Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Giggsy PO]

I believe there’s a longer six minute version of the video. The Israelis are going to be doing this every day or each time they come across something worth putting out. There’s an obvious propaganda quality to it, but that doesn’t mean the information is in any way inaccurate.

I agree. My point is that there are not many objective observers as you mentioned in your previous post.

 

[Raoul]

No, but the fact that they're caught lying on a daily basis sure as feck does. You can't trust anything Israel puts out at this point, because everything is tailored to suit their agenda (which is to make Gaza uninhabitable for Palestinians), and who knows how much of it is fabricated, planted or outright made up.

It's frankly baffling that you're so willing to just accept whatever Israel says, after what we've been seeing for the last couple of decades.

I’m willing to consider what both sides are saying. Hamas have been admitting they use their tunnels for fighting and not for protecting civilians - which is very believable. Likewise, the Israelis are corroborating in video what Hamas previously said about the tunnels. I don’t think anyone still denies that Hamas uses tunnels to fight, which is all the IDF are saying here.

 

[Raoul]

I agree. My point is that there are not many objective observers as you mentioned in your previous post.

I think there are quite a few, they just don’t post as often

 

[Kaos]

I believe there’s a longer six minute version of the video. The Israelis are going to be doing this every day or each time they come across something worth putting out. There’s an obvious propaganda quality to it, but that doesn’t mean the information is in any way inaccurate.

I think its safe to say the Israelis have lost any credibility based on recent precedence wouldn't you say? They've reached Comical Ali levels of sincerity. So even their genuine findings would be met with incredulity and rightly so.

 

[Raoul]

I think its safe to say the Israelis have lost any credibility based on recent precedence wouldn't you say? They've reached Comical Ali levels of sincerity. So even their genuine findings would be met with incredulity and rightly so.

No, I don't think so. There are occasional exaggerations and clumsiness in some of the Israeli releases, but they are ultimately incentivized to put out accurate information since they know not doing so will result in more damage than benefit to their objectives. The same can be applied to Hamas when it comes to casualty figures. I previously was highly skeptical of their numbers but have since concluded that as long as the numbers are not absurd, that they are more likely accurate than not. I think we have to be careful to fall into the trap of always only believing one side in this dispute, and should instead be considering what both sides are saying.

 

[The Corinthian]

No, I don't think so. There are occasional exaggerations and clumsiness in some of the Israeli releases, but they are ultimately incentivized to put out accurate information since they know not doing so will result in more damage than benefit to their objectives. The same can be applied to Hamas when it comes to casualty figures. I previously was highly skeptical of their numbers but have since concluded that as long as the numbers are not absurd, that they are more likely accurate than not. I think we have to be careful to fall into the trap of always only believing one side in this dispute, and should instead be considering what both sides are saying.

It's not just exaggerations and clumsiness though - you're downplaying it. It's total fabrication in some instances. It's Russian level of fantasy, which you're quite happy to call out in that instance, but not in this. How are you squaring that circle?

 

[Raoul]

It's not just exaggerations and clumsiness though - you're downplaying it. It's total fabrication in some instances. It's Russian level of fantasy, which you're quite happy to call out in that instance, but not in this. How are you squaring that circle?

That's absolutely not correct. The Russians are literally making nearly everything up for their internal audiences who are controlled by their own domestic propaganda with limited resources to know otherwise because they are conditioned by 24/7 hour misinformation of an authoritarian system. That is light years away from what a democratic nation is doing to get their message out. The problem is that some folks become incredibly uncomfortable with the idea that "the other side" might by putting accurate information out that is unflattering to the desired narrative, at which point people start making blanket statements denying anything coming out of one side. That's not a very productive way of approaching this from a balanced perspective.

 

[Pintu]

First official document from a western country confirming prior knowledge of these war crimes and the scale at which they were intended (“Dahiya doctrine”).

