Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully

glazed

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I take the view that World War III began in 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea. The main protagonists are US, EU, UK and Israel on one side; on the other are Russia, China and Iran. Every major international crisis the UK has faced since 2014 has emanated from one of those three countries. The election of Trump, Brexit, Gaza, Ukraine, even Covid (accidently) can be traced back to these actors, and they are supporting each other heavily both militarily and economically. What Israel did in Damascus is pretty unremarkable in that context. Western pearl clutching with its 'Gays for Gaza' narcissism only reflects how insulated from reality we have become.

This war is sometimes hot, sometimes cold, usually fought through proxies but not always. Much of it is a propaganda war aimed at weakening the west or undermining its institutions and alliances through division and social conflict.

It will eventually culminate in the invasion of Taiwan and the supplanting of western global power entirely.
 

facchiano

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I've seen a brilliant documentary on YouTube from an independent French media which meticulously dissects how the French mainstream media covered the current Israel-Palestine massacre, as well as in the previous decades. It's bone chilling. I can provide the link for French speakers. It's sadly not translated nor has English subtitles.
Could you send me the link to this documentary?
 

Kaos

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I take the view that World War III began in 2014 when Russia invaded Crimea. The main protagonists are US, EU, UK and Israel on one side; on the other are Russia, China and Iran. Every major international crisis the UK has faced since 2014 has emanated from one of those three countries. The election of Trump, Brexit, Gaza, Ukraine, even Covid (accidently) can be traced back to these actors, and they are supporting each other heavily both militarily and economically. What Israel did in Damascus is pretty unremarkable in that context. Western pearl clutching with its 'Gays for Gaza' narcissism only reflects how insulated from reality we have become.

This war is sometimes hot, sometimes cold, usually fought through proxies but not always. Much of it is a propaganda war aimed at weakening the west or undermining its institutions and alliances through division and social conflict.

It will eventually culminate in the invasion of Taiwan and the supplanting of western global power entirely.
How can Gaza be traced back to one of those 'axis' powers? Its a situation that Israel (an 'allied' power's proxy in this case) created by illegally occupying Palestinian territory, blockading it and making life as miserable as possible for the Palestinians to the point of radicalising some of them into terrorism. And this was a situation that was artificially created by the UK when choosing to simply superimpose a new nation on land already occupied by swathes of natives. Unless you're starting the clock from October 7th, holding the likes of Iran responsible for the situation in Gaza is deeply ingenuous since the problem precedes the likes of Hamas or even the Islamic Republic of Iran. The same Islamic Republic which btw came to power thanks to the US and UK meddling in a largely democratic Iran in the 50s for their own heinous hegemonic aspirations.

Your perspective is deeply insular and only focuses on it from the perspective of the UK. But looking slightly further than 2014 and beyond and you'll see the destabilising effect nations such as the US and UK have had in regions like South America and the Middle East. Its not just some 'Gays for Gaza' narcism to draw objections to them.
 

AfonsoAlves

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I hear this reasoning about rational actors used to defend the status quo constantly, but the argument lacks integrity when you put into perspective a few hard truths.

1) Only one nation to date has used a nuke or something resembling it on a civilian population, hint - its not one of the pantomime baddies we're all terrified of but rather one of the so called 'rational actors'. And as far as the Middle east is concerned, that same nation's regional ally and proxy is the only power in the region to also possess a nuke.

2) Your point about it falling into the hands of genocidal, morally-bankrupt, ethno-fascist fanatics that believe they're doing god's work being a recipe for catastrophic disaster. You're spot on. It also so happens the aforementioned proxy power in the previous point fits that description.

The nuclear weapon is definitely one of humanity's most tragic and disgraceful conceptions, but its only saving grace is the powerful deterring factor it holds amongst adversaries. If it acts as a buffer that prevents major powers from engaging in devastating, direct conflicts that decimated Europe in the 20th century, then surely we take that as an acceptable, albeit reluctant compromise. The ideal scenario is no one possesses nuclear weapons, but considering that's an impossibility, the next best thing is anyone who possesses nuclear weapons is deeply hesitant to use them for fear of equally devastating reprisals. That stalemate only works when there's a nuclear power balance which currently doesn't exist in volatile regions like the middle east.
That's a gross misrepresentation of USA's approach to using nuclear weapons on Japan and their consequent policy afterwards.

