That's fine, especially considering Rooney will be played as a LW and Louis van Gaal gives his wingers a lot of attacking responsibility with less defensive so it does suit Rooney. Louis van Gaal refers to the three front men as his 'three strikers'.

As long as he does the job better than Welbeck or Nani (if kept and given a chance) he will be first choice.

 

[Theon]

It is less attacking than Louis van Gaal's preferred 4-2-1-3 and he used 5-3-2 / 3-5-2 because it strengthens the team defensively.

Against Spain they won by 4 goals because of the high line and ability to exploit that with two strikers against two centre backs.

Against Australia they managed to win by 1 goal, Chile 1 goal, Mexico 1 goal, Costa Rica they couldn't even score against. When they have moved to 4-2-1-3 in this tournament because 5-3-2 wasn't breaking the opposition down they have looked more dangerous attacking but more vulnerable defensively.

Although 5-3-2 is less dangerous attacking wise, it is stronger defensively therefore if United have enough quality they could still get enough wins in the premier league, a 1-0 or 3-0 victory yields the same points.

Louis van Gaal will make a decision and probably get it right, with the quality United have it might be good enough especially considering the teams I mentioned above are around the level of the Netherlands yet most teams who will park the bus against United will be of a much inferior quality but I'm quite sure his vision would be to eventually move to 4-2-1-3 especially since he has full control of transfers.

Why are you only talking about the Netherlands side? I think this is where you're going wrong, that is just one team that has used this formation and you don't have to play like that, no more than everyone who plays a 4-3-3 needs to play like Barcelona.

The fact is that a 3-5-2 formation 1. doesn't need to be defensive and 2. doesn't need to rely on counter attacks - the Netherlands are just one team who have used this system and don't represent a blueprint for it. Chile played the same system but in a completely different way, when Brazil won the WC in 2002 you wouldn't call them a defensive side.

 

[lalloyd]

The last thing I want to see is Rooney playing #10 when we have Mata. So, unless he's playing two CFs, no. I don't know the words needed to express how frustrated I was watching Mata being shunted to the wing last season. Well I do but they would get me banned.

 

[mufcwarm92]

For me it's a no brainer. If everyone is fit, our best three players all play.

RVP up top, Rooney behind and Mata wide. Yes, Mata is better as an orthodox 10, but he's still very effective from a wide position, much more so than most give him credit for, and has played that role for long spells in his career. He's also said several times he's comfortable playing there. If one of Rooney or RVP isn't fit, which is a fairly regular occurrence, Mata can move in centrally. I really can't see LVG doing anything other than that. A proper pact wide man on the other side and the pace thing shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Eriksen]

Wayne will be keeping the bench warm for £300k a week this season. Insane, but true.

Can I have the lottery numbers please?

 

[Godfather]

They don't seem to work together. Their doesnt seem to be that much understanding between them on the football pitch. I'd go with no.

 

[hp88]

Doesn't matter really, they'll both play as they're marketable assets on huge wages.
Still its a good problem to have and its not like having them both on the pitch will get us relegated.

I doubt LVG will start players for "marketing" reason, if they're effecting our football they will be left out and I am singling out Rooney, this goes for every United player.

 

[RuudTom83]

When you see Barca adding Suarez to their squad which includes Neymar/Messi and Real trying to add Rodriguez to play with Bale/Ronaldo...you have wonder why Manchester United can't function with more than 2 semi world class players?

Yes! Moyes couldn't do it, but SAF had no problems winning trophies with both players in the team.

Short answer: Yes

 

[Steven Seagull]

Mata is a brilliant footballer but he is absolutely awful off the ball. This worries me a little bit.

 

[Ash_G]

When you see Barca adding Suarez to their squad which includes Neymar/Messi and Real trying to add Rodriguez to play with Bale/Ronaldo...you have wonder why Manchester United can't function with more than 2 semi world class players?

Yes! Moyes couldn't do it, but SAF had no problems winning trophies with both players in the team.

Short answer: Yes

Well the difference is they're getting players who fit their system. Neymar/Messi/Suarez are all players with pace, who are comfortable running in to the channels etc. Same with the Real players. RVP/Rooney are far more traditional strikers than any of them and so they have more set ways in how they want to play as a result you need to structure the rest of the team around that.

On the point about Fergie I'd say it was much more about RVPs individual brilliance and Fergie getting more out of the squad as a whole than him getting RVP/Rooney to shine together. In fact tbh it's hard to know what Fergie was going to do long term given Rooney wasn't signed on and he had purchased Kagawa who he could well have intended to play off RVP long term.

 

[Ash_G]

Mata is a brilliant footballer but he is absolutely awful off the ball. This worries me a little bit.

Do you mean defensively? If so personally I've been surprised at how well Mata tracks back. He's not exceptional at it by any means but he does more than I thought he would and his ability lets us play out of tight defensive situations well. There were a number of games where he picked up the ball right on the edge of our box and either managed to turn free or draw the foul which is pretty valuable. That said I can see Mata going absent at times when he's not in the game but then that's the nature of these sorts of players really.