Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[MJJ]

They absolutely have the right to protest, but obviously having Hamas - who are still categorized as a terrorist organization by the EU, involved is going to change the dynamics of how such protests are interpreted by the Israelis.

So if Hamas pays some poor americans to protest on their behalf against this policy in America, you would be okay with your government shooting and killing them?

 

[MJJ]

This wasn't your usual protest or demonstration though. They (israel) were facing tens of thousands of angry rioters who were also egged on by many clerics to encroach the fence. They were unarmed but I doubt they were there to take the israelis out to afternoon tea. It is unfortunate that the israelis had to open fire but with the huge crowds being whipped into a frenzy I feel like they had to defend themselves and their people. I just think it's not as one sided as the media seem to be portraying it.

"unfortunate"

Also were you present there? And how many casualties did Israel suffer from this huge crowd who has been "whipped into a frenzy"?

 

[Hammerfell]

If talking about these horrific deaths and injuries . Maybe it would not be a good idea of having a picture of you smiling .

You sound like an old man.

 

[Nedved]

This wasn't your usual protest or demonstration though. They (israel) were facing tens of thousands of angry rioters who were also egged on by many clerics to encroach the fence. They were unarmed but I doubt they were there to take the israelis out to afternoon tea. It is unfortunate that the israelis had to open fire but with the huge crowds being whipped into a frenzy I feel like they had to defend themselves and their people. I just think it's not as one sided as the media seem to be portraying it.

I guess the eight underaged men who were killed had to be gunned down at all costs, and next time it’s their brothers’ turn to be shot when they go out on the streets to protest violently, etc. Good tactic.

 

[mu4c_20le]

"unfortunate"

Also were you present there? And how many casualties did Israel suffer from this huge crowd who has been "whipped into a frenzy"?

I wasn't present but I am reading reports on what was happening, not just headlines or snippets from journalists.

 

[Nikhil]

This is a massacre aided by the west that has lasted over 60 years.

No, that is what the West are doing to the Kurds. They have been complicit in this regard. They stand by and watch as Kurds are oppressed and brutalised.

But look at the selective outrage. That's what irks me. Arabs and the world media kick up a huge fuss when Israel responds to Hamas protests. But the Kurds have been brutalised by Arabs and Turks in Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. They want a sovereign state in their homeland. They have been persecuted since ages now. The international media have no interest in the plight of the Kurds. Arabs couldn't care less about the Kurds. Scum Erdogan would gladly butcher Kurds. Saddam has already carried out a genocide against them by using chemical weapons to ethnically cleanse them.

Arabs and Turkey are quick to attack Israel for not being willing to give the Palestinians a state, but they are doing the same thing to the Kurds. Hypocrisy!

 

[Smores]

Always amazes me to see some of the posts on here. Sickening excuses for murdering civilians

 

[berbatrick]

At least Bernie is multitasking with a work call while making that statement.

 

[MJJ]

I wasn't present but I am reading reports on what was happening, not just headlines or snippets from journalists.

What reports?

This is BBC , no mention of the level of frenziness of the crowd.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44104599

 

[2mufc0]

No, that is what the West are doing to the Kurds. They have been complicit in this regard. They stand by and watch as Kurds are oppressed and brutalised.

But look at the selective outrage. That's what irks me. Arabs and the world media kick up a huge fuss when Israel responds to Hamas protests. But the Kurds have been brutalised by Arabs and Turks in Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. They want a sovereign state in their homeland. They have been persecuted since ages now. The international media have no interest in the plight of the Kurds. Arabs couldn't care less about the Kurds. Scum Erdogan would gladly butcher Kurds. Saddam has already carried out a genocide against them by using chemical weapons to ethnically cleanse them.

Arabs and Turkey are quick to attack Israel for not being willing to give the Palestinians a state, but they are doing the same thing to the Kurds. Hypocrisy!

One wrong doesn't make another right.