The Battle of Okinawa was the first real invasion of the Japanese home islands, in which case the allied suffered 15,000 combat dead and Japan, in total, suffered 150,000 - 200,000 dead both civilian and combat alike. For a tiny island about 35% smaller than the Isle of Skye.

Despite being defeated in everything but officially, Japan refused to surrender, even conditionally, and vowed to fight to the death. As it became obvious a land invasion of the home islands was approaching, The Japanese Military Government began to hand out rifles, molotov's, to every able person, female and male. Even in Okinawa, all males aged 14-17 were drafted and even kids as young as 9 years old were handed grenades in an unofficial capacity.

US War Planners in the Pacific began to show severe doubt regarding the inhumane human cost that a land invasion of Japan would bring. A Plan was devised called Operation Olympic which, upon first draft was sent to the Executive Branch for sign off, only for it to be rejected. Why? Expected casualties were 2.1 million US soldiers KIA and 9+ million Japanese KIA. For months, the plan was revised down, shrunk in scale and Olympic got into its final draft that war planners and the executive branch agreed upon. Expected casualties: 1.0 million US KIA and 5.5 million Japanese KIA. To do this the US changed the plan to just the southern third of Japan to be invaded and use that as leverage for a peace settlement with Japan.

Then obviously the Nukes came along and the rest is history. Without the Nukes Operational Downfall and Operation Olympic would have been brutal beyond anything we would have seen in the war. It would have made the Eastern Front seem tame, simply due to the absurd population density Japan had at the time (and still do). Nagasaki and Hiroshima were horrible things to happen and it resulted in 150,000 civilian deaths, but the only plausible alternative would have resulted in death and destruction orders of magnitude higher.

After that, the administration changed their view towards nukes (despite popular media rhetoric towards Truman's views). Nobody wanted to use it. When Douglas McArthur proposed using nukes to beat China and North Korea in the Korean War, Truman consequently fired McArthur, his entire Joint chiefs of Staff and his backroom staff.
 

glazed

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How can Gaza be traced back to one of those 'axis' powers? Its a situation that Israel (an 'allied' power's proxy in this case) created by illegally occupying Palestinian territory, blockading it and making life as miserable as possible for the Palestinians to the point of radicalising some of them into terrorism. And this was a situation that was artificially created by the UK when choosing to simply superimpose a new nation on land already occupied by swathes of natives. Unless you're starting the clock from October 7th, holding the likes of Iran responsible for the situation in Gaza is deeply ingenuous since the problem precedes the likes of Hamas or even the Islamic Republic of Iran. The same Islamic Republic which btw came to power thanks to the US and UK meddling in a largely democratic Iran in the 50s for their own heinous hegemonic aspirations.

Your perspective is deeply insular and only focuses on it from the perspective of the UK. But looking slightly further than 2014 and beyond and you'll see the destabilising effect nations such as the US and UK have had in regions like South America and the Middle East. Its not just some 'Gays for Gaza' narcism to draw objections to them.
Hamas, like Hezbollah and the Houthis of Yemen, are an Iranian proxy organisation. Their whole strategy with October 7 was to try and ignite a middle east wide conflict. Unfortunately for them the Iranians and Lebanese didn't turn up and left them in the shit, just like Arab leaders have been doing to the local Arabs (later Palestinians) ever since 1948 when they started a war on their behalf and lost. Had they not done so back then, who knows what might have developed instead of a 76 year conflict where the Palestinians have come off worse every time.

But that's the past. The era of Western hegemony is fading fast and I suspect Israel will fade with it. And so will the UK. If you look up from your keyboard you can see it happening all around you. By the time we arrive at the WWIII party it will have been lost already.
 