 

[The Corinthian]

That's absolutely not correct. The Russians are literally making nearly everything up for their internal audiences who are controlled by their own domestic propaganda with limited resources to know otherwise because they are conditioned by 24/7 hour misinformation of an authoritarian system. That is light years away from what a democratic nation is doing to get their message out. The problem is that some folks become incredibly uncomfortable with the idea that "the other side" might by putting accurate information out that is unflattering to the desired narrative, at which point people start making blanket statements denying anything coming out of one side. That's not a very productive way of approaching this from a balanced perspective.

What do you think hasbara is? It’s literally the government paying people to spread online propaganda, misinformation and fabrications. I guess the only difference (when compared to Russia) is that this is for external audience consumption as opposed to them deceiving their own citizens, but on balance, a lot of Israelis probably fall for it too. The sheer volume of fake stuff being put out is crazy when you really look at it.

That coupled with how they fabricate online translations, planting mein kampf, fake videos, fake audio…it’s a serious concerted effort to try and deceive the public or change the narrative. They’re as bad as the Russians with it.

 

[Halftrack]

I’m willing to consider what both sides are saying. Hamas have been admitting they use their tunnels for fighting and not for protecting civilians - which is very believable. Likewise, the Israelis are corroborating in video what Hamas previously said about the tunnels. I don’t think anyone still denies that Hamas uses tunnels to fight, which is all the IDF are saying here.

Are you being disingenuous? The purpose of that specific video is to justify bombing and besieging hospitals. An earlier photo of a "tunnel entrance" outside of a hospital turned out to be a shaft into a generator room. A photo of a man inside a hospital holding what was claimed to be a gun, but turned out to be a baton. Videos of prisoners, made by a captor known to treat Palestinian prisoners inhumanely and subject them to torture, talking about all the terrorism they plan and prepare in hospitals, schools, etc. because Israel never attack those, despite Israel having been attacking them for decades.

And that's just what they've put out relating to hospitals. There's also the pristine copy of Mein Kampf found on a dead Hamas fighter, the conversation in dodgy Arabic where a couple of Hamas guys conveniently admitted to accidentally exploding al-Ahli hospital, a phrase sheet in dodgy Arabic supposedly carried by Hamas fighters that proved they were planning to systematically rape Israelis, them making the case that journalists in Gaza knew of the attack in advance after people started noticing that a suspiciously high number of them were killed in their own homes. And that's just off the top of my head, and limited to the latest hostilities.

No, I don't think so. There are occasional exaggerations and clumsiness in some of the Israeli releases, but they are ultimately incentivized to put out accurate information since they know not doing so will result in more damage than benefit to their objectives.

This borders on the ridiculous. "Occasional exaggerations and clumsiness" is one of the all time great understatements. They're caught in spreading falsehoods on the regular, and have no reason to stop, because no matter how much they lie, and how many times they're caught doing so, there are people out there who will continue to take whatever they release at face value.

 

[Raoul]

What do you think hasbara is? It’s literally the government paying people to spread online propaganda, misinformation and fabrications. I guess the only difference (when compared to Russia) is that this is for external audience consumption as opposed to them deceiving their own citizens, but on balance, a lot of Israelis probably fall for it too. The sheer volume of fake stuff being put out is crazy when you really look at it.

That coupled with how they fabricate online translations, planting mein kampf, fake videos, fake audio…it’s a serious concerted effort to try and deceive the public or change the narrative. They’re as bad as the Russians with it.

Its a part of their communication strategy to explain what they are doing (from their perspective of course). I don't see anything wrong with that as long as the information is accurate. If it isn't then it obviously needs to be called out as such. The concern I have is that critics of Israel are needlessly cornering themselves into a situation where they feel the need to reflexively argue that night is day when presented with information that is contrary to their preferred narrative. The exact same thing appears to be happening in Israeli society where anything emanating from the Palestinian side is automatically regarded as a lie designed to support Khhhamas.

