Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[calodo2003]

It's always hilarious to me how Dems paint Trump like some kind of boogeyman and Biden just unflinchingly gave billion dollars to kill brown babies and the while liberals was like no he's still better than Trump.

He is still better.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

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[Gehrman]

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Holy crap!

 

[Giggsy PO]

That doesn't make him a holocaust denier. And we agree, no live holocaust happening right now.

EDIT: (took a while to find the website but here's a quote from Norman)



Source: Haunted House - Norman Finklestein

I don't know the context behind his endorsement of Irving, but Norman appears to be a complicated man so I don't know exactly what he's referring to, possibly that Irving had some good insight into WW2 from the Nazi perspective? Dunno. But I dont think he's denies that the holocaust happened.

Douglas Murray is a soundbite merchant and shouldn't be listened to. Especially after he shat his pants when Piers offered him to debate Norman.

Happy for people to have an opinion on Norman, as you clearly do but labelling someone a holocaust denier without concrete proof/more rational explanation is a bit silly, especially as he talks about his parents surviving the holocaust.

Here is the what judge Peter Liebtreu said about David Irving:

He showed no signs that he attempted to change his views after the arrest warrant was issued 16 years ago in Austria.... He served as an example for the right wing for decades. He is comparable to a prostitute who hasn't changed her ways.... Irving is a falsifier of history and anything but a proper historian. In the world of David Irving there were no gas chambers and no plan to murder the Jews. He's continued to deny the fact that the Holocaust was genocide orchestrated from the highest ranks of the Nazi state.

Here is what Norman Filkenstein said about David Irving (knowing very well all of the above):

David Irving was a very good historian – I don’t care what Richard Evans (the historian who was a key player in the Lipstadt libel trial) says. He produced works that are substantive…If you don’t like it, don’t read it. In the case of Irving, he knew a thing or two – or three.”

It is not that complicated. He is clever not* to deny it outright. I am sure you checked his wiki page:

In October 2020, Finkelstein published an extract from his forthcoming book, Cancel Culture, Academic Freedom and Me on his website following the banning of Holocaust denial from Facebook and Twitter. According to Finkelstein, "Holocaust denial should be taught in university and preferably by a Holocaust denier" as a means "to inoculate students" against it. He states: "If one is committed to the purity of truth, not just in its wholeness but also in its parts, then a Holocaust denier performs the useful function of ferreting out 'local' errors, precisely because he is a devil’s advocate—that is, fanatically committed to 'unmasking' the 'hoax of the 20th century.'

So I guess, racism should be also taught at universities. Preferably by racists. I will repeat: his opinions are sick and despicable.

edit: I obviously meant not* to deny outright. Sorry for the mistake.

 

[Giggsy PO]

When I say the thread can not go lower, you surprise me with yet a mind boggling post. How are you still allowed to post here I can not comprehend.

Ask the mods.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Here is the what judge Peter Liebtreu said about David Irving:



Here is what Norman Filkenstein said about David Irving (knowing very well all of the above):



It is not that complicated. He is clever to deny it outright. I am sure you checked his wiki page:



So I guess, racism should be also taught at universities. Preferably by racists. I will repeat: his opinions are sick and despicable.

Imagine misreading this statement so bad? Strawman much.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Palestinians have every right to resist the occupation of their territories and that includes armed resistance, that's not me saying it but the international law. Soldiers and military checkpoints or bases are legitimate targets but not civilians, under any circumstances. The same right to self-defense that's been hammered ad nauseam by well, everyone, can't be invoked by Israel because it's an occupying power.

Israel has been on the wrong side of History since 1967 (and that's letting the Nakba in 1948 slide) and no amount of mental gymnastics and/or victim blaming will ever change that.

Stabing children is armed resistance? Baking children in oven is armed resistance?

What side of history is ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab world in 1920s, 1930s and well after 1948?

 

[2cents]

Here is the what judge Peter Liebtreu said about David Irving:



Here is what Norman Filkenstein said about David Irving (knowing very well all of the above):



It is not that complicated. He is clever to deny it outright. I am sure you checked his wiki page:



So I guess, racism should be also taught at universities. Preferably by racists. I will repeat: his opinions are sick and despicable.

It’s Finkelstein at his dumb worst. Very much Chomsky’s son in that regard. Not enough for them to defend Irving and Faurisson’s right to publish Holocaust denial free from state prosecution, they have to go that bit further and defend their value as historians.

 

[That_Bloke]

Stabing children is armed resistance? Baking children in oven is armed resistance?

What side of history is ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab world in 1920s, 1930s and well after 1948?

Quite the wild claim.

You gotta work on your reading comprehension skills, unless dodging the points I've made and whataboutism is your way of debating.

 

[Giggsy PO]

It absolutely does worth bearing the nature of the messenger as well as the message itself. I suspect you always take whatever statements from Hamas with a pinch of salt and understandably so, why so would you then offer more credibility for someone who has their own wider agenda, and one that's notoriously laden with bigoted, ill-researched sentiment?

There is a big difference. If the question is to establish basic facts of course I do not believe a word Hamas says. Its all war propaganda with aim to enhance their objectives. And vice versa I accept somebody sees IDF that way. Fair enough. Here we need to question the nature of messenger, the motivation, agenda, and so on.

Even if you ignore Murray's motivations, his rebuttal was also nonsense if you take it at face value. He accused Finkelstein of exploiting his family's experiences with the holocaust to justify his sentiments which is nonsense considering Finkelstein historically doesn't like using the holocaust card, and in this instance it was Piers Morgan who brought it into the conversation. Not to mention his complete and utter adherence to the Israeli side of events, which recent history has shown us is far beyond the realms of authentic or objective.