That_Bloke

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Hamas, like Hezbollah and the Houthis of Yemen, are an Iranian proxy organisation. Their whole strategy with October 7 was to try and ignite a middle east wide conflict. Unfortunately for them the Iranians and Lebanese didn't turn up and left them in the shit, just like Arab leaders have been doing to the local Arabs (later Palestinians) ever since 1948 when they started a war on their behalf and lost. Had they not done so back then, who knows what might have developed instead of a 76 year conflict where the Palestinians have come off worse every time.

But that's the past. The era of Western hegemony is fading fast and I suspect Israel will fade with it. And so will the UK. If you look up from your keyboard you can see it happening all around you. By the time we arrive at the WWIII party it will have been lost already.
Wow.
 

Raoul

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Hamas, like Hezbollah and the Houthis of Yemen, are an Iranian proxy organisation. Their whole strategy with October 7 was to try and ignite a middle east wide conflict. Unfortunately for them the Iranians and Lebanese didn't turn up and left them in the shit, just like Arab leaders have been doing to the local Arabs (later Palestinians) ever since 1948 when they started a war on their behalf and lost. Had they not done so back then, who knows what might have developed instead of a 76 year conflict where the Palestinians have come off worse every time.
Sinwar made two faulty assumptions with the attack imo. He presumed Hezbollah would fully join in from the north, which he hoped would have triggered a four front war with Israel if you include Iran through Syria and the Houthis. And he underestimated the Israeli response since there's no way he would've launched the attack had he known it would've resulted in a 6 month plus Israeli campaign to get rid of Hamas. He probably thought he could murder as many Israelis as possible and kidnap many more to use as collateral for political concessions involving prisoner swaps and policy changes.
 

glazed

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Sinwar made two faulty assumptions with the attack imo. He presumed Hezbollah would fully join in from the north, which he hoped would have triggered a four front war with Israel if you include Iran through Syria and the Houthis. And he underestimated the Israeli response since there's no way he would've launched the attack had he known it would've resulted in a 6 month plus Israeli campaign to get rid of Hamas. He probably thought he could murder as many Israelis as possible and kidnap many more to use as collateral for political concessions involving prisoner swaps and policy changes.
The first is certainly true. As to the second, to my mind he would certainly have known the Israelis would retaliate disproportionately on a huge scale because that's what they did previously and that was their stated policy. I think he hoped to turn Gaza into a propaganda disaster for Israel and a cause célèbre for anti-Western sentiment. If so he succeeded admirably and if it paves the way for his ultimate political goal he won't mind the casualties. He is at the end of the day the leader of an Islamist extremist terror group, not the Yeovil Liberal Democrats.

Where he may have miscalculated is if Israel actually does ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians as they would clearly love to do. But that's looking out of reach right now.
 
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AfonsoAlves

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I don’t understand the predictions of western hegemony disappearing. The biggest proponent to hegemony is economic power and frankly the only nation capable of actually surpassing the west economically (China) in the next 50 years has been on an 8 year path of perpetual self sabotage.
 

VorZakone

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I don’t understand the predictions of western hegemony disappearing. The biggest proponent to hegemony is economic power and frankly the only nation capable of actually surpassing the west economically (China) in the next 50 years has been on an 8 year path of perpetual self sabotage.
"Disappearing" is a big word as the combined economic, political and military might of the EU + US + Canada + Aus/NZ is still formidable. And there are partner countries which aren't necessarily counted as "Western" but they're pretty much under the US military umbrella as well (Japan + South Korea). But I don't think it's all rosy either, specifically for the EU. I think the US will be fine long-term but the EU doesn't really inspire me and they can't seem to innovate like the US can.

It's often mentioned that BRICS could overtake the West. BRICS countries aren't even formally allied. Brazil is not going to join Russia in a hypothetical war with the West. India & China have their own border issues. And so forth.
 

AfonsoAlves

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"Disappearing" is a big word as the combined economic, political and military might of the EU + US + Canada + Aus/NZ is still formidable. And there are partner countries which aren't necessarily counted as "Western" but they're pretty much under the US military umbrella as well (Japan + South Korea). But I don't think it's all rosy either, specifically for the EU. I think the US will be fine long-term but the EU doesn't really inspire me and they can't seem to innovate like the US can.