At the end of the day, there is an information war taking place where both sides are seeking to appeal to their respective core audiences. Its up to the people taking in the information to hold both sides to account.

 

[Pintu]

This is so funny… ridiculous propaganda.

 

[KikiDaKats]

The first casualty here was the truth from 10/7 and any one claiming a side is telling us the truth is full of it themself.

War is lies and it’ll never change. The best liar will inflict the bigger damage. Let’s wait and see who wins, we’ll then know who the better liar was, or accept the better lie.

 

[Donaldo]

With this level of stone age thinking, you will be be alienating any sympathies you get. You are further reinforcing Israel's 'animals' narrative.

How do you expect tolerance from your oppressors when you are showing to be intolerant yourselves?

I get this virtue signalling is very important on the internet (and rightly so when responding to a homophobe), but tarring every Palestinian with the same brush as some random username on RedCafe is beyond ridiculous. And you didn't do it just one, you did it in successive posts.

Easy to see the masks slip off sometimes.

 

[Donaldo]

Its a part of their communication strategy to explain what they are doing (from their perspective of course). I don't see anything wrong with that as long as the information is accurate. If it isn't then it obviously needs to be called out as such. The concern I have is that critics of Israel are needlessly cornering themselves into a situation where they feel the need to reflexively argue that night is day when presented with information that is contrary to their preferred narrative. The exact same thing appears to be happening in Israeli society where anything emanating from the Palestinian side is automatically regarded as a lie designed to support Khhhamas.

At the end of the day, there is an information war taking place where both sides are seeking to appeal to their respective core audiences. Its up to the people taking in the information to hold both sides to account.

There aren't "both sides" between a coloniser and the oppressed.

 

[Wibble]

There aren't "both sides" between a coloniser and the oppressed.

Of course there are when Hamas, a bunch of religiously fanatical and highly murderous terrorists, are involved. You don't have to be a fan of Israel to recognise that as well.

 

[Donaldo]

Of course there are when Hamas, a bunch of religiously fanatical and highly murderous terrorists, are involved. You don't have to be a fan of Israel to recognise that as well.

And murdering, EDIT : committing horrific war crimes and genocide on an indigenous population to get to Hamas is the one side?

Do tell me how they're different from Hamas. And please don't start history with 7th October.

 

[Wibble]

And murdering, EDIT : committing horrific war crimes and genocide on an indigenous population to get to Hamas is the one side?

Do tell me how they're different from Hamas. And please don't start history with 7th October.

Who said anything about Israel not behaving badly? Just that you have decided that there is only one side to this. As for ignoring the history/context of so many things seems to have started on the 8th of October, so as to ignore what kicked off the latest shit show in the region. Hamas knew exactly how Israel would react - it was what they wanted - and of course Israel obliged. There is lots and lots of blame to go around and little or none of it gets us closer to a solution either to the current violence or a longer term solution.

 

[Kaush949]

I get this virtue signalling is very important on the internet (and rightly so when responding to a homophobe), but tarring every Palestinian with the same brush as some random username on RedCafe is beyond ridiculous. And you didn't do it just one, you did it in successive posts.

Easy to see the masks slip off sometimes.

I acknowledge my poor choice of words. I intended to say 'yourself' instead of 'yourselves'.

For that I apologize.

 

[R'hllor]

It's not just exaggerations and clumsiness though - you're downplaying it. It's total fabrication in some instances. It's Russian level of fantasy, which you're quite happy to call out in that instance, but not in this. How are you squaring that circle?

Well thats different you know

 

[Ted Lasso]

Where does Hamas rank in the list of terrorist groups with respect to size, organization, threat posed etc compared to others like say Al Queda and ISIS?

 

[That_Bloke]

I don't think her translation is accurate. (purely isn't the only sense here). In Swedish I could use a similar adjective ("rent") to say "exclusively". That's how I understand the sentence she is quoting here... "Das sind doch keine reinen Deutschen" should be understood as "They're not solely Germans".

