Imagine suffering injustice and your land taking away from you by an imperialistic power, but still side with Israel the occupier. Ukrainians sending their troops to invade Iraq side by side with the US and British is a stain of shame too.
Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully
- Thread starter Raoul
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Couldn’t agree more.
I probably should have worded my statement better, Ukrainians have been living in their own country for 34 years now, Palestanians not. Some of the policies Russia used is similar to the Israeli practices, but the level of injustice in modern times in front of our own eyes live on TV is not comparable.
I find it very unpleasant that the public and the official view in Ukrain side with Israel when they themselves swallowed the same medicine by Russia.
I get what you mean but it doesn't help that Israel's enemy Iran has supplied Russia with weapons that are being used against Ukraine.
Also, some nuance added (from Wiki):
IMO, failure of US leadership is a very big factor in all of this clusterfeck. Their support of Israel's aggressive behaviour has been a disgrace.
Ukraine’s entire future as an independent state may hinge on convincing reluctant Republicans in America to continue arming them. It makes a lot of sense for them to loudly identify with the state that those same Republicans absolutely love arming.
There is no such thing as permanent enemy in geopolitics or something. Many of today's alliances and adversaries were aligned on opposite ends of the spectrum at some point?
Understandable, but it leaves a sour taste in the mouth.
Iran under the Shah had if I recall correctly decent relations with Israel to the point where the Iranian SAVAK were also trained by Israelis.
It is why viewing these conflicts through moral lenses can seem somewhat amusing, though not to diminish the real suffering and loss involved. If you are a victim of one of those, it is understandable to be frustrated by all these double standards for you and your people. But it is pointless in claiming some moral victory over all of these in general because you or your stance might be unfair to someone else at some point. I am guilty of it myself. But it may be why some people just stick to one side and die on that hill because they are not going to be right or fair to everyone all the time?
It'll do them no good though. The GOP in its current iteration has been fully plagued by Trumpmania, which itself is fully compliant and borderline submissive to Putin. They aren't going to come at loggerheads with Russia. I appreciate Ukraine's desperate position, but aligning themselves with another expansionist occupying state with the hope it'll improve their standing and fortunes with the potential future US government is futile at best.
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An interesting poll about how Palestinians view some of the influential leaders in the region.
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/967
Like everyone else
Interesting that they hold so much disdain for MBS. I take it that's because of the Saudis seemingly being quite keen to pursue normalised relations with Israel.
This is the most crucial factor and I personally think that it completely shattered the US' and the West's reputation, which wasn't great to begin with, in the rest of the world. That and what was left of international laws.
Months ago, people were already warning about the danger of the conflict spilling over the region, and that this unconditional support to the most extreme far-right government on the planet was a recipe for disaster. Yet here we are.
This will be a stain on Biden's international legacy forever and he will mostly be remembered for it.
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From reading the majority of the posts here since Iran retaliated (those that are not just petty squabbles or disagreeing over what is or isn't genocide or disagreements over Iran's intentions with their response) I think most are actually on the same page.
For me, the biggest issue is the hypocrisy from the so called superpowers in the West. Biden himself said Israel's attack on the consulate in Damascus was a surprise. Nobody was warned or briefed, Israel just did it. Prior to that Biden and almost the rest of the worlds leaders and press had shifted round to condemning Israel and asking them to reign it in and seeking avenues for a ceasefire or a total halt to operations in Gaza.
Israel, for the first time was actually being called out by those who previously defended them or stayed silent. They attack the consulate and instead of being defended the opposite happens.
All this time Iran stay relatively silent and calm. They expressed their grievances and follow the correct avenues for doing so. They also clearly state the attack will not go unanswered and repeat that many times. Then when they do respond they notified everyone they needed to and gave fair warning. The attack comes with minimal damage and injury but they are now in the wrong and everyone is against them and blaming them. All the focus has shifted from the atrocities in Gaza and The West Bank and they again are public enemy number one around the world and it's dominating all media.
Meanwhile so much more has come out regarding Israel's crimes in Gaza, they have continued to attack including killing schoolkids in a playground and yet still Iran is the devil and now they are threatened by an Israeli reply and the possibility of other countries joining in.
Yet again the innocent people are the ones left suffering, scared or the ones with the most to lose and worry about.
The hypocrisy is sick. I have no love for Iran, absolutely the opposite but at the moment I see Israel and their allies as being far more dangerous than Iran.
A large part of the political hierarchy in the US has had a hard on for Iran for decades and will use any excuse to go after them. Israel knows this and I think have played them and others in the international community like a fecking fiddle. Now even in here the same game is being played. Showing any kind of understanding or empathy for Iran is jumped on and those doing so are being slammed as Iranian supporters or apologists the same as any supporting Palestinians was jumped on initially after 10/7
I'm not playing these games anymore and won't get in to semantics or gotcha arguments. It's just all so sad to watch, but it's a perfect replication of what is going on around the world.