It's often mentioned that BRICS could overtake the West. BRICS countries aren't even formally allied. Brazil is not going to join Russia in a hypothetical war with the West. India & China have their own border issues. And so forth.
BRICS is about as useful as a political force as the “Afonso Alves for retroactive 2008 Balon Dor Club”

It’s a forum which basically states that we in this group will talk to each other X times a year.

It can be summed up when the original 5 BRICS countries tried to create a new alternative to dollarized loans in order to supplant the dollar. Then they found out any bond offering they made in international markets was practically worthless as this bond currency doesn’t actually exist. So they bought shit tonnes of US dollar denominated debt bonds as security to underwrite their new currency venture.
Fast forward a few years and the Fed hikes their interest rates, their debt dollars denominations become worthless and the bank they setup to do this goes bankrupt.

Absolute meme of an organisation

https://markets.businessinsider.com...ebt-ukraine-war-russia-dedollarization-2023-6
 

glazed

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I don’t understand the predictions of western hegemony disappearing. The biggest proponent to hegemony is economic power and frankly the only nation capable of actually surpassing the west economically (China) in the next 50 years has been on an 8 year path of perpetual self sabotage.
There's a difference between end of hegemony and the nations themselves disappearing as players. Once China takes Taiwan they will have a technological dominance to match their raw materials dominance. Once Russia takes and holds the Donbas they will have control of its trade gateway in grains and its rare earths. And it goes without saying what happens if Iran controls the Middle East (less likely.)

The joker in this pack is climate change though. Big parts of the global south are likely going to become uninhabitable, including huge chunks of Iran (already happening) and China and India/Pakistan. Amid that kind of population disruption, the forced movement of the Palestinians will be more or less a footnote once the water wars kick in properly. It's an open question whether that region will even be inhabitable to the Israelis.
 
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Sinwar made two faulty assumptions with the attack imo. He presumed Hezbollah would fully join in from the north, which he hoped would have triggered a four front war with Israel if you include Iran through Syria and the Houthis. And he underestimated the Israeli response since there's no way he would've launched the attack had he known it would've resulted in a 6 month plus Israeli campaign to get rid of Hamas. He probably thought he could murder as many Israelis as possible and kidnap many more to use as collateral for political concessions involving prisoner swaps and policy changes.
All that could well be true.

He may also have hoped to provoke an Israeli response that would have created a sea-change of anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian sympathy around the world, and in that he would have been correct. And I know you don't agree, but in the US too times are a-changing. He might also have thought that the Israeli response would in the medium-term result in more fighting volunteers from many countries, and more financial support to equip them, and that could very well be what happens. Hamas or any similar organisation won't win any conventional war in the foreseeable future, but that is not the only way to fight.

The US, and the UK for what that's worth, needs to withdraw it's unconditional support for Israel and force it to plan for a two viable-state solution, in which both Israelis and Palestinians have a real homeland. They need to threaten Israel with arms bans and economic sanctions unless they do plan for a solution fair to both peoples.
 

4bars

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All that could well be true.

He may also have hoped to provoke an Israeli response that would have created a sea-change of anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian sympathy around the world, and in that he would have been correct. And I know you don't agree, but in the US too times are a-changing. He might also have thought that the Israeli response would in the medium-term result in more fighting volunteers from many countries, and more financial support to equip them, and that could very well be what happens. Hamas or any similar organisation won't win any conventional war in the foreseeable future, but that is not the only way to fight.