Absolutely not.

I speak German, the adjective "rein" is translated correctly, and the racial connotation in this context is evident for anyone speaking the language. She's right in saying that it's even worse than using "richtig" or "echt" (true). I'd also add that "doch" is used here to emphazise the argument and make it categoric.

If any, the correct sentence should've been "They're certainly not pure Germans".

 

[That_Bloke]

I don’t think independent observers can’t go into those places. They just have to know they’re taking their security into their own hands. The Israelis also have an embed program for journos who can travel into Gaza with them.

The IDF doesn't let any journalist or observer not embedded in Gaza.

Every channel, every single journalist tells you so. If you weren't there before October 7th, you can't go in.

 

[do.ob]

I don't think her translation is accurate. (purely isn't the only sense here). In Swedish I could use a similar adjective ("rent") to say "exclusively". That's how I understand the sentence she is quoting here... "Das sind doch keine reinen Deutschen" should be understood as "They're not solely Germans".

Why do you keep trying to lecture people on the finer points of German if you don't speak the language?
The sentence, as it is given in the article, is clearly racist language. No ifs and buts.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

Ok with it is a relative term. They don't want an influx of Palestinians though and they have resisted this for a long long time.

And they still resist the idea of accepting Palestinian refugees. That is why I scoff at the BS coming out from the mouths of those Middle Eastern governments on their "support" for Palestinians. If they care one bit about civilians, they better find a way to support their most urgent needs now and then keep the political games for later.

In comparison, a tiny nation named Macedonia (now North Macedonia) took a large chunk of Kosovar refugees (132,500 according to MSF back in April 1999) even though they were friendlier to Serbia than most other nations in the Balkans were during the late 1990s.

It will be hard for any objective non-gaslit observer to continue deny this stuff once it’s proven house to house each day.

Seeing those tunnels right underneath the children's hospital really fills me with rage because that is the epitome of not giving a feck about your own citizens. To think that Hamas, as Gaza's government body gone beyond its expiry date, swallowed hundreds of millions of dollars worthy of international aid into building that crap while life conditions inside Gaza were deteriorating even without the IDF, this is where I call out the amount of sheer stupidity when masses protest for Palestine without those valuable facts in mind.

 

[Raoul]

And they still resist the idea of accepting Palestinian refugees. That is why I scoff at the BS coming out from the mouths of those Middle Eastern governments on their "support" for Palestinians. If they care one bit about civilians, they better find a way to support their most urgent needs now and then keep the political games for later.

In comparison, a tiny nation named Macedonia (now North Macedonia) took a large chunk of Kosovar refugees (132,500 according to MSF back in April 1999) even though they were friendlier to Serbia than most other nations in the Balkans were during the late 1990s.



Seeing those tunnels right underneath the children's hospital really fills me with rage because that is the epitome of not giving a feck about your own citizens. To think that Hamas, as Gaza's government body gone beyond its expiry date, swallowed hundreds of millions of dollars worthy of international aid into building that crap while life conditions inside Gaza were deteriorating even without the IDF, this is where I call out the amount of sheer stupidity when masses protest for Palestine without those valuable facts in mind.

This is why their very existence was always going to end catastrophically. They squandered so much money and resources to build their tunnel infrastructure for the purpose of fighting, that could've been better used to build up Gaza. The Israelis are of course also complicit for going in reverse during the Netanyahu era, which resulted in both sides gradually securitizing and drifting towards their respective extremes.

 

[Raoul]

Where does Hamas rank in the list of terrorist groups with respect to size, organization, threat posed etc compared to others like say Al Queda and ISIS?

There's really no rank given that terrorism is subjective. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by the US, UK, Canada, the EU, & NATO plus Japan, and Australia. The Egyptians did as well until it was overturned in their courts. Egypt and Jordan have banned them as well.