The big benefit we have is we can post from relative safety while those in the middle of all this are either dying from being shot or bombed, starving or living in absolute fear because their leaders are all a bunch of massive cnuts who can't sit down and sort this all out like adults. However, if this continues to escalate then we could all be a lot closer to understanding than we would like.
For me, the biggest issue is the hypocrisy from the so called superpowers in the West. Biden himself said Israel's attack on the consulate in Damascus was a surprise. Nobody was warned or briefed, Israel just did it. Prior to that Biden and almost the rest of the worlds leaders and press had shifted round to condemning Israel and asking them to reign it in and seeking avenues for a ceasefire or a total halt to operations in Gaza.
Israel, for the first time was actually being called out by those who previously defended them or stayed silent. They attack the consulate and instead of being defended the opposite happens.
All this time Iran stay relatively silent and calm. They expressed their grievances and follow the correct avenues for doing so. They also clearly state the attack will not go unanswered and repeat that many times. Then when they do respond they notified everyone they needed to and gave fair warning. The attack comes with minimal damage and injury but they are now in the wrong and everyone is against them and blaming them. All the focus has shifted from the atrocities in Gaza and The West Bank and they again are public enemy number one around the world and it's dominating all media.
Meanwhile so much more has come out regarding Israel's crimes in Gaza, they have continued to attack including killing schoolkids in a playground and yet still Iran is the devil and now they are threatened by an Israeli reply and the possibility of other countries joining in.
Yet again the innocent people are the ones left suffering, scared or the ones with the most to lose and worry about.
The hypocrisy is sick. I have no love for Iran, absolutely the opposite but at the moment I see Israel and their allies as being far more dangerous than Iran.
A large part of the political hierarchy in the US has had a hard on for Iran for decades and will use any excuse to go after them. Israel knows this and I think have played them and others in the international community like a fecking fiddle. Now even in here the same game is being played. Showing any kind of understanding or empathy for Iran is jumped on and those doing so are being slammed as Iranian supporters or apologists the same as any supporting Palestinians was jumped on initially after 10/7
I'm not playing these games anymore and won't get in to semantics or gotcha arguments. It's just all so sad to watch, but it's a perfect replication of what is going on around the world.
The big benefit we have is we can post from relative safety while those in the middle of all this are either dying from being shot or bombed, starving or living in absolute fear because their leaders are all a bunch of massive cnuts who can't sit down and sort this all out like adults. However, if this continues to escalate then we could all be a lot closer to understanding than we would like.
It's absolutely unsurprising.
Out of all the Arab countries, Saudi Arabia is the one with the biggest international pull and which really could've done something for them.
MBS agreeing to the Abraham Accords which effectively sold the Palestinians down the drain, was the latest stab in the back and the hammer blow.
Tbh you could say the same regarding Erdogan.
The man talks a big talk when it comes to the issue of Palestinian solidarity, but the reality is Turkey remains one of Israel's biggest trade partners in the region, and both countries under his watch have enjoyed extensive military, diplomatic and cultural ties. Erdogan loves a good speech with Israel in his verbal crosshairs to appease to his demographic, but as always it often comes to nothing. He only ever intervenes when it comes to the Kurds (like how he essentially helped ISIS in Syria during the Rojava campaign against the YPG). So you have to wonder why he enjoys overwhelming popularity amongst Palestinians, unless the lip service was enough.
The Assad hate is also curious. Objectively Assad is certainly an odious tyrant, but I can't see why he'd be hated more than the leaders of Saudi, Emirates and Jordan, whom unlike Assad, have been actively helping Israel in recent episodes.
Perhaps because Assad is actually responsible for the deaths of far more Arabs and Muslims - including many Palestinians - than the others.
You're right, I was just going with the 'population is at fault so they had it coming' sick logic.
Exactly this. But hey, it's all good business... The War Machine needs actual wars to make money.
Always amuses me how the gimp Erdogan is placed in such high regard. Not just in this case but in the Muslim world in general. Just another snake oil merchant.
Revan Raven is highlander, there can be only one
It's the biggest factor in my opinion
Turkey has always had a very good relationship with Israel, and only since Erdogan they have been criticizing Israel and at this point the relations have massively deteriorated. Erdogan himself is probably the only ‘Western’ leader who criticizes Israel all the time, and calls Netanyahu with all sort of names. In addition, they probably remember that maritime episode when that Turkey ship with humanitarian aid tried to pass Israel’s blockade of Gaza.
So yes, while Turkey is still an ally of Israel in some sense, their relations under Erdogan are at an all-time low, which is why I expect Palestinians like him. And countries like Saudi Arabia despite still not recognizing Israel, are improving the relations with them.
More interesting is why they like Xi Jinping? Has he ever talked about the Palestinian issue and is China doing any investment there?
A fair point, but again so was Saddam, and yet the Palestinians worshipped the ground he walked on.
Thanks for this write up - I do have some follow up questions but hard to articulate on the phone when I'm on the go. Will edit this post later and ask.