The US, and the UK for what that's worth, needs to withdraw it's unconditional support for Israel and force it to plan for a two viable-state solution, in which both Israelis and Palestinians have a real homeland. They need to threaten Israel with arms bans and economic sanctions unless they do plan for a solution fair to both peoples.
Even if the West would stop supporting Israel, Israel would not back down. Maybe would back down on what is happening now, but would never agree to 2 state solution and nothing, absolutely nothing will make them compromise on that. The only thing would be force them militarily invading Israel and if losing support of the west will not happen anytime soon, invading Israel to force them a 2 state solution will never happen
 

glazed

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The US, and the UK for what that's worth, needs to withdraw it's unconditional support for Israel and force it to plan for a two viable-state solution
Neither Israel nor the Palestinians want a two state solution. After 76 years of war both sides regard one another as mortal enemies who have no human rights at all. They could not have made that more obvious. The only people thinking in terms of a peaceful 2 state compromise are western occidentalists imposing their own values on the conflict. It will never happen.
 

jadaba

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I don’t understand the predictions of western hegemony disappearing. The biggest proponent to hegemony is economic power and frankly the only nation capable of actually surpassing the west economically (China) in the next 50 years has been on an 8 year path of perpetual self sabotage.
I think what people refer to in the collapse of western hegemony isn't the emergence of a new individual nation to surpass the US, we know the US will remain the joint economic power with China. In my view it's more about the west's ability to control and influence the world. For each nation or region where the west loses its ability to meaningfully project influence, someone else will fill it in a zero-sum game sense. There are ample cases from the past decade of western retreat and loss of influence, and there's not much to suggest that this is a trend that'll reverse.

Even Gulf petro-states' unwillingness to follow western leadership in regards to Russia have helped their war endure and materially undermined a collective western effort to isolate Russia. In my view, the complete undermining of the 'rules based international order' over the past six months are a pretty significant lever that help maintain its hegemony that has been eroded, and it'll show the next time the west seeks to rally the world against an actor that harms only limited western interests.

I don't envision in my lifetime a situation where the US & west are completely relegated from being major powers, but we're already seeing growing instances of them accepting that in such-and-such region, they simply don't hold sway. At some point, I imagine we'll just accept that the west can no longer be considered hegemon in a projecting power sense on a global scale, even if it remains a major economic power.
 

the_cliff

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Some in Regime media and supporters are in meltdown as Israel once again shows what a so called paper-tiger the Islamic Republic regime in Iran is.

I can post clips but they are in Persian. but translation of a heated debate.

"They killed Suleimani, we didn't do anything. They killed Razi Mousavi, we didn't do anything. Now they've killed Zahedi by bombing our consulate with our "holy" flag on it, basically our soil....and here we are talking about how MARTYRDOM was their dream and Martyr Zahedi had always dreamt of being martyred on the anniversary of Ali (Shi'a imam) death. People aren't stupid, strategic patience until when? What is our actual red line?" :lol:......The regime knows they have maximum 10% support within the country and in case of a full-out war, there won't be any public support for it, so they just harp and bark and keep getting their asses handed to them by Israel. I was passively listening to an X space of regime fans and I really felt some of them have finally come to the same conclusion about the regime's impotence and paper-tigerish as well ... hopefully it'll mean they'll lose even some of the remaining 10% as a result.

That POS Zahedi was one of the very top guys of Tehran IRGC in 2017 and 2019, and one of the main butchers, when the Islamic regime cut down internet in Iran in November 2019 for one full week and murdered close to 2,000 people in a few days. Rest in hell !
I saw some posts saying that the IRGC will retaliate by hitting an elementary school in Idlib or something as retaliation. :lol: :lol:
 

4bars

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Neither Israel nor the Palestinians want a two state solution. After 76 years of war both sides regard one another as mortal enemies who have no human rights at all. They could not have made that more obvious. The only people thinking in terms of a peaceful 2 state compromise are western occidentalists imposing their own values on the conflict. It will never happen.
I think that if the palestinians would be given a two state solution with 1967 borders would accepted in a heartbeat. even 20 years ago. A real state. Obviously is 100% unrealistic
 

glazed

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I think that if the palestinians would be given a two state solution with 1967 borders would accepted in a heartbeat. even 20 years ago. A real state. Obviously is 100% unrealistic
Unfortunately that window has shut. The rise of islamism means Israel will never feel secure next to any Palestinian state. They see their best bet as removing the Palestinians over time.
 