And you should really make a separate thread about it too, you clearly have a thing for Arabs and Turks so better to keep it in one thread than having to spill your agenda over into every other thread.

 

[Nikhil]

Why did Hamas throw Fatah out of Gaza? The UN has working relations with fatah right? They could have gotten a peace deal of some sort worked out. It would have prevented any escalation. But no, they kicked them out of Gaza and started a mini civil war amongst themselves.

If Fatah were in power in Gaza, who knows, all this bloodshed and conflict could have been prevented. There could also have been a two state solution agreed upon. Israel are far more willing to talk to Fatah than Hamas.

The poor Kurds have no one to talk to. Truly on their own. At least Gaza gets money from UAE and Qatar.

 

[oates]

Labour Apologists for Israel have particularly outdone themselves.

Would you mind clarifying or linking any reports please?

 

[mu4c_20le]

What reports?

This is BBC , no mention of the level of frenziness of the crowd.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44104599

There is no level from 1-10 and i used the word frenzy because i had read that there were people amongst them shouting instructions with a microphone, ordering the crowd to get closer to the fence. Tens of thousands of people didnt just show up to walk around in circles with their signs. Some reports state that incendiary devices and explosives were thrown. Do you agree that the Israelis also have a right to live, and to not be cooked alive in their body armour?

 

[Nikhil]

One wrong doesn't make another right.

And you should really make a separate thread about it too, you clearly have a thing for Arabs and Turks so better to keep it in one thread than having to spill your agenda over into every other thread.

It's not about two wrongs making a right or whatever you mean. It's about how the international media are quick and vociferous in their condemnation of Israel but appallingly silent when any other country does the same thing, or maybe even more severe. There is a clear agenda here. This double standard is disgraceful.

Israel are wrong, but when other countries do the same thing or even worse, no one seems to even care.

 

[oates]

There is no level from 1-10 and i used the word frenzy because i had read that there were people amongst them shouting instructions with a microphone, ordering the crowd to get closer to the fence. Tens of thousands of people didnt just show up to walk around in circles with their signs. Some reports state that incendiary devices and explosives were thrown. Do you agree that the Israelis also have a right to live, and to not be cooked alive in their body armour?

One Israeli Defence Force member reportedly has a slight shoulder injury from 'shrapnel' but the report states that they don't know what it was. Hardly being cooked alive.

I think we'd best stay off the hyperbole don't you?

 

[FreakyJim]

disgusting

 

[2mufc0]

It's not about two wrongs making a right or whatever you mean. It's about how the international media are quick and vociferous in their condemnation of Israel but appallingly silent when any other country does the same thing, or maybe even more severe. There is a clear agenda here. This double standard is disgraceful.

Israel are wrong, but when other countries do the same thing or even worse, no one seems to even care.

Maybe because these sorts of incidents don't happen as often in other countries.

As for the Kurds they have been getting plenty of good press during the Syrian civil war.

Most genocides / mass killings do get media attention, so not sure what you mean by agendas.

And talking about not caring, what do you think the consequences of these killings will be not the first time and won't be the last.

 

[adexkola]

It's not about two wrongs making a right or whatever you mean. It's about how the international media are quick and vociferous in their condemnation of Israel but appallingly silent when any other country does the same thing, or maybe even more severe. There is a clear agenda here. This double standard is disgraceful.

Israel are wrong, but when other countries do the same thing or even worse, no one seems to even care.

Agreed. I'm not going to throw the term "whataboutism" at you, because i think that when it is used in most cases, it is a conversation ender and proof that the user of the term has no interest in the nuance that provoked the original comparison. I think there is enough space to both condemn Israel and those who are committing the atrocities you speak about, that I am more ignorant about. Any material you can share regarding that issue?

 

[Dobba]

Would you mind clarifying or linking any reports please?