I take the point about Erodgan being the only NATO leader to speak openly and harshly about Israel, but this dance has happened time and time again - the two countries have a 'falling out' after some moment of adversity, only for them to reconcile and recognise their important ties. Its also no coincidence that Erdogan fires up his anti-Israeli rhetoric whenever he's he's navigating a period of domestic turmoil or battling elections.
As for Xi, my guess there would be the treatment of Uyghur Muslims, who the Palestinians probably resonate with in some form. That and they might have lumped him in the same boat as Putin - i.e. partners of Assad, a leader they seem to overwhelmingly dislike.
I'm yet to meet an Arab or a Muslim that has a positive thing to say about MBS, and that's not just from talking to UK folk. I don't think Palestinians would be any different.
He has 61% Good and just 18% Bad, so actually his approval rate to Palestinians is the highest of them all (even more than Erdogan). So, that is very weird indeed, especially when you consider his treatment of Uyghur's.
But I guess it is more a matter of alliances or perceived alliances. Just look at Kosovo-Palestine relations (or lack of), with Palestine firmly opposing Kosovo's independence and Kosovo having their Israel embassy in Jerusalem. Despite having a similar story, in the end it mostly comes to alliances, rather than resonating with other people suffering and sharing a similar history of oppression. So I think it is as simple as China being nowadays the US' main 'enemy', thus China are good.
Thought it was 18/27% bad, unless I've read the graph wrong. As for it being down to alliances, its feasible but the complex and seemingly arbitrary nature of some of these perceived alliances (which are often in a constant state of flux) makes it an unreliable indicator.
I think ultimately polls like these (or indeed any poll for that matter) only really capture the fickle sentiments at that given time. It would have been interesting to see for example how they perceived the likes of Erdogan and Biden prior to October 7th.
You're actually correct, I cannot read graphs.
Yeah fair enough. Though by the same token I don't see why Erdogan seems to be so admired when he's just as much of a lackey, empty speeches withstanding. Could be my inner Kurd biases creeping through, but I always found it equal parts confusing and infuriating that a tyrannous and insincere hack like Erdogan somehow gets put on a pedestal. I suppose being the de facto leader of the country that acts as the custodians of Islam's most revered sites and behaving the way he does doesn't do MBS any favours.
It was done before the war. There are actually two other polls dealing directly with countries from before and after October 7th. Only Iran improved their favorability after the war and Turkey dropped quite a bit.
I've read the polls from the source and AB7 was a previous poll conducted in 2021 by the way, close to the Abraham Accords.
I don't want to derail the thread too much - but most Arabs outside of the Gulf states have formed a dim view of the Gulf Arab leaders. If it wasn't for the Haramain, what would the rest of the Muslim world really need Saudi for? Add that to their decadent behaviour and the un-Islamification of the 'holy land', ie music concerts, nightclubs, alcohol, even Shk Sudais has made some really odd duas and khutbahs recently basically signalling that the religious clergy are in the pocket of MBS, or nationalism is more important to them than religion...which is in stark contrast to Erdogan in Turkey who's created (or attempting to create) a more Islamic Turkey. They've increased the number of madrasas across the country. To the wider world it probably matters very little in the grand scheme of things, but to the Muslim population, it speaks to something deeper.
Ahh interesting.It was done before the war. There are actually two other polls dealing directly with countries from before and after October 7th. Only Iran improved their favorability after the war and Turkey dropped quite a bit.
I've read the polls from the source and AB7 was a previous poll conducted in 2021 by the way, close to the Abraham Accords.
The US and UK figures are predictably amusing.
I don't agree. If Ukraine defeats Russia, he will mostly be remembered for that.
I think it is wishful thinking to assume that Iran's "theatre" has simply reset everything to the status quo, I think the Israel embassy attack and Iran's escalation has been potentially destabilising.
- Iran has demonstrated the means and the willingness to attack directly, whereas previously they responded indirectly. That is new.
- Iran has demonstrated a willingness to escalate, whereas previously they tended to retaliate. That is new.
- Israel's Arab allies showed they were prepared to help, or enable Israel to be helped militarily against Iran. That is new.
- Although Iran has signalled it does not wish to escalate further, given the size, directness and nature of the attack, Israel may feel it has no option but to respond in a way that shows strength and has deterrent value. That is dangerous.
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Wait til you find out who the West allied with to defeat Germany in WW2!
I mean Iran demonstrated they were willing to attack directly, if they themselves were directly under attack, which they were considering Israel's bombing of the consulate, which is considered Iranian territory under international law. So I don't see why we're placing the burden of escalation on them. They've also considered the matter resolved, so by choosing to retaliate to a retaliation, Israel are in fact prolonging and further risk destabilising the region.
I meant more generally speaking. On this topic, we do appear to have similar views, I could never back a country that is committing genocide or apartheid. I can't quite wrap my head around the idea that others can.