Mainoonited

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Sinwar made two faulty assumptions with the attack imo. He presumed Hezbollah would fully join in from the north, which he hoped would have triggered a four front war with Israel if you include Iran through Syria and the Houthis. And he underestimated the Israeli response since there's no way he would've launched the attack had he known it would've resulted in a 6 month plus Israeli campaign to get rid of Hamas. He probably thought he could murder as many Israelis as possible and kidnap many more to use as collateral for political concessions involving prisoner swaps and policy changes.
Do the regular Israeli attacks on Gaza as well as the blockade not count as acts of war? I didn't realise it all started on October 7th.
 

glazed

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Do the regular Israeli attacks on Gaza as well as the blockade not count as acts of war? I didn't realise it all started on October 7th.
It started whenever you want it to. Philistine and Palestinian are the same word in Hebrew so it started for some people when David killed Goliath. It's a political choice, not a fact.
 

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It started whenever you want it to. Philistine and Palestinian are the same word in Hebrew so it started for some people when David killed Goliath. It's a political choice, not a fact.
It didn't start on october 7, that is a fact.
 

glazed

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It didn't start on october 7, that is a fact.
Depends what 'it' is really. Again it's a political statement, not an undisputed fact.

Most people might tend to think it started in 1948 though, which was the date of the first Arab/Israeli war. But clearly it had its antecedents in the Ottoman Empire's defeat in World War I, the promotion of Zionism as a Western bulwark against communism, and then the Holocaust in World War II.
 

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Depends what 'it' is really. Again it's a political statement, not an undisputed fact.

Most people might tend to think it started in 1948 though, which was the date of the first Arab/Israeli war. But clearly it had its antecedents in the Ottoman Empire's defeat in World War I, the promotion of Zionism as a Western bulwark against communism, and then the Holocaust in World War II.
People can debate all they want about when it (the war between israel and palestinians) started, but it definitely wasn't on october 7.
 

Raoul

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Do the regular Israeli attacks on Gaza as well as the blockade not count as acts of war? I didn't realise it all started on October 7th.
You can go back to any number of events over the past 70 years, but this latest chapter that led to the Israeli invasion did begin last October.
 

Pintu

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The first is certainly true. As to the second, to my mind he would certainly have known the Israelis would retaliate disproportionately on a huge scale because that's what they did previously and that was their stated policy. I think he hoped to turn Gaza into a propaganda disaster for Israel and a cause célèbre for anti-Western sentiment. If so he succeeded admirably and if it paves the way for his ultimate political goal he won't mind the casualties. He is at the end of the day the leader of an Islamist extremist terror group, not the Yeovil Liberal Democrats.

Where he may have miscalculated is if Israel actually does ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians as they would clearly love to do. But that's looking out of reach right now.
Not sure he hoped for it but they would see some benefits. Most of the worldwide public opinion is turning against Israel, therein lies a potential win for the Palestinian cause. Hamas won’t mind the casualties. They are not in the that business.

See this video with subtitles:

I don’t think it was their plan, but they were always expecting it’s going to take this much “sacrifice“ for the Palestinians to obtain their rights…A Hamas leader said it out loud and quite cynically back in October.

The whole 5 mns gives a good insight into their mindset, and particularly the part from 1:10 to 1:55…

 

4bars

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Unfortunately that window has shut. The rise of islamism means Israel will never feel secure next to any Palestinian state. They see their best bet as removing the Palestinians over time.
As a secondary goal is true, but it was never for security. They always had wanted all sin ben gurion
 

Don't Kill Bill

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How can Gaza be traced back to one of those 'axis' powers? Its a situation that Israel (an 'allied' power's proxy in this case) created by illegally occupying Palestinian territory, blockading it and making life as miserable as possible for the Palestinians to the point of radicalising some of them into terrorism. And this was a situation that was artificially created by the UK when choosing to simply superimpose a new nation on land already occupied by swathes of natives. Unless you're starting the clock from October 7th, holding the likes of Iran responsible for the situation in Gaza is deeply ingenuous since the problem precedes the likes of Hamas or even the Islamic Republic of Iran. The same Islamic Republic which btw came to power thanks to the US and UK meddling in a largely democratic Iran in the 50s for their own heinous hegemonic aspirations.

