Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Belisarius]

I thought we were discussing the origin of the Hamas attacks, whether Iran sponsored them directly and are directing them, and the likelyhood of a planned escalation in a multi-pronged attack by Hezbollah entering the conflict. US intelligence itself believes that Iran are surprised by the attack, and there would be no military justification for holding back Hezbollah. You'd need to have a reason why Hezbollah waiting to attack [for Israels troops to be committed in Gaza] would be rational.

They've waited for them to setup supply chains, for the US to have a CSG and CAG groups in the region, and for the Iron dome to be fully replenished and preloaded with extra ammo. It's only 200km from Gaza to lebanon; you're talking a maximum of 6-8 hours to move heavy armour and artillery, whilst the IAF and Delilah/PH would have instant range, as well as their own naval assets. Hezbollahs biggest asset is their huge array of rockets. Based on what I've read, listened to, and briefed I don't think it's rational. And I do think that analysts are equipped to answer those sort of questions. (I respect your position to think differently; some still do, though not the US government)

ps. I also think some US direct action is possible if they can coordinate with Israel under article 50. I'm not sure its worth its own post at this point, but they seem postured to do so, or at least have the capability.

Raoul was responding to a question I posed of whether people thought Hamas had something else planned. Because if they don't, it is hard for me to understand the reasoning behind their original attack.

I have heard the theory that it is coordinated by Iran and Hezbollah may get involved. But, I haven't seen anything that makes me believe this theory, though of course Hezbollah may join the fighting if their people get angry enough about what is now occurring in Gaza.

But, if Hamas made the decision to initiate this on their own, surely they must have had something else in mind beyond the initial attack.

 

[R'hllor]

This was debunked days ago.

Good debunk

 

[Superden]

Wasnt your solution to arm Hamas with nukes?

Wasn't yours killing as many Palestinians as possible?

 

[owlo]

That's great insight, thanks! Pallywood and the captured media
...

Gonna stress that it's important to note that whilst the other evacuee video looks fairly conclusive that it was Hamas strike on their own civilians, there's no evidence in this one. The way its staged with bodies on the trailer + a lack of crater and intact trailer though strongly suggests it wasn't an airstrike or artillery hit.

 

[JPRouve]

It doesn't seem to be contentious, but universally accepted. I feel that most people here think that Palestinian terrorism towards Jews in Palestine started with the creation of Israel, as a resistance movement. Which is incorrect to my knowledge.

If people are using this as a basis for their arguments ie. This is a consequence of colonialism and Israel, those arguments are somewhat moot.

I don't think anyone has suggested that but I may have missed it. Now the interesting thing about that angle is that terror against palestinians is also not something that started with Israel, Lehi being an example.

 

[owlo]

Wasn't yours killing as many Palestinians as possible?

No, although that'd be infinitely preferable to giving Hamas nukes.

 

[berbatrick]

This was debunked days ago.

I literally got it as an ad on twitter. I do fear that Pallywood has taken to impersonating the official Israel account there

 

[2cents]

It doesn't seem to be contentious, but universally accepted. I feel that most people here think that Palestinian terrorism towards Jews in Palestine started with the creation of Israel, as a resistance movement. Which is incorrect to my knowledge.

If people are using this as a basis for their arguments ie. This is a consequence of colonialism and Israel, those arguments are somewhat moot.

Ah I understand. It’s quite simple, violence was a feature of Palestinian resistance to Zionism from the very early days, but remained localized until the British mandate. Then took on a progressively national character through the Nebi Musa riots of 1920, the Jaffa riots of 1921, the countrywide violence of 1929 (after which you could argue there was no turning back for either side), and finally the full on Palestinian national revolt of 1936-39.

 

[R'hllor]

I literally got it as an ad on twitter. I do fear that Pallywood has taken to impersonating the official Israel account there

Like he works in their PR department

 

[owlo]

I don't think anyone has suggested that but I may have missed it. Now the interesting thing about that angle is that terror against palestinians is also not something that started with Israel, Lehi being an example.

I'm thinking of attacks on Jewish civilians well before the 1940s, way back to the early 20th century, from before the Balfour declaration to things like this in the 1920s. We even get beheaded babies, Cafferata was part of the Irish Police, 2nd in charge. He saved many from the massacre.

 

[carvajal]

Is Qatar completely untouchable?I am referring to sanctions or even criticism .
Does such open complicity with terrorists go unpunished?

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[Raoul]

Is Qatar completely untouchable?I am referring to sanctions or even criticism .
Does such open complicity with terrorists go unpunished?

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The Qataris have been allowing Hamas leaders free access to live there and use it as a base for years. Probably not the wisest choice knowing the Mossad's reach.

 

[frostbite]

Does anyone know of any reliable poll about what Palestinians who immigrated to Western Europe believe about Hamas? What percentage of them support Hamas?

 

[11101]

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They are in Jordan, a stones throw away. Not sure how easy it'd be for the IAF to hook them up to their systems, but they are the right type. Might be giving the bombs and keeping the planes for now in reserve.