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[Synco]

There's a slight difference between regular protests we see across the world and what's happening in Gaza - with which Israel is in a state of war - in that the entire impulse behind these protests is to remove the barrier preventing Gazans from entering Israel.

Well if we limit the question to "what means are justified to prevent infiltration from an enemy territory?" then we can for sure have a discussion, because I don't know the answer. My instinct is that Israel has gone well over the top in this case and that less lethal means could have been successfully utilized. But I'm no expert on rules of engagement in cases such as these. It's hard to think of analogous situations.

That's pretty much where I'm at as well. Made kind of the same points some weeks ago in the ME thread:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/middle-east-politics.433633/page-27#post-22383286

In any case, discussion about this only makes sense when acknowledging that the campaign's declared aim is removing the border fence, which is very different from just throwing rocks (the established narrative in this thread). Sinwar at the beginning of the whole thing:

As thousands of Palestinians demonstrated along the Gaza border on Friday, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, speaking before protesters, warned that the Strip was ready to “explode in the face of the occupation.”

He said the world should “wait for our great move, when we breach the borders and pray at Al-Aqsa,” referring to the major Muslim shrine in Jerusalem.

Arriving at one of the demonstration sites, Sinwar received a hero’s welcome. He was surrounded by hundreds of supporters who chanted, “We are going to Jerusalem, millions of martyrs.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-hamas-leader-vows-to-breach-the-borders-and-pray-at-al-aqsa/

 

[oates]

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Thanks, those usual suspects.

 

[Smores]

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I always like to look at politicians twitter feeds for consistency on such issues. Odd how some politicians seem to be too busy today to comment on this humantarian tradgedy

 

[rotherham_red]

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Good God, the mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance involved to even think something like that is disturbing...

 

[rotherham_red]

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[MJJ]

There is no level from 1-10 and i used the word frenzy because i had read that there were people amongst them shouting instructions with a microphone, ordering the crowd to get closer to the fence. Tens of thousands of people didnt just show up to walk around in circles with their signs. Some reports state that incendiary devices and explosives were thrown. Do you agree that the Israelis also have a right to live, and to not be cooked alive in their body armour?

Again post the articles which are describing the situation as such.

How many casualties did Israel suffer again from this protest?

 

[esmufc07]

Corbyn's statement

Today’s killing of dozens of unarmed protesters and the wounding of many more by Israeli forces in Gaza is an outrage that demands not just international condemnation, but action to hold those responsible to account.

This slaughter follows weeks of killings of Palestinian civilians demonstrating for their right to return, most of whom are refugees or the families of refugees. Coming on the day President Trump moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, it underlines the threat to peace posed by the continuing and intolerable injustices faced by the Palestinian people.

The response from many western governments to this flagrant illegality, including our own – which bears a particular responsibility for a peaceful and just resolution of the Israel-Palestine conflict – has been wholly inadequate. They should take a lead from Israeli peace and justice campaigners: to demand an end to the multiple abuses of human and political rights Palestinians face on a daily basis, the 11-year siege of Gaza, the continuing 50-year occupation of Palestinian territory and the ongoing expansion of illegal settlements.

We cannot turn a blind eye to such wanton disregard for international law. That is why Labour is committed to reviewing UK arms sales to Israel while these violations continue.

The international community must at last put its collective authority and weight behind achieving a lasting settlement that delivers peace, justice and security for both Israelis and Palestinians, who have waited so long to achieve their rights.

 

[Achilles McCool]

Hamas haven't been involved in these protests, and despite that Israel have been murdering Palestinians for the past 7 weeks, so what exactly will change if Hamas does get involved?

Care to prove that point? Please tell me how you know this.
If we’re being honest, everyone on the Caf knows that Hamas has organised this protest and are directly involved.
Also, I can’t believe that people want to compare these “protestors” with other protestors around the world, and more specifically, western democrat protests!

 

[Traub]

Fitting, given their history.