Your perspective is deeply insular and only focuses on it from the perspective of the UK. But looking slightly further than 2014 and beyond and you'll see the destabilising effect nations such as the US and UK have had in regions like South America and the Middle East. Its not just some 'Gays for Gaza' narcism to draw objections to them.

It wasn't really the UK governments choice though was it?

As I understood it the British, who held a colonial mandate for Palestine until May 1948, opposed both the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in Palestine as well as unlimited immigration of Jewish refugees to the region.

UK couldn't stop the creation which became USA and I think USSR policy.
 

The Corinthian

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Curious by what you mean with "the rise of islamism"?
It's a nebulous, and inaccurate term used to generalise the Muslim world, often used by Islamophobes (or to absolve Israel of any depraved action it takes on its neighbours in this context). The idea that Israel has to do what it does because they face an existential constant threat is nonsensical. If you go by recent polling most Israeli Arabs and Palestinians generally vote in favour, or at least more favourably to a 2 state solution than their Israeli Jewish and Israeli settler counterparts:




Apartheid in this context means where the group being asked has greater rights than the other, with other being 'do not know' or 'disagree with options'. But again, it shows that over 50% of Palestinians are in favour of either a two state solution or 1 democratic state with equal rights for both Israelis and Arabs. This is fairly similar with Israelis but just under a quarter prefer Apartheid.

And a more recent poll has the following:

According to the latest survey, a majority of Palestinians (51%) supported a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders, with slightly more support seen among residents of Gaza than among West Bank Palestinians. A quarter of respondents also said they supported “armed resistance” as a preferred solution to Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

The results also revealed a very low level of support among Palestinians for institutions, whether it be the Palestinian Authority or Hamas. “The Palestinians don’t feel that any of their leaders are really legitimate in this sense,” said Robbins.

About 23% of respondents said they have a great deal or quite a lot of trust in Hamas; 52% had no trust at all in Hamas.
 

AfonsoAlves

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What I think people mean by Islamism is the rise of Wahabism and it's more insidious brother, Salafism.
 

AfonsoAlves

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Depends what 'it' is really. Again it's a political statement, not an undisputed fact.

Most people might tend to think it started in 1948 though, which was the date of the first Arab/Israeli war. But clearly it had its antecedents in the Ottoman Empire's defeat in World War I, the promotion of Zionism as a Western bulwark against communism, and then the Holocaust in World War II.
The initial wave of Jews going to British mandate of Palestine was not really international-political motivations in the early 20th century. The first group of settlers up until 1936 were basically middle class/relatively wealthy Jews from Europe and USA who were suffering persecution buying Land and Homes from the natives and deciding to live in that region because of the historical connection. The locals were fine with this too up until 1936 when the number of immigrants had gotten to a point which started up racial tensions between the two groups, which culminated in the Arab Revolt. Starting from the early 30's both sides had become more and more belligerent in their approach resulting in, first the Arab Revolt which already saw gangs of Zionist Israeli's and fervent Palestinian nationalists rise up to its culmination in the Nakba.
 

The Corinthian

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What I think people mean by Islamism is the rise of Wahabism and it's more insidious brother, Salafism.
Well, you've got those two the wrong way round firstly, but we also have names for those things...namely Salafism and Wahabism.

And secondly, neither of those have anything to do with Israel and having to face 'Islamism'. Hamas can be best described as a geo-political organisation, and Iran obviously doesn't subscribe to either Wahabism or Salafism.
 
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berbatrick

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It wasn't really the UK governments choice though was it?

As I understood it the British, who held a colonial mandate for Palestine until May 1948, opposed both the creation of a Jewish state and an Arab state in Palestine as well as unlimited immigration of Jewish refugees to the region.

UK couldn't stop the creation which became USA and I think USSR policy.
The Balfour declaration was long before 1948.