In terms of a threat - they obviously only exist for the purpose of fighting and destroying Israel, so there's not much of a threat beyond that if they're confined to a small piece of land. That's unlike AQ, who were largely a decentralized group of cells operating in many countries.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

This is why their very existence was always going to end catastrophically. They squandered so much money and resources to build their tunnel infrastructure for the purpose of fighting that could've been better used to build up Gaza. The Israelis are of course also complicit for going in reverse during the Netanyahu era, which resulted in both sides gradually securitizing and drifting towards their respective extremes.

Knowing in what position Netanyahu's far-right coalition and Hamas were in their respective areas prior to October 7, it's obvious that this conflict will benefit the most to those increasingly marginalized extremes. Both should have been kicked out by their respective electorates by now. I really don't know what a Palestinian movement led by a new president in Marwan Barghouti would have looked like for Gaza, but it would certainly not look as bad as the last 16 years of Hamas have been.

There's really no rank given that terrorism is subjective. Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by the US, UK, Canada, the EU, & NATO plus Japan, and Australia. The Egyptians did as well until it was overturned in their courts. Egypt and Jordan have banned them as well.

In terms of a threat - they obviously only exist for the purpose of fighting and destroying Israel, so there's not much of a threat beyond that if they're confined to a small piece of land. That's unlike AQ, who were largely a decentralized group of cells operating in many countries.

The Global Terrorism Index has a list of the most potent and most dangerous groups in terms of deaths, incidents, hostages and injuries from terrorism, weighted over a five-year period. Hamas is not even mentioned in the most recent update from last March, but that might change come the next update of that index. Notice that there are a bunch of groups that we don't hear about and yet are really horrible by the numbers, especially in Africa.

 

[That_Bloke]

American-Israeli Holocaust scholar Omer Bartov on the distinction between ethnic cleansing and genocide in Gaza, the Apartheid regime applied to the West Bank, the corrupting effect of the Occupation on the Israeli society and its role in the highly criticized judiciary reform attempt by the the Netanyahu Government.

 

[2mufc0]

That's absolutely not correct. The Russians are literally making nearly everything up for their internal audiences who are controlled by their own domestic propaganda with limited resources to know otherwise because they are conditioned by 24/7 hour misinformation of an authoritarian system. That is light years away from what a democratic nation is doing to get their message out. The problem is that some folks become incredibly uncomfortable with the idea that "the other side" might by putting accurate information out that is unflattering to the desired narrative, at which point people start making blanket statements denying anything coming out of one side. That's not a very productive way of approaching this from a balanced perspective.

How mods even get away with trolling.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

And they still resist the idea of accepting Palestinian refugees. That is why I scoff at the BS coming out from the mouths of those Middle Eastern governments on their "support" for Palestinians. If they care one bit about civilians, they better find a way to support their most urgent needs now and then keep the political games for later.

In comparison, a tiny nation named Macedonia (now North Macedonia) took a large chunk of Kosovar refugees (132,500 according to MSF back in April 1999) even though they were friendlier to Serbia than most other nations in the Balkans were during the late 1990s.

This is the precise language the nazis used to justify how they treated Jews. No European country would accept them (including the UK), so they are obviously bad people who deserve it all.


I'd suggest to you that if you are using the same argument as hitler, you are not on the right side of the argument.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Interesting, and gut wrenching comparison

 

[Beachryan]

Just so I can catch up on the Caf position: the video of tunnels, weapons and what not found under a children's hospital - that was an elaborately staged fake by the IDF? Do I have that right?

Because if Hamas really does build war infrastructure under a children's hospital, I feel like it would force some pretty tough questions I'd love to hear opinions on.

Do the anti-Isreali posters really, honestly believe Hamas aren't doing this?

 

[Giggsy PO]

Just so I can catch up on the Caf position: the video of tunnels, weapons and what not found under a children's hospital - that was an elaborately staged fake by the IDF? Do I have that right?