I disagree. If anything, our history should prove the only way to peace is through dialogue, reconciliation and understanding of both sides. South Africa should be at the forefront of trying to bring the two parties together - not of taking sides.

 

[MJJ]

Care to prove that point? Please tell me how you know this.
If we’re being honest, everyone on the Caf knows that Hamas has organised this protest and are directly involved.
Also, I can’t believe that people want to compare these “protestors” with other protestors around the world, and more specifically, western democrat protests!

Fireworks/rocks thrown at police in montreal-zero killed.

http://calgarysun.com/news/national...sted/wcm/fb2e37fe-5b14-4578-9c21-aafa981f1125

Rocks thrown at police in DC-zero killed

http://wjla.com/news/local/proteste...town-dc-flash-bombs-rocks-thrown-arrests-made

Boston-zero killed

http://www.masslive.com/news/boston/index.ssf/2017/08/protesters_pushed_threw_punche.html

This from a two minute google search.

 

[sullydnl]

Care to prove that point? Please tell me how you know this.
If we’re being honest, everyone on the Caf knows that Hamas has organised this protest and are directly involved.
Also, I can’t believe that people want to compare these “protestors” with other protestors around the world, and more specifically, western democrat protests!

Accepting Hamas were involved, I still don't see how this justifies Israel's response? NI saw countless protests organised by terrorist organisations but nobody in their right mind would have defended a response this disproportionate from a British army.

(Not that NI is really in any way comparable to this situation, just as a specific point as to what response is justified by terrorist involvement in a protest).

 

[Mozza]

Care to prove that point? Please tell me how you know this.
If we’re being honest, everyone on the Caf knows that Hamas has organised this protest and are directly involved.
Also, I can’t believe that people want to compare these “protestors” with other protestors around the world, and more specifically, western democrat protests!

No rockets, no bombs, no firearms. Even if Hamas organised this protest the fact that it's largely non violent means Hamas has actually protested in the manner Israel has said they should for years, and it's still resulted in Palestinians being murdered by Israel

 

[space]

Disgusting, but not surprising. Shame on Israel and shame on the USA

 

[Jippy]

It's very sad, but for the last 20 or years I've felt these two sides would rather fight to the death than find a compromise and it's hard to change that view. Let's hope I'm wrong- maybe SA and NI prove there can be a way.

 

[rotherham_red]

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[Achilles McCool]

Again post the articles which are describing the situation as such.

How many casualties did Israel suffer again from this protest?

As the link that @Synco pointed out above, the Palestinian “protestors”, hundreds are screaming to be martyred or making it to Jerusalem to pray. Protestors usually don’t look to “martyr” themselves for a protest.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Care to prove that point? Please tell me how you know this.
If we’re being honest, everyone on the Caf knows that Hamas has organised this protest and are directly involved.
Also, I can’t believe that people want to compare these “protestors” with other protestors around the world, and more specifically, western democrat protests!

How dare we compare those filthy arabs to the great western protesters.

 

[MJJ]

As the link that @Synco pointed out above, the Palestinian “protestors”, hundreds are screaming to be martyred or making it to Jerusalem to pray. Protestors usually don’t look to “martyr” themselves for a protest.

Did you check the date of when that article was posted? That too from the times of Israel..

Please respond to my post about similar protests(rocks thrown at police,etc) which ended with noone dying as well.

 

[Spoony]

It's very sad, but for the last 20 or years I've felt these two sides would rather fight to the death than find a compromise and it's hard to change that view. Let's hope I'm wrong- maybe SA and NI prove there can be a way.

Except one side weren't 'fighting to the death', yet they still got slaughtered.

 

[Irrational.]

Amazing how Israel gets away with such mass genocide with impunity. No one speaks out. Trump has made the tensions even worse with his open support of Israel and failure to condemn their actions.

Absolutely disgusting, the world is going to shit.

 

[MJJ]

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The guy dying on the sofa was clearly threatening the other one and getting paid by Hamas.