Carried GBU-38s and sidewinders for the nerds amongst us (the bombs of the types the IAF are dropping on Gaza)

I expect this is to remind Iran and Hezbollah that its not just Israel they'll be facing if they get any ideas in the North. The US is posturing to be the one to keep a lid on the conflict getting out of hand and that might mean stopping an attack from Lebanon in its tracks.

 

[carvajal]

The Qataris have been allowing Hamas leaders free access to live there and use it as a base for years. Probably not the wisest choice knowing the Mossad's reach.

Thank you, I didn't know it was so clamorous. One imagines the leaders of a terrorist group, and more so after recent events, in the shadows, and not meeting so clearly with a minister, and with the approval of a country that has business with all western countries

 

[Raoul]

Question I have is...would Hamas stop launching rockets regardless of Israels policies?

Almost certainly not given they are committed to Israel's destruction, which is among many reasons the Israelis would not negotiate anything substantive with them, never mind anything related to a peace deal involving the security of their country.

Here's one of Hamas' founders just a couple of years ago.



The Israelis have of course known this all along.

This past week's events has reinforced his view, as well as shown the extent to which Hamas will go if allowed to exist within miles of Israeli communities.

 

[Superden]

I'm thinking of attacks on Jewish civilians well before the 1940s, way back to the early 20th century, from before the Balfour declaration to things like this in the 1920s. We even get beheaded babies, Cafferata was part of the Irish Police, 2nd in charge. He saved many from the massacre.

Bottom of that page mentions another one of your heroes. rabbi Moshe levinger, the nut job even regarded as a terrorist by the Israelis. Arrested once for attacking a 6 yr old. Another one who enjoyed killing Palestinian civilians...

 

[Pintu]

Germany keeps embarrassing itself…

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Meanwhile Macron & some of the other European leaders (started with Ireland and Norway yesterday) are starting to open their eyes to the catastrophe in Gaza.

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[RedTiger]

It doesn't seem to be contentious, but universally accepted. I feel that most people here think that Palestinian terrorism towards Jews in Palestine started with the creation of Israel, as a resistance movement. Which is incorrect to my knowledge.

If people are using this as a basis for their arguments ie. This is a consequence of colonialism and Israel, those arguments are somewhat moot.

No point going that far back otherwise Lehi and Irgun becomes part of the conversation.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Germany keeps embarrassing itself…

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Meanwhile Macron & some of the other European leaders (started with Ireland and Norway yesterday) are starting to open their eyes to the catastrophe in Gaza.

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So Israel suffers an horrific terrorist attack, with thousands of civilians killed and dozens kidnapped, and Germany is 'embarrassing itself' by claiming that Israel the right to self defence?

And no, the 'narrative' from western leadership is not changing. France has urged caution, Norway said the exact same - that they have the right to self defence, but condemned the order to evacuate a million in Gaza. The western world will, by and large continue to support Israel.

 

[Raoul]

Germany keeps embarrassing itself…

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Meanwhile Macron & some of the other European leaders (started with Ireland and Norway yesterday) are starting to open their eyes to the catastrophe in Gaza.

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Macron hasn't said much different than Scholz.

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[jadaba]

Is Qatar completely untouchable?I am referring to sanctions or even criticism .
Does such open complicity with terrorists go unpunished?

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In honesty I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this. Qatar has placed itself over the past decade and a half as the key regional mediator, and regardless of Hamas’ crimes they are an important actor in this, not just in impacting the conflict but in governing 2 million people. Countries have to work with t. There is a strong logic in speaking with them. I don't think any country in the region (other than Israel) has even designated it as a terrorist organisation, and a lot of Western countries consider it as a complex network and have only designated their military wing as a terror organisation.

 

[11101]

The Qataris have been allowing Hamas leaders free access to live there and use it as a base for years. Probably not the wisest choice knowing the Mossad's reach.

I think it's chosen on purpose. These people are there under Qatar's guarantee and Qatar is a key US ally arguably as important as Israel, Israel isn't going to risk America's wrath by topping these guys on Qatari soil. Hamas knew what they were doing putting them there.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Macron hasn't said much different than Scholz.

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Western leaders giving Israel cart Blanche to cause a humanitarian disaster is shameful, let’s be honest

 

[Pintu]

Macron hasn't said much different than Scholz.

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That part isn’t embarrassing.

But check the date of your tweet and the recent ones. It’s the position of everyone. The current position of most in the EU is to help the civilians in Gaza. And to put an end to the violence.

This is different from the previous “unconditional support to Israel”..

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I am yet to see any officials from Germany, the UK or the US refer to the necessity to end this humanitarian crisis.

 

[VorZakone]

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[VorZakone]

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[Mogget]

So Israel suffers an horrific terrorist attack, with thousands of civilians killed and dozens kidnapped, and Germany is 'embarrassing itself' by claiming that Israel the right to self defence?

And no, the 'narrative' from western leadership is not changing. France has urged caution, Norway said the exact same - that they have the right to self defence, but condemned the order to evacuate a million in Gaza. The western world will, by and large continue to support Israel.

Yes, because bombing hospitals and killing twice as many civilians isn't self defence but revenge. So it's pretty embarrassing for Germany to refer to it as self defence.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Manchie]

So Israel suffers an horrific terrorist attack, with thousands of civilians killed and dozens kidnapped, and Germany is 'embarrassing itself' by claiming that Israel the right to self defence?

And no, the 'narrative' from western leadership is not changing. France has urged caution, Norway said the exact same - that they have the right to self defence, but condemned the order to evacuate a million in Gaza. The western world will, by and large continue to support Israel.

Of course, it is embarrassing if they accept that the occupier has the right to self-defense but deny the victim the right to fight back. If the conflict were on territories UN mandated for Israel in 1948, self-defense would have made sense, even though it was an unfair decision. Now, Israel controls a huge swath of land and is illegally applying its own laws over the land of others through settlements.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Yes, because bombing hospitals and killing twice as many civilians isn't self defence but revenge. So it's pretty embarrassing for Germany to refer to it as self defence.

Can you find a source that Israel has bombed a hospital during its current operations?

Israel's military at least attempts to take measures to spare civilian life, like pre-warning locals when an area is about to be hit and roof-knocking before airstrikes.

Hamas on the other hand, specifically targets civilians; their modus operandi is not dissimilar to the playbook of ISIS.

 

[RedTiger]

Western leaders giving Israel cart Blanche to cause a humanitarian disaster is shameful, let’s be honest

It's short sighted. It's only going to make non-western nations more acceptable of a multi-polar world.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Can you find a source that Israel has bombed a hospital during its current operations?

Israel's military at least attempts to take measures to spare civilian life, like pre-warning locals when an area is about to be hit and roof-knocking before airstrikes.

Hamas on the other hand, specifically targets civilians; their modus operandi is not dissimilar to the playbook of ISIS.

There are plenty of witness accounts that say that Israel does not always give warnings. And they have bombed hospitals in previous wars with the unproven accusations that Hamas was there. And in case you weren't following, they bombed a truck full of civilians as it was exciting northern Gaza, along with bombing the one realistic exit Palestinans can go out of Gaza from after they told them to leave.

Israel has no care for Palestinans lives, if they had even an ounce of it they wouldn't have removed their electricity, water and food. They've used white phosphorus on civilians, they bring down areas of building knowing there are many innocent civilians there.

Their ultimate aim has always been to terrorize the Palestinan population to leave Gaza so they can take over that land and complete their Zionist endeavor to make the whole land Jewish.

 

[RedTiger]

Their ultimate aim has always been to terrorize the Pakistan population to leave Gaza so they can take over that land and complete their Zionist endeavor to make the whole land Jewish.

You mean Palestinians.

 

[hasanejaz88]

You mean Palestinians.

Autocorrect on my phone.

People might think I'm an antisemite nutjob because of my hatred for the Israeli government, but I'm not that antisemite nutjob enough like some Pakistanis who think Jews are behind everything bad in our country.

 

[Pintu]

Can you find a source that Israel has bombed a hospital during its current operations?

There were reports of a pédiatrie hospital hit… there is confirmation of many ambulances being targeted.

And what do you think depriving them of electricity.

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Israel's military at least attempts to take measures to spare civilian life, like pre-warning locals when an area is about to be hit and roof-knocking before airstrikes.

This is pure propaganda…

Actually they aren’t even pretending to care anymore.

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[jadaba]

It's short sighted. It's only going to make non-western nations more acceptable of a multi-polar world.

I'm seeing countries like China and Russia get so much love from my Arab friends right now simply because their rhetoric has been more considerate of Palestinians in this. There's always been a perception that Western states are only really concerned in international law and upholding human rights when it's in their interest, but I think the strength of that perception is being irreversibly hardened right now in the minds of people, and setting a pretty easy precedent for future bad-actor non Western governments to refer to.

If/when China invades Taiwan, Western call to arms on territorial integrity, proportionality, upholding international law etc. will unfortunately sound entirely hollow for governments and people in the 'global South'.

 

[2mufc0]

It's short sighted. It's only going to make non-western nations more acceptable of a multi-polar world.

It does feel different this time speaking to people on the other side of the world. You can't be this hyporcrital and think you can get away with it in the long term, people won't forget. It's just a reflection of the poor quality of politicians around at the moment, they're all pretty awful.

 

[Pintu]

It's short sighted. It's only going to make non-western nations more acceptable of a multi-polar world.

It is beyond ridiculous and suicidal… We already have war in Europe (20% of Ukraine still occupied). China is threatening the World order and we are busy helping an ally commit massive war crimes, that might turn many of our allies against us or at least indifferent to our interests… Just look at BRICS integrating Argentina and UAE…

Even Iran & Syria, if you think of the people, they are much closer to the west historically/culturally and we have every chance of getting friendly countries to us once that regime is weakened… but we’ve done everything to push Iran to China.

 

[VorZakone]

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