When talking about opinions I guess we can grant ourselves privilege to abstract all that and take it at face value. Without unnecessarily repeating myself, I found comparison of Gaza to concentration camps and all implications from it to be abhorrent. I will leave it at that.

His whole segment was a joke, he was gratuitously given a 5 minute uninterrupted monologue by Piers Morgan for him to spout his nonsense, and when asked as to whether he would debate Finkelstein, he turned it down. You'd think someone confident with their convictions would jump at the opportunity to cross-examine someone like Finkelstein personally.

I can see why people are angry with that because it is quite unusual from Morgan to let somebody speak uninterpreted for 15 seconds (unless you are Zlatan or Ronaldo). I am not here to defend Morgan. Although the segment with Corbyn was excellent. I enjoyed that very much. But having said that I do not see much point in discussions like Rabbi Shmuley Boteach and Mohammed Hijab. There is no added value in direct confrontation like that.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Quite the wild claim.

You gotta work on your reading comprehension skills, unless dodging the points I've made and whataboutism is your way of debating.

And your way of debating is making general conclusions on almost 56+ years of history?

You gotta work on your reading.

 

[RedC]

Here is the what judge Peter Liebtreu said about David Irving:



Here is what Norman Filkenstein said about David Irving (knowing very well all of the above):



It is not that complicated. He is clever to deny it outright. I am sure you checked his wiki page:



So I guess, racism should be also taught at universities. Preferably by racists. I will repeat: his opinions are sick and despicable.

Not sure you grasp what is being said in the things you've posted.

 

[That_Bloke]

And your way of debating is making general conclusions on almost 56+ years of history?

You gotta work on your reading.

Yeah, you ain't worth of the effort.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Yeah, you ain't worth of the effort.

The feeling is mutual.

 

[space]

May Palestine be free

 

[Giggsyking]

He is still better.

For you as a US citizen, there is off course a difference between them which I understand and respect. But for someone like me who cares only about US external politics I see no difference between any US president specifically in relation to US involvement in wars.

Biden was the main character in the democratic party who orchestraed and twisted the truth to make the US invasion of Iraq possible and as a result destabilising the whole region for decades.

 

[calodo2003]

For you as a US citizen, there is off course a difference between them which I understand and respect. But for someone like me who cares only about US external politics I see no difference between any US president specifically in relation to US involvement in wars.

Biden was the main character in the democratic party who orchestraed the twisted the truth to make the US invasion of Iraq possible and as a result destabilising the whole region for decades.

Of course there's going to be differences of opinion depending on global location, but to think the US external policies outside of warmongering won't be better under Biden than Trump, it's close to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Explain please the 'orchestration of the twisting of truth to make the US invasion of Iraq possible falling' on Biden in here or DM. Something isn't clicking in my brain.

 

[Raoul]

Of course there's going to be differences of opinion depending on global location, but to think the US external policies outside of warmongering won't be better under Biden than Trump, it's close to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Explain please the 'orchestration of the twisting of truth to make the US invasion of Iraq possible falling' on Biden in here or DM. Something isn't clicking in my brain.

Probably a good chat for the Biden Presidency thread.

 

[VorZakone]

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[VorZakone]

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[Mike Smalling]

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Why the feck is this child involved in stuff like this? What is wrong with the world?

 

[VorZakone]

Why the feck is this child involved in stuff like this? What is wrong with the world?

No idea but he has some serious pull regardless. Wonder if he requested this or was invited to by Israel.

 

[VorZakone]

Strong statement from Borrell?

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[VorZakone]

More hostages to be released?

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[Tibs]

Holy crap!

Israel and murdering innocent people, go together like fish and chips, cheese and tomato, bread and butter....

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Why the feck is this child involved in stuff like this? What is wrong with the world?

Control social media posting?

 

[VorZakone]

"Israel took the bait".

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[nickm]

Why the feck is this child involved in stuff like this? What is wrong with the world?

He's a hugely powerful person and media influencer who has been accused of antisemitism...?

 

[Raoul]

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Concerning...

 

[Raoul]

Note: this post links to wartime propaganda. The first casualty of war is the truth. All reports claiming bad behavior by the other side during wartime should be treated with skepticism.

Feel free to use the ignore feature instead of responding to each post with the same thing.

 

[Belisarius]

Feel free to use the ignore feature instead of responding to each post with the same thing.

The ignore feature only blocks me from seeing his links when what I seek to do is warn others.

 

[2cents]

Qatar claiming they’ve secured a two-day extension to the ceasefire.

 

[Raoul]

The ignore feature only blocks me from seeing his links when what I seek to do is warn others.

In that case, please PM him and have a chat about your concerns.

 

[Pintu]

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[The Corinthian]

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Great news.

 

[Raoul]

Qatar claiming they’ve secured a two-day extension to the ceasefire.

I'd be surprised if this can continue for much longer since Hamas aren't incentivized to keep giving hostages back and simply only get Palestinians freed in return, knowing the Israelis are planning on getting rid of Hamas in Gaza. Hamas also may not have access to all the hostages on the overall Israeli list, which will be another sticking point.

 

[adexkola]

I'd be surprised if this can continue for much longer since Hamas aren't incentivized to keep giving hostages back and simply only get Palestinians freed in return, knowing the Israelis are planning on getting rid of Hamas in Gaza. Hamas also may not have access to all the hostages on the overall Israeli list, which will be another sticking point.

Yeah we know that's not possible

 

[Raoul]

Yeah we know that's not possible

We actually don't since it hasn't happend yet. Routing the entire northern half of Gaza in a few weeks is only the beginning and they're not going to stop until Hamas are removed, since they have decided the old way of co-existing with an Iranian proxy on their borders was a bad idea.

 

[Raoul]

The editor in chief of Haaretz

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[Pintu]

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