Because if Hamas really does build war infrastructure under a children's hospital, I feel like it would force some pretty tough questions I'd love to hear opinions on.

Do the anti-Isreali posters really, honestly believe Hamas aren't doing this?

They know Hamas is doing this. They have just decided to ignore/twist/deny/lie about it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Just so I can catch up on the Caf position: the video of tunnels, weapons and what not found under a children's hospital - that was an elaborately staged fake by the IDF? Do I have that right?

Because if Hamas really does build war infrastructure under a children's hospital, I feel like it would force some pretty tough questions I'd love to hear opinions on.

Do the anti-Isreali posters really, honestly believe Hamas aren't doing this?

Why would anyone respond to this? You are coming here with a snarky tone and putting words in people's mouths.

 

[R'hllor]

They know Hamas is doing this. They have just decided to ignore/twist/deny/lie about it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

Whats their narrative

 

[Badunk]

I haven't seen anything that proves there are tunnels under the hospital. Has footage been released or something?

And posters who are anti-Israeli actions are not pro-Hamas. Please stop claiming otherwise.

 

[Badunk]

And, for the record, I wouldn't believe the Israelis if they told me I support Manchester United. They have lied through their teeth from the very start and have done so for decades.

 

[Beachryan]

Why would anyone respond to this? You are coming here with a snarky tone and putting words in people's mouths.

That's fair I guess. Apologies about the tone.

Do you believe Hamas has built war infrastructure under children's hospitals? If yes, what is the correct method of addressing that fact?

 

[2cents]

Where does Hamas rank in the list of terrorist groups with respect to size, organization, threat posed etc compared to others like say Al Queda and ISIS?

We’re talking very different types of organizations, despite having somewhat shared origins. Al Qaeda and ISIS are transnational, global jihadi organizations that regard expressions of nationalism as acts of blasphemy against God. They aim to overthrow regional governments and attack Western and other global targets when possible. They have traditionally appealed to and drawn much of their manpower from a tiny pool of Muslims from across the globe, but have struggled to consolidate a territorial basis - some notable exceptions being the ISIS caliphate of 2013-2016 and the current Al Qaeda run territory in Syria’s Idlib province. They lack mass appeal due to their indiscriminate violence and dogmatic sectarianism, and so their scope for action has tended to remain limited to war-torn peripheries. There are signs that the Al Qaeda aligned franchise groups in certain areas such as Syria have come to understand the alienating impact their actions have on local populations, and have attempted to adjust accordingly, but it remains to be seen if they can expand beyond regions already devastated by war.

Hamas on the other hand are an Islamo-Nationalist movement with a singular focus on the Palestinian cause. They are as much a political party and social movement as they are a “terrorist organization”, a term that really doesn’t capture what they’re about. They have deep roots among the Palestinian population of the occupied territories, and in particular Gaza, and can be regarded as a legitimate, mainstream expression of the broader Palestinian national movement, given their popularity and success over the last three and a half decades. They have never attacked targets outside Israel/Palestine, and do not accept non-Palestinian volunteers.* That said, they do have their origins in the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, and so acknowledge an ideological lineage which they share with al Qaeda and many other analogous organizations going all the way back to the 1930s.

Those working in Israeli intelligence understand the distinction. However from a popular Israeli perspective there is little difference. Like Al Qaeda and ISIS, Hamas have attacked Israeli civilians using suicide bombs, mass shootings, stabbings, car rammings, etc., and now it is claimed beheadings. It seems to the Israelis that, just like with Al Qaeda and ISIS attacks on Western targets, there is no limit to the violence Hamas is willing to inflict on them.

*(edit): actually I can think of at least one possible case. In 2003 during the Second Intifada two British suicide bombers attacked the well known bar Mike’s Place on the Tel Aviv beachfront, and they were subsequently claimed by